Assurance of Salvation, fallacy?

[Philthy]

This guy is talking about a warm, fuzzy feeling. And that’s fine.

But the Church teaches that we cannot be absolutely certain if we are in a State of Grace:

Hi David

I thought that the position of the Church was that apart from divine personal revelation we could not know, but that some receive such revelation. In support of this I would offer the Church approved revelations of Lucy from Fatima to whom was revealed that she (and the other children) would go to Heaven. Am I mistaken?

Blessings

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Just to be clear, the protestant minister says one can be infallibly sure of one’s salvation at any time the person has his/her salvation while on earth (to give context, he asked me if I know if I am saved now, and if I said no, then I wasn’t saved :ehh.
My question isn’t so much about why this is wrong. I already understand the Catholic teaching, and I agree with it. It makes perfect sense.

My question is whether there is any illogical aspect of this thinking of salvation of this protestant minister, that it does not hold up to scrutiny in making sense. I gave an example of how OSAS does not logically hold up in the opening post, and I am just wondering if anyone can point to why this pastor’s viewpoint of salvation is also illogical on its own (not necessarily through scripture) but through reasoning.

I find nothing illogical with claiming to know ones salvific state at one point in time while simultaneously acknowledging that they may later be in a different salvific state. The word know has shades of meaning, and even though we disagree with the Pastor on the degree of certainty we can have with respect to our salvation at a point in time, that difference is likely relatively minimal - especially when compared to those who believe that they are saved and can’t lose their salvation (OSAS).

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

It wasn’t a done deal for St Paul

It’s important to know when each of those letters were written by St Paul IMHO. The quote you provided does not negate the possibility that St. Paul came to know his fate at a later date.
He may have received private revelation regarding his personal salvation and was merely expressing that. It’s also possible he is merely expressing his faith and hope with conviction.

Blessings

 

[Sirach2]

Hi David

I thought that the position of the Church was that apart from divine personal revelation we could not know, but that some receive such revelation. In support of this I would offer the Church approved revelations of Lucy from Fatima to whom was revealed that she (and the other children) would go to Heaven. Am I mistaken?

I believe the quote from David was misunderstood by him. Let’s look at it more closely.
David Filmer:

But the Church teaches that we cannot be absolutely certain if we are in a State of Grace:

For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God. [Council of Trent, Sixth Session]

While David did not cite the specific Canon number in this quote, which I was unable to find, I did note these two Canons that speak about not knowing with certainty whether one will persevere in grace to the end, without special revelation, which is what was given to Lucia, as Philthy mentioned. The Church teaches us to HOPE that God, in His mercy will grant us an eternal recompense if one keeps the commandments and perseveres to the end. The Canons on Justification say nothing about "knowing that a person has obtained the grace of God – at least, none that I could see here.

Many of us will remember the Baltimore Catechism Act of Hope, which is a theological virtue, and very necessary for one’s spiritual life. Saying that one should fear concerning his own grace, is destructive of hope, and is not at all what the Church teaches us. It may be that David was speaking about the grace of final perseverance.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ,** if so be that they persevere to the end** in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Finally, Session VI teaches further, that our help in believing, hoping, loving is dependent upon the help of the Holy Spirit in order to obtain justification.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

 

[Sirach2]

Continuing the matter of whether or not we can know we are in God’s grace, (I’m not talking about the grace of final perseverance, which is unknowable), these two scriptures have always impressed me deeply, and are profoundly true.

John 14:21 “Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.”

Romans 8:16 “The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”
I maintain, with St. Paul, that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is “knowable.”

Let us then fear to fall from grace and lose our justification. That is a gift also of the Holy Spirit, fear of the Lord.

 

[fhansen]

It’s important to know when each of those letters were written by St Paul IMHO. The quote you provided does not negate the possibility that St. Paul came to know his fate at a later date.
He may have received private revelation regarding his personal salvation and was merely expressing that. It’s also possible he is merely expressing his faith and hope with conviction.

Blessings

I agree with this and yet his statement in Phil 3 is so consistent with Catholic teaching on the level of assurance we can have that it resonates as a position he would have. And, of course, if he had a private revelation concerning his salvation, which would be quite possible although very rare-it would not at all be like the kinds of experiences Protestants are generally speaking of when they argue for assurance of salvation IMO.

 

[garyo49]

The OSAS doesn’t make sense, because if someone turns away from the faith, then they weren’t saved to begin with. However, anyone could be deceived into believing they are saved, and so any claim that a person is saved can’t be certain because they can turn away from the faith in the future. This is not logical and does not make sense.

