Assurance of Salvation and Confession

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In another thread a number of Catholics indicated that they were unsure of their justification before God, specifically whether they would go to heaven or hell. This was based in part on the “work out you salvation with fear” passage.

My question is, shouldn’t priestly absolution provide confidence? If the priest has the authentic power to absolve sins, then it would seem that his pronouncement would be enough to satisfy doubts.
 
If you are in the state of grace you will go to Heaven. But its hard to remain that way and even saints, perhaps early in there journey wonder if perhaps they have committed sins and dont know it. St Alphonsus Liguori feared the judgement of God when he was dying. But he remembered his writings about our Lady and was comforted that he had done something good for the Theotokos. If you want to be as sure as you can that you will go to Heaven - be devoted to our Lady.Yours in Jesus, Mary and Joseph

John
 
We can have confidence. However, this confidence cannot be based on “absolute and infallible certainty” or “the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error,” unless God specifically gives you special revelation about it.

If not infallible certainty, we can probably be said to have moral certainty, which is “beyond reasonable doubt”. That is, while I’m not infallibly sure, I have no good reason to think I’m not in the state of grace.
 
That is rather sad to me. Hahn and other Catholics portray the Christian life as a family. Indeed, one of his criticisms of Protestantism is that it focused too much on God as judge, whereas Catholicism focuses more on the Christian relationship as family. Yet, the Catholic view of man’s relationship to God hardly seems like a family. Children are not always left wondering whether they have performed well enough to remain part of the family. Further, the sacraments do not seem to provide the objective certainty that some Catholics promise (for example, Neuhaus extolls the objectivity of the sacraments over what he calls the morbid introspection of some Protestants). There is always doubt, unlike in a real family.
 
T. More:
That is rather sad to me. Hahn and other Catholics portray the Christian life as a family. Indeed, one of his criticisms of Protestantism is that it focused too much on God as judge, whereas Catholicism focuses more on the Christian relationship as family. Yet, the Catholic view of man’s relationship to God hardly seems like a family. Children are not always left wondering whether they have performed well enough to remain part of the family. Further, the sacraments do not seem to provide the objective certainty that some Catholics promise (for example, Neuhaus extolls the objectivity of the sacraments over what he calls the morbid introspection of some Protestants). There is always doubt, unlike in a real family.
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My children don’t doubt that I love them, but that doesn’t mean they can’t choose to leave me. If we choose unconfessed, mortal sin, we choose to leave God. He doesn’t leave us. —KCT
 
My children regularly do wrong (although they are getting better!) and have no doubts about being in the family .
 
We can have confidence. We cannot, however, presume. Some Protestant groups overstate confidence by saying,“No way, no how, can you loose your salvation!,” to which the Catholic relplies, “What about denying Christ?” or “what about lapsing into abject mortal sin?” and “what did Jesus say about perservering?” We have a BEYOND reasonable hope of being saved (as the world understands the word “reasonable”), since it is in Jesus that our salvation rests. But we have to follow Him. Following Him means obeying him (working in love). It’s a free gift and we cannot earn or merit it, we get it gratis. However, as I heard someone say once, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”
 
John Russell Jr:
If you want to be as sure as you can that you will go to Heaven - be devoted to our Lady.
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With respect, I know what you mean when you say this, but that is because I’m Catholic. This is exactly what sets Protestants’ heads to spinning with all the things that they’ve ever heard about Catholics. Linguistically, yes, Our Lady’s fiat can be ***said ***to have saved us because without Her “yes” the Incarnation would not have occured. It’s is, however, Jesus’s Sacrifice that is our propitiation before God. Mary helps us with her prayers on our behalf. All the Holy Saints do. It is, however, the Holy Trinity who insures that “you will go to Heaven,” through the Passion, Death, and Resurection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
I am not focusing on who is right or wrong. I am just considering the psychological aspects. The Catholic portrait does not seem like a family. Further, the objectivity of the sacraments does not have as much psychological value as some portray suggest.

For example, Neuhaus criticized the morbid introspection of some Protestants who regularly question their salvation. His remedy was the objective sacraments. Yet, the Catholic psychologically is similarly left wondering whether he is really saved. It seems that objective sacraments should provide more comfort or, at least, should not be promoted as a remedy to doubt since they don’t provide that.
 
