Assumption Vs.Dormition

[chrisb]

Yes, but as i have said before… SO WHAT?!

you are saying that we are wrong simply because we are not byzantines.

Latins focused more on the assumption, so that became our tradition. I do not think anything is necessarily lost by focusing on the assumption.

Just because the latin rite of Catholicism does not have a particular feast set aside for the dormition does not mean we don’t believe it.

I’m not trying to say that ‘you’ are wrong to celebrate the Assumption of Our Lady The Theotokos. All that I am saying is that the Liturgical Calendar should be ‘complete’ as it is the primary vehicle to passing on the Faith. Perhaps with the changes in the Western Church over the past 30 years the Latin Rite has forgotten that. I think it was rash for the Western Church to throw out so much of it’s ancient liturgy to create something to appeal to their ‘separated brethren’ and not also maintain consensus with the Orthodox Churches of the East. If you have ever attended the Divine Liturgies of Sts. James, Basil and John Chyrsostom you would realize the depth of Theology which is present. I don’t see that depth within the Liturgies of the Latin Rite and I see it as a mistake to not have ‘enriched’ the Liturgies when you had the chance. Instead you watered them down to the point that really very little is taught in the modern Roman Catholic Mass. I honestly feel like that ‘was’ a mistake. The Assumption without the Dormition is just an example. Once the Church was One. It may well be One again but not by watering down what we believe in order to bring in those who are actually not of one faith. The Liturgy is the primary vehicle for this and it’s beauty is to reflect heaven on earth. I am saddened by the state of the Roman Church and it’s Liturgies but I don’t say that to antagonize Roman Catholics. The Western Church needs to revive itself and it’s liturgy for good of all.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

BEFORE PROCEEDING ANY FURTHER: I should like to note that this thread is the fourth site which shows up on a google search for “dormition mary western theology.” Just thought that was interesting! I feel special somehow

I think your last post makes some assumptions about Latins in general, the various Western Rites, andm though probably not intentionally, my personalyy feelings about them. I’m going to break up the post and reply bit by bit.

I’m not trying to say that ‘you’ are wrong to celebrate the Assumption of Our Lady The Theotokos. All that I am saying is that the Liturgical Calendar should be ‘complete’ as it is the primary vehicle to passing on the Faith. Perhaps with the changes in the Western Church over the past 30 years the Latin Rite has forgotten that.

I am glad to see that our debate has stemmed from your great respect for the liturgical calendar; you are correct, it is one of the primary means we have of presenting our faith to God, to ourselves, and to others. So i agree with you, the liturgical calendar should be “completel.”

But what exactly does it mean for the calendar to be complete? It has always been true, for example, that certain areas have placed special emphasis on certain saints or practices. I think the “completion” of the calendar could be said to vary from place to place. For example, the liturgical calendar of Ireland would be entirely incomplete if the feast of St Patrick were not present in a big way. But the liturgical calendar of say, parts of Africa or Asia could be complete without placing such a huge emphasis on him, focusing instead on more local saints. That is why in Catholicism different nations can have some different holy days of obligation, etc.

As it concerns our present debate, i do not think the Roman Rite’s calendar is “incomplete” because it lacks a feast for the Dormition. Latins, as far as i can tell from some initial research, never had specific feats for the Dormition and the Assumption, or if they did, they were combined rather early.

I think it is true to say that in the Latin feast of the Assumption, elements of the Dormition are indeed included. Both are comemorated, yet they are not seen so sperarately as they are in the East. Latins have always focused more on her glorious assumption to heaven. We never really saw her dormition as seperate from that, just a “first step,” if you will.

I think it was rash for the Western Church to throw out so much of it’s ancient liturgy to create something to appeal to their ‘separated brethren’ and not also maintain consensus with the Orthodox Churches of the East. If you have ever attended the Divine Liturgies of Sts. James, Basil and John Chyrsostom you would realize the depth of Theology which is present. I don’t see that depth within the Liturgies of the Latin Rite and I see it as a mistake to not have ‘enriched’ the Liturgies when you had the chance. Instead you watered them down to the point that really very little is taught in the modern Roman Catholic Mass. I honestly feel like that ‘was’ a mistake. The Assumption without the Dormition is just an example.