I know catholics believe we cannot be infallibly sure of our own salvation. There is no problem here, and makes sense.

However, I came face to face with a protestant minister recently (he works at UMC, although theology wise is a general protestant). He says one can lose his/her salvation but a person can have assurance of his/her salvation when that person has it.

Now my question is, is there some fallacy or illogical aspect that does not make sense in this viewpoint, that one can be certain of one’s salvation but can also lose his/her salvation (similar to how I pointed out how OSAS is illogical). This isn’t necessarily from a scriptural viewpoint, but more from a logical standpoint on whether it makes sense.

One cannot be sure of his salvation because we can lose our justification. We believe that every time we commit mortal sin we lose our justification. Matthew 24:13 says, “but the one that stands firm to the end will be saved”.

Here is a really good article to read:

catholicbible101.com/areyousaved.htm

 

[PRmerger]

Just to be clear, the protestant minister says one can be infallibly sure of one’s salvation at any time the person has his/her salvation while on earth (to give context, he asked me if I know if I am saved now, and if I said no, then I wasn’t saved :ehh.

It would be interesting to ask your pastor if there’s such a thing as a person who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t.



I’m pretty sure that he believes such an entity exists, otherwise how would he explain the multitude of folks who have declared that they were saved, but left Christianity for another religion, denying Christ later?

Surely he doesn’t believe that one can deny Christ and still be saved, right?

 

[John_Martin]

The book of Romans is misunderstood to be a look at personal salvation.
It was written to the Catholic Church in Rome because the Jews there were telling the Christians that they were unjustified in calling themselves God’s chosen People. The Jews had the Law, the Fathers, Circumcision, etc., and the Christians had foreigners that did not have these things, so they were unjustified in claiming to be the Chosen People.
Paul first describes the gentiles who are not part of this Church (the Greeks in this Church were not any longer participating with the Gentile culture in its ungodliness). Then he shows how God chooses who his People are - not by their human claims to acceptability (works is his term) but by his sovereign decision as God. So, while the Jews have all that “stuff”, they did not flock to Christ when God announced the “new location” of the twelve tribes of Israel. God announced a “new location” of the decedents of Abraham when he declared about his grandsons “The elder will serve the younger”. With Jesus, God made a similar declaration, setting up the apostles as the kings of the twelve tribes, so anyone seeking to be part of the people of God would go to the new kings and seek inclusion by baptism.
Paul wants the Roman Church to ignore the criticism they are receiving and take it utterly seriously that they are this Chosen People, they are known, called, being enlightened and sanctified. They are “justified in walking around as the People of God, doing the works of God in Rome, in the world”
Romans was not written to “non-Christians” to try to get them to repent and believe, not written to Jews to get them to join the Church. It was written to the People of God in Rome to give them courage to face the criticism without flinching.

John Martin

 

[glendab]

Hello PRmerger.

It would be interesting to ask your pastor if there’s such a thing as a person who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t.



I’m pretty sure that he believes such an entity exists, otherwise how would he explain the multitude of folks who have declared that they were saved, but left Christianity for another religion, denying Christ later?

Surely he doesn’t believe that one can deny Christ and still be saved, right?

If he did ask that question, he might answer “Yeah, all those damned Catholics! Let’s go save a few!”

Glenda

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Another Scripture that shows the OSAS doctrine to be false. It clearly indicates that believers can turn away from faith and it gives a chilling warning too.

2 Peter 2:20-21
20For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

 

[Abu]

There is no blanket “assurance of salvation”; that is a fantasy.

Having redeemed us (opened heaven to us) through His Crucifixion, Jesus did not leave us orphans but gave us His Church to show us how to be saved (enter heaven) – through following His teaching infallibly given to us by His Church with the primacy and infallibility of Peter and his successors.

“Consider Romans 5:2: ‘We are confident in the hope of attaining glory as the sons of God.’ If we….are now sure of heaven, and know nothing can deprive us of it, then we have no reason to hope because we know that heaven is ours. But ‘our salvation is founded on the hope of something’ says Paul. ‘Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view; how could man still hope for something which he sees?’ (Rom 8:24). We hope for heaven, however well disposed we might be spiritually, because we know we still have a chance to lose it.” [Karl Keating, *Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius 1988, p 174-5].

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (St John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).

Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. Catechism of the Catholic Church # 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.

 

[guanophore]

There is no blanket “assurance of salvation”; that is a fantasy.

Great post Abu! Using the scriptures well to make your points and refraining from namecalling and disparaging/judgmental language.