T. More:
Yet, the Catholic view of man’s relationship to God hardly seems like a family. Children are not always left wondering whether they have performed well enough to remain part of the family. Further, the sacraments do not seem to provide the objective certainty that some Catholics promise (for example, Neuhaus extolls the objectivity of the sacraments over what he calls the morbid introspection of some Protestants). There is always doubt, unlike in a real family.
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I think you’re confusing the issue. The question is not whether we have certainty but whether we have “absolute and infallible” certainty.

I don’t have “absolute and infallible” certainty that I’m part of my family. Does that mean that I have reason to doubt? No! All of what I’ve seen so far gives me good reason to conclude that I’m part of my family. But that hardly means I’m absolutely and infallibly sure. How can I be? I’m neither absolute nor infallible. The only way I can have this knowledge is for someone who’s absolute and infallible to tell me specifically: and that would be God. So far I haven’t received any special revelation about that.

I remember hearing a Protestant apologist criticize the lack of “absolute and infallible” certainty as if it meant a Catholic can’t know anything about his own salvation. I called and asked him if the Protestant position was that one can be absolutely and infallibly sure about his own salvation. He said, “No, the certainty of our salvation is sufficient.” So I thought, “What’s the problem, then?! That’s the Catholic position!”

So, to reiterate, Catholics *can *have confidence, without room for reasonable doubt. But that’s wholly different from saying that one’s confidence is based on “absolute and infallible” certainty which either requires you to be God or that God give you special revelation.
 
We can have confidence. We cannot, however, presume.
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If you view man’s relation to God as family, isn’t this like saying that my son cannot presume to be my son? It sounds more like an employment relationship based on performance, at least to me anyway.
 
Presumption in this instance would mean saying, essentially, “I can kill this person, I can sleep with my best friend’s wife, I’m saved, I can do anything I want, I don’t have to worry about going to Heaven, I’m SAVED.” Confidence says, “I am confident that I’m saved because I’m following Jesus, I’m trusting Jesus, I’m obeying Jesus, I’m committed to Jesus, I love Jesus. That means I’m not going to kill this person, even though I feel like it, that means I’m not going to sleep with my best friend’s wife, even though sometimes I want to do so.”
 
Kirk: I understand what you are saying but presumably the people on this board have neither murdered nor committed adultery. Yet, they suffer doubt. Likewise, the saint mentioned earlier in this thread presumably did not murder or commit adultery but still was fearful as he neared death. Or, if they did, presumably they would have recourse to objective sacaraments which should satisfy doubts.

You also sound rather evangelical in that your confidence arises from a self-analysis of your moral behavior more than looking to the objectivity of the sacraments. I am not saying that is bad but does undermine views like those of Neuhaus.
 
T. More:
Kirk: I understand what you are saying but presumably the people on this board have neither murdered nor committed adultery. Yet, they suffer doubt. Likewise, the saint mentioned earlier in this thread presumably did not murder or commit adultery but still was fearful as he neared death. Or, if they did, presumably they would have recourse to objective sacaraments which should satisfy doubts.

You also sound rather evangelical in that your confidence arises from a self-analysis of your moral behavior more than looking to the objectivity of the sacraments. I am not saying that is bad but does undermine views like those of Neuhaus.
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LOL! Sorry, but you should have seen me the last week and a half (in terms of doubts)! Catholics have doubts, Protestants have doubts. Both groups have the scrupulous (I chief among them, sometimes!). In the end, I don’t know how to solve the problem, except to trust in Jesus, but for ME, that also means trusting His Church and His Sacraments, because that’s obedience.
 
T. More:
For example, Neuhaus criticized the morbid introspection of some Protestants who regularly question their salvation. His remedy was the objective sacraments. Yet, the Catholic psychologically is similarly left wondering whether he is really saved. It seems that objective sacraments should provide more comfort or, at least, should not be promoted as a remedy to doubt since they don’t provide that.
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Ah, I see a little more clearly what you’re saying! SORRY!!! But…
they do provide a remedy to doubt: “He who eats of My flesh…,” “if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us…,” “are there any among you sick? Let them call for the elders and let them be annointed with oil,” etc. I know what you mean about wondering if one is really saved, I did it as a Protestant, then as a Catholic. I can only tell you that when I go to either Communion or Confession, I sense a difference, a lightening of the load.
 
“In the end, I don’t know how to solve the problem, except to trust in Jesus, but for ME, that also means trusting His Church and His Sacraments, because that’s obedience.”

But isn’t it more? Isn’t part of the assurance not only in obedience but in the view that the sacraments confer grace and the abolustion of the priest looses the sin, even in heaven?