Here i think you accidentally make an assumption about me and many other Latins. Firstly, i would agree wholeheartedly that the recent liturgical reforms were foolish and imprudent. I also agree that when the liturgical reforms did take place, it was a complete mistake to emphasize ecumenism with lutherans and anglicans rather than with the Orthodox, where it should have been placed.

Secondly, I have indeed attended a Byzantine Liturgy of St. John Chyrsostom, in the local Orthodox church by my college (it is of the Greek Archdiocese, under the Ecumenical Patriarch). I love the Byzantine rite, its beauty, and how deeply theological it is. You are right in that regard. I plan to go back for their Greek Festival shortly after school starts, as well as for some feasts throughout the year.

I do object, however, to your accusation that the Latin rite is not just as theological, beautiful, and deep as the Byzantine. I agree with you that the liturgical forms which ended int he creation of the New Mass were tragic. I do find the new mass, at best, somehwat lacking in depth and beauty. But you must remember that the new mass is merely the Ordinary Form of our rite. The Extraordinary Form is as beautiful, deep, theological, and ancient as the Byzantine liturgies. Have you ever attended or, even seen videos perhaps, of a celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass? I think in it you will find more of what you are used to seeing in the Byzantine rite.

However, i dont feel like having the Assumption without the Dormition is necessarily an example of this “watering down,” because we did not have a feast for the Dormition before the reforms either, because, as I explained above, we have traditionally combined them and emphasized the Assumption.

Please take a look at some of the extra-liturigical traditions associated with the feast of the Assumption, before the liturgical reforms. I think you may find them interesting:

fisheaters.com/customstimeafterpentecost6.html

Once the Church was One. It may well be One again but not by watering down what we believe in order to bring in those who are actually not of one faith. The Liturgy is the primary vehicle for this and it’s beauty is to reflect heaven on earth. I am saddened by the state of the Roman Church and it’s Liturgies but I don’t say that to antagonize Roman Catholics. The Western Church needs to revive itself and it’s liturgy for good of all.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here, as do MANY Latins. I hope you will join us in prayer for the advancement of the Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace belgianwaffles9,

I would like to address some of your point but I’m rushing to go to Great Vespers. I’ve enjoyed our discussion, I don’t honestly think of it as a debate personally, and I appreciate your spirit of kindness toward me even if some of my comments come across as a bit blunt.

I will address some of your thoughts later tonight, God Willing.

 

[bpbasilphx]

This is a note from an Orthodox version of the Horologion (Book of Hours) for 15 August. Emphasis added:

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1. The Dormition of our most holy and glorious Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary.

Concerning the Dormition of the Mother of God the Church has received the following from the ancient tradition of the Fathers. When the time drew near when it was our Saviour’s good pleasure to take to himself his own Mother, he informed her through an Angel, three days before hand, of her passing from this temporary life to that which is eternal and blessed. When she heard this, she went in haste to the mount of Olives, where it was her custom to go and pray, and when she had given thanks to God, she returned to her house and prepared for her burial. Meanwhile clouds had snatched up the Apostles from the ends of the earth, wherever each of them was preaching, and set them down together at the house of the Mother of God. She quickly explained to them the reason for their coming together and like a mother she consoled them in their distress. Then she raised her hands to heaven, prayed for the peace of the world, blessed the Apostles and then, when she had lain down on the bier and disposed her body as she has intended, she placed her all-holy soul into the hands of her Son and God.

The Apostles with devotion and great pomp took up the bier of that body which had received God and chanting funeral hymns they took it to the grave, when Angels from heaven began to sing with them, as they escorted her who is higher than the Cherubim. One of Jews, out of envy, audaciously placed his hands on the bier and at once received the punishment of his rashness, for his hands were cut off by an invisible blow. When they reached the village called Gethsemane, they buried there with honour the all-pure body, source of life, of the Mother of God. But on the third day after the burial, as they were consoling one another together, they raised the loaf that had been set out, as was their custom, in the name of Jesus, when the Mother of God appeared in the air and said them, ‘Hail!’. From this they understood that the Mother of God had been translated bodily into heaven.

This is what the Church has received from the traditions of the Fathers, and having set down many things from them in hymns, as a proof of true devotion, it chants them this day to the glory of the Mother of our God.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes but the ‘assumption’ of the translated body of Our Lady doesn’t happen until three-days ‘after’ the Feast of the Dormition. That is completely missing in the modern Western Calendar. Gone.

