Assumptions About Vatican II

[rwoehmke]

Just finished most of the “My Statement” thread started by brotherhrolf. One theme I seemed to pick up in some of the posts was that the Church has lost membership because of the changes wrought by Vatican II. For the sake of discussion I would like to pretty much stick to what has transpired with the Church in the U.S.

A recent study by the Pew people of religious affiliation in the U.S. reports that about 30 percent of those born and baptized as Catholics have left the Catholic Church. About half for one or the other non-Catholic denominations and about half sinking into a life with no faith affiliation. Hispanics between the ages of 18 and 29 make up nearly 41% of the U.S. Catholic Church today. Converts a couple percent.

One of the rationals made for calling the Council was to bring the Church into a situation where it was better able to effectively interact with the people of this time in history. Now I can recall being a Catholic back in the 40’s and 50’s and in my opinion Catholics for the most part kept apart from their non-Catholic peers. One might say we lived in our ethnic Catholic and our often ethnic parish. For example in Detroit St. Helen’s was a Polish Parish in a Polish neighborhood and Holy Redeemer not far away was an Irish Parish in an Irish neighborhood. Of course there were always a few families who didn’t fit the mold, but by an large Catholic ethnic ghettos. People of other ethnic backgrounds and faiths were just not welcome.

I lived in a small town that was essentially German, but we had Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. in town, but most of us were German and either Catholic or Lutheran. Catholics and non-Catholics did not mix socially and very few of us attended a public grade school. I met my Irish wife to be while living in Detroit. When I brought her to meet my parents, they were very nice, but my sister told me some years later that once we had left, my Dad turned to my Mother and said,“She seems to be a very nice girl, but why would he want to marry Irish?” This is in 1960, not 1892 or something.

It has been said that Vatican II protestantized the Church, but it seems that about 15 percent of those leaving found protestantism the preferred home. This is the long way around to my question. Is it not possible that if Vatican II had not happened, the Church might be in even worse shape today?

 

[mathematician]

I think it is true to say that the churches of all denominations are thrashing around, looking for superficial answers to a deep seated problem.

Two approaches which are guaranteed to make things only worse are:

1.) Change nothing! Everything which has happened in the last hundred years or so has been downhill all the way, and we want no more of it!

2.) Change everything! Tear out the pews, turn the religious orders into residential clubs for people who like saying the Office, make belief in the ressurrection optional, and we will have people flocking through the doors!

 

[stmaria]

Some change was needed. But that change should have come in the traditional way, gradually and with care. In 1965 Pope Paul promulgated the Mass that was outlined in the Constitution. partly in Latin and the vernacular. This Mass would have been accepted by those priests, bishops and laity that rejected the New Mass.
But the reform continued quickly and radically. In my opinion the Mass of 1965 should have been allowed to develop slowy over the past 40 years and we would not have two rites competing with one another today. 1965 Mass coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/
It’s impossible to say if this would have prevented Catholics from leaving the Church. For one thing the sermons have become very generic over the last 40 years. The teaching of our children has not been stressed. Go to the Tradtional Mass and you will hear very strong sermons on what the Church teaches.
I don’t know first hand but I would bet that the schools run by the SSPX stress the teachings of the Church better than all of the other schools.
I know one thing. Since Vatican II the differences between Catholics and Protestants has been blurred. Many believe that it makes no difference to what religion one belongs. We are all saved.
The Church is not as ‘militant’ as it once was. After Vatican II outward professions of faith were stopped. I can remember in the 1960’s the Christ the King Processions that were held every year in every major city in the world. In my city 30-40,000 Catholics would march downtown with banners proclaim that “Christ is King”
In Europe hundreds of thousands would march. What happenned?

 

[Dempsey1919]

Vatican II was a great out pouring of grace for the Church in modern times. I say this as a totally traditional Catholic who has a preference for the Tridentine Mass and a fondness for the traditional spirituality of the roman rite. I hope that the Catholic laity will eventually realise the greatness of this Council.

Remember that Vatican II was convened as a pastoral council. The main aim of the Council was to establish the ways in which the message of the Church would remain relevant to modern man. No doctrines were changed or altered during the Second Vatican Council; however, certain doctrines developed as a result of increased theological understanding.

The changes in the Church over the last 40 years have been caused more by changes within society than by Vatican II. If Vatican II had occured in the 1940’s, nobody would have a problem with this Council. In fact, if the liturgy had been left alone, I don’t think anyone within the Church would complain about Vatican II. Whenever there is a discussion on Vatican II, the focus quickly shifts to the changes to the liturgy. Everyone blames Vatican II for this, but a study of Sacrosanctum Concilium will prove that Vatican II did not call for most of the changes to the Mass. Vatican II is wrongly blamed for a lot of things. Don’t just listen to the opinions of others, actually read the Council documents and find out for yourself.