Also, the doubts don’t seem like they should be part of a normal family life. Kids can struggle with disobedience and be ashamed of their behavior without fear of being cast our of the family. Certainly, they will undergo punishment or correction, which could make them afraid, but that is the fear of a family struggling to improve, not fear of explusion from the family.

BTW, you are right that many Protestants too struggle with doubt. What interests me is that even with the objective sacraments, Catholics don’t seem to escape it.
 
T. More said:
“In the end, I don’t know how to solve the problem, except to trust in Jesus, but for ME, that also means trusting His Church and His Sacraments, because that’s obedience.”

But isn’t it more? Isn’t part of the assurance not only in obedience but in the view that the sacraments confer grace and the abolustion of the priest looses the sin, even in heaven?

Also, the doubts don’t seem like they should be part of a normal family life. Kids can struggle with disobedience and be ashamed of their behavior without fear of being cast our of the family. Certainly, they will undergo punishment or correction, which could make them afraid, but that is the fear of a family struggling to improve, not fear of explusion from the family.

BTW, you are right that many Protestants too struggle with doubt. What interests me is that even with the objective sacraments, Catholics don’t seem to escape it.
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I can’t answer for every Catholic. “Catholic guilt” is spoken of in our society until it’s practically a metaphor for any moderate tug of the conscience, as in I didn’t tell my wife the truth when she asked me if that dress made her look fat, and then that old Catholic guilt kicked in. Every man knows NOT to tell the truth, it would be terribly lacking in charity and unkind to say,"Yeah, actually it does make you look a little chunky."The point is would be that there are Catholics who would go and confess that as a sin!!! That’s being overly scrupulous, a scrupe, if you will. We have them, you guys have them. We rush to confession at every little tremor of our conscience, you guys question your salvation or make one more trip down the aisle. As for Neuhaus, I haven’t had a chance to read a lot of his writings. And as for the family metaphor: Jesus seemed to imply that the father in the parable of the Prodigal loved the son, loved him so much that he may have been going out daily to look to see him coming back down the road (“while he was a long way off, his father saw him…”), yet the father did not hinder him when he wanted to leave. The Father doesn’t kick us out of the covenant so much as we kick ourselves out of it. If we decide to come back (repent, confess, rec. absolution) and then continue to browbeat ourselves over whether or not we’re really “back,” I would say that unhealthy scrupulosity, whether Catholic or Protestant.
 
It seems to me that doubts are being overemphasized. The Church IS a family. As long as I am in the family I feel safe. When I go to confession, I do have assurance that my sins are forgiven. When I receive the Eucharist, I have assurance that I receive Jesus Christ in his entirety. Within the Church I am assured of the graces needed for salvation.

The only assurance that I don’t have is to predict my future actions with absolute certainty. Though I am a member of the family–the Church–I still have free will, and thus the ability to turn my back on it all. No, I don’t expect to do that. But as long as there is free will and temptation exists, I can’t have absolute certainty.

In the same way, a loving father will always love his child, But if the child decides to reject the family, go off on his own and never look back, the father cannot force him.
 
I’m glad this discussion has come up because I always worry about justification. I can really identify with T. More’s concerns. Maybe this will help some (not that I still don’t have doubts, scruples, etc.)–but it occurred to me while reading T. More’s first post–I may actually have an answer that helps…when I was Protestant–the whole first 50 years of my life–a great believer in sola fide–I always thought there was something wrong with me. I couldn’t get the assurance of salvation I thought I should have. I never knew if I had enough faith (since everything depended on faith alone), or after being around evangelical friends, whether I’d really accepted Jesus into my heart. Therefore, I did it several times–lol!

When I became Catholic, hearing about the Eucharist, Baptism, and Confirmation, it was like a light bulb going on. It was like, “you mean, these things work even if I don’t have any faith in them at all??” (Of course whether the Eucharist does you much good without faith is a whole other discussion–but either way, it’s still the Lord!) A major burden lifted. Ironically, for the first time in my life, I had faith. Does that make sense?

Not that I don’t still struggle. But thank you for this discussion, because it reminded me that the sacraments, working ex opere operato, are the very power and presence of God. I experienced this physically, emotionally, and intellectually as a reality. Hard to explain.
 
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Lamb100:
Not that I don’t still struggle. But thank you for this discussion, because it reminded me that the sacraments, working ex opere operato, are the very power and presence of God. I experienced this physically, emotionally, and intellectually as a reality. Hard to explain.
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Thanks for that insight. The sacraments are the closest thing to absolute assurance that we have. They are all God’s work, and we can rely on them. We have only to approach them with a sincere heart.
 
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