It is generally not mentioned in the Byzantine liturgical texts until 17 August, except in the fairly modern Burial of the Theotokos, a special form of Matins of the 15 celebrated in some places.

I am not sure I understand your comment (“it”?). The assumption, i.e., the translation to life in heaven is celebrated repeatedly during Dormition vespers.

Chrisb, you should go to vigil for the Dormition, so that you can speak more correctly on this matter.

 

[harveyc]

When the Assumption was defined as Dogma, Pope Pius XII intentionally did NOT define it as dogma that she did not first die.

**Actually, he did.

In the Roman office for the feast promulgated in 1950 when Pius XII dogmatized the Assumption, the fifth Matins lesson, quoting St. John of Damascus, says “But she yielded obedience to the law established by him to whom she had given birth, and, as the daughter of the old Adam, underwent the old sentence [that is, death], which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused.” Lex orandi, lex credendi. If it’s in the liturgical formularies of the Church, it’s the teaching of the church.**

I apologize if I’ve missed something here, but I find this post confusing and am trying to understand it correctly.

From what I understand of it, the quoted text (from post #1 by Bilgianwaffles9) says that Pope Pius XII did not define it as dogma that Mary did not die. The post by bpbasilphx says he did. However, the text that follows seems to say that Mary underwent the old sentence of death.

Please clear up the confusion this has created (in my mind, at least).

By the way, my family and I did visit what is claimed to be Mary’s tomb in Jerusalem in December 2005 on pilgrimage with Fr. Pacwa and I can attest to the fact that it is empty!

 

[AMDGtoo]

Please clear up the confusion this has created (in my mind, at least).

I think that what is meant here is that the Pope didn’t spell it out (example: she died folks). Instead, it was said more euphemistically: “she underwent the old sentence which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused”. Like “Six of one/half dozen of another”, it means the same, but it just isn’t spelled out the same.

 

[wynd]

I think that what is meant here is that the Pope didn’t spell it out (example: she died folks). Instead, it was said more euphemistically: “she underwent the old sentence which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused”. Like “Six of one/half dozen of another”, it means the same, but it just isn’t spelled out the same.

In the beginning of the document:Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”

More:[The church fathers] offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ – truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.

Sounds pretty clear to me.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Was speaking about this post and trying to clarify belgianwaffle9’s “he did not” with it:

Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
When the Assumption was defined as Dogma, Pope Pius XII intentionally did NOT define it as dogma that she did not first die.

Actually, he did.

In the Roman office for the feast promulgated in 1950 when Pius XII dogmatized the Assumption, the fifth Matins lesson, quoting St. John of Damascus, says “But she yielded obedience to the law established by him to whom she had given birth, and, as the daughter of the old Adam, underwent the old sentence [that is, death], which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused.” Lex orandi, lex credendi. If it’s in the liturgical formularies of the Church, it’s the teaching of the church.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Was speaking about this post and trying to clarify belgianwaffle9’s “he did not” with it:

I was a bit sloppy with words in my original post.

Basically, in the Dogmatic Decree which affirmed the Assumption of Mary, it was not explicitly stated that she Died.

There are, however, plenty of documents, as well as Tradition, to show that the Latin Church indeed believes that Blessed Mary died, just as her Son did.

My Priest even said so in the homily for the Assumption (even using the words ‘Dormition’ and ‘falling asleep’ in very eastern style. it was nice).

 

[AMDGtoo]

I was a bit sloppy with words in my original post.

Basically, in the Dogmatic Decree which affirmed the Assumption of Mary, it was not explicitly stated that she Died.

There are, however, plenty of documents, as well as Tradition, to show that the Latin Church indeed believes that Blessed Mary died, just as her Son did.

My Priest even said so in the homily for the Assumption (even using the words ‘Dormition’ and ‘falling asleep’ in very eastern style. it was nice).

I know, I learned a lot about Our Lady from the Byzantine Catholic Rite chaplain assigned to our chapel many years ago.

 

[harveyc]

I was a bit sloppy with words in my original post.

Basically, in the Dogmatic Decree which affirmed the Assumption of Mary, it was not explicitly stated that she Died.

There are, however, plenty of documents, as well as Tradition, to show that the Latin Church indeed believes that Blessed Mary died, just as her Son did.