All traditional minded Catholics will have some concerns about the post-concilliar Church. I know that I do. However, I have also taken the time to study the theology of Vatican II and I know that this Council is the scapegoat for extremists on both sides. The extreme liberals use it to condone everything under the sun; many of the things they attribute to Vatican II are actually the opposite to what is written in the Council documents! Those on the far right blame Vatican II for all of the things they don’t like. Both sides are wrong.

Is it not possible that if Vatican II had not happened, the Church might be in even worse shape today?

Vatican II was the work of the Holy Spirit. Eventually, we will see the wonderful fruits of this Council. I think we are just beginning to see the Council implemented properly, and we have Benedict XVI to thank for that.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Some changes were necessary. I would be the first to acknowledge this. Having more extensive readings and psalms in Mass is one of them. Reaching out to other denominations is another.

The world described by rwoehmke was not my experience in New Orleans although I did experience it when I was stationed in Chicago in the early 70s. I grew up in a parish which was at one time Sicilian. By the time I went to Catholic grade school, the Sicilians were supplemented by the French, the Germans, the Irish, and by sixth grade, African Americans as well. The Marsalis family was a member of my parish. The ethnic connection simply does not wash in this neck of the woods. Ethnic parishes were not an issue in New Orleans even before WWII. South Louisiana is predominately Catholic and this might have something to do with it.

I make no bones about being contented with the church in which I was raised. But the speed and vehemence of the change from the TLM to the NO was breathtaking. I’m sure many of you will remember. Announcements from the pulpit…in two weeks we will no longer chant the Gloria, it will be in English…and so on and so forth. In less than two short years, the Mass under which I grew up was barely recognizable.

I do not believe that it was the intention of Vatican II to change the Mass so drastically and in so short a period of time. Now, let me add some additonal perspective.

As I have said, I went to Catholic schools from primer (kindegarten) through 12th grade. The sisters wore their habits as did the brothers who taught me in high school. In September of 1968 I came back from vacation to having two sets of brothers. One set of brothers still wore cassock, cross, and rosary and the other set of brothers wore black pants, white shirt, and black tie…an overnight change. Our school Masses changed overnight…out went the organ and in came the guitars…out went traditional Catholic hymns and in came “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”. No rhyme, no reason, just change for the sake of change. In May of 68, I sang Parce Domini…in September “Sons of God”.

The year before, I was senior altar boy for my parish. When we dedicated our new church, I was introduced to the archbishop and knelt and kissed his ring. By 1970 the state-of-the art electronic organ that the parish had bought was retired in favor of guitars and all the rest of those wonderful songs from the era “They’ll Know We Are Christians”, “Kumbaya”, etc. etc.

Then went the altar rails and so on and so forth. My father was an evangelical Protestant and he began attending Mass with us. It was my father, btw, who got me up and drove me to serve all those 6am Masses and who worked two jobs to send the three of us to Catholic schools. You will not hear me utter a complaint about Vatican II and Ecumenism.

You will not hear me utter a complaint about Vatican II and increased participation by the laity.

Stmaria - God works in mysterious ways. For the last two years (after Katrina) the Archdiocese of New Orleans resurrected the Corpus Christi procession starting in downtown NO and then going through the French Quarter to the cathedral. It is well attended.

I’m not against the OF despite what some here think. I want to return to the practices I knew as a child. My oldest son is 26 and has only the reverent NO of our cathedral parish. He can chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei because we have been using these for several years during Lent. He learned on his own the Pater Noster and floored his father by chanting it for him.

We have long roots. Our roots weave through our ethnicity. The baby got thrown out with the bathwater and I want the baby back.

 

[scylla]

I agree the baby got thrown out with the bath water.

If you read the documents you will see nothing that suggests the craziness that happened. Unfortunately many people took the incentive offered to seek ways to better communicate and integrate the faith with an invitation to change it to their own desires. People desire comfort and pleasure so they took it upon their own design to express the faith in comfort and pleasure.

This lead to catechesis being thrown out and the faith being forgotten. Which lead to a widespread denial of the faith and many people leaving the Church. People continue to promote pleasure and comfort over faithfulness though it seems this is on the decline. As people realize that Vatican II really needs to be implemented faithfully we start seeing good things come from it.

You see EWTN, Catholic Answers, Catholic websites and online apologetics, radio, etc…

Vatican II still will take time to be implemented faithfully and will eventually bear more good fruit, we just need to get rid of the weeds and Protestantism that has creeped in. Actually the preservation of the faith might be attributed eventually to the craziness as people didn’t mess with tradition, they just threw it out so we can discover it again.

Speaking about Protestantism, many keep trying to copy or import these type ideas into the Church with horrible results, we can never be as protestant as the protestants, unless we become protestant.
And this is what happens when we try to compete with protestants by imitation, Catholics become protestant.

Catholics should just be more faithful Catholics, and then protestants will become Catholic.

I am still looking for the permission that sisters recieved to get rid of their habits, maybe I should start a thread on that. Vatican II never said anything about getting rid of habits, just modifying them.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[brotherhrolf]

EWTN! Wow! Yes! On All Saints Day they hosted two visiting priests from an order in South America. If only all OF Masses could be said with such reverence.