My Priest even said so in the homily for the Assumption (even using the words ‘Dormition’ and ‘falling asleep’ in very eastern style. it was nice).

Okay, thanks; all cleared up now!

I decided to check out the forums here because we have a visiting Polish priest doing work in Africa but serving in our parish while our pastor is on vacation. In his homily he made the statement that Mary did not die. I mentioned visiting her tomb and he was surprised as he had spent six months in the Holy Land himself. I’ve directed him to the Catholic Encyclopedia document linked in this thread. He agreed to check it out. I also sent my photos of the tomb in Jerusalem.

 

[zografou]

I gave you the names of both Feasts. Look them up on an Orthodox Site. The fact that you have ‘one’ Feast (the Assumption) without a proper Memorial Feast (the Dormition) gives Catholics the wrong headed idea that Our Lady the Theotokos ‘never’ died.

I think it’s interested that the West is celebrating her assumption (our Apodosis) without a Memorial of her Dormition (i.e. falling asleep) and on the wrong day (August 15th) *Our Lady was not taken up until after her passing which is observed on August 23rd. *

?!?!

With all love and in Truth, to my brothers, this is a gross mis-statement of Orthodox Tradition!

It is apparent from thos post that you truly misunderstand what the apodosis of a feast day is as well as the Orthodox dogma of the Dormition and Translation of Panaghia.

But, don’t believe me, ask any Orthodox Priest or Bishop.

Kyrie Eleison, we who proclaim to be Orthodox must be careful not to rebuke another for what is seen as error with an even greater error!

BOTH Her Dormition AND Her TRANSLATION into Heaven are commemorated on the 15th day of August!

Just look at ANY icon of the Dormition and you see Panaghia asleep with Her pure soul the infant in Our Lord’s arm as she is beheld and surrounded by the Apostles, Angels and HolyFathers.
The Apostles were indeed gathered and present, except for St. Thomas who arrived on the third day. This is why the tomb was opened and discovered to be empty.

But, there has never been a separate feast three days later, even if this was when that was when it was understood that her body had been taken up to Heaven.

The Apodosis of a Feast is the “giving back” completion or closure of the rememberance of the Feast…usually on the 7th day
following the Feast.

The Apodosis of the Feast of Panaghia’s Dormition is NOT The Feast of Her “Assumption”!!!

As to the original post,

we use the term translation vs assumption to clearly denote the transition of Panaghia’s body and soul her earthly departure upon Her Dormition, or falling asleep. It is a matter of precision to use terms so as to avoid and prevent errors of understanding.

Through His Death, Christ has trampled Death!

That is why we use prefer the phrase falling asleep rather than to say we die. The end of this life here on earth is not our death, but the begining of our eternal life.

I think we can all see, it is not difficult that some of simple understanding could then grasp on this to proclaim, “See! She did not die!”

I know there were 2 of the Old Testament Prophets who were assumed into Heaven while still living. St.Elijah and St. Elias? Some one help me out…Forgive my lapse of memory, but this shows us why it may create mis-understanding if using the same term to describe two different occurances.

If you wish to see why precision of terms is so vital to understanding the fullness of Truth, conduct a poll of those who use the term assumption, and see how many will say they believe assumed means She was taken up into Heaven while still living…

Prevention is the best cure.

But, saying and even believing something does not make it so when it is not so…

Again, so that yet another mis-understanding does not progress into that which it is not:

Both Her Dormition and Her translation into Heaven are
commemorated on the 15th day of August!

The Apodosis of the Feast of Panaghia’s Dormition is not a
seperate Feast of Her “Assumption”

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Very nice post, there. Very informative.

I just found these, if anyone is interested:

This is what the celebration of the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary looked like on Papa Stronsay, where a traditional Roman-Rite Catholic monastery is located:

I’ll post a few pictures below, but here is some some links to all of the picture:

papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008/08/blessed-in-sight-of-lord-is-death-of.html
papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008/08/vigil-of-assumption-second-day-of.html
papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008/08/triduum-third-day-assumpta-est-maria-in.html

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“Tradition relates that Our Lady, in imitation of her Divine Son, was raised body and soul into Heaven on the third day after Her death. Therefore, in remembrance of this we have erected a catafalque in the chapel.”

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Vigil Mass:

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Celebration of the Feast Day:

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