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timothy2
Guest
I’d be interested in knowing what you think about salvation. How are we saved? And, can we know for sure that we are saved?
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KCT
Guest
God’s grace saves us. Can we be assured of salvation? No because we could reject His grace and die in a state of sin. —KCT
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
We can be morally assured that if we follow Christ with fidelity (as HE sees fidelity), we will be saved. We cannot have absolute assurance because we 1) may apostacize (as you said), 2) die in a state of mortal sin, or 3) decieve ourselves. We weren’t meant to have absolute assurance, but we can have a reasonable moral assurance. I mean, we weren’t meant to live in abject fear as Christians.
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KCT
Guest
So where would the sin of presumption come in? —KCT
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
- The notion of “once saved, always saved” is presumption.
- The notion that we’ve done enough so we’re good enough for Heaven is presumption as well.
- Committing a mortal sin while thinking “I can go to confession” is the sin of presumption.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Matthew 7:22-23 - “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’”
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Sir Knight said:
Be clear, I’m not an advocate of “OSAS.” I’m talking about moral assurance, ie, “if we follow the Savior, He will save us.” That implies that we’re REALLY following Him. That’s nothing more than the apologists at CA propose. I got the words “moral assurance” from Karl Keating. Here’s the link:
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
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bigmiketn
Guest
While I totally agree that we can be very presumptive about assurance of salvation it is also very poignent to remember that Christ came to seek that which was lost and the scriptures tell us that it is God’s desire that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. I am firm believer that as we walk in the sacramental graces and perform the works that Christ desires of us, He is exceedingly happy to see us through. He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it.
We should not be walking around in incredible fear. Perfect love casts out fear. He is a wonderful and glorious Savior and we should walk our walk not based on fear of punishment, but out of the joy of being members of the mystical body of Christ.
We should not be walking around in incredible fear. Perfect love casts out fear. He is a wonderful and glorious Savior and we should walk our walk not based on fear of punishment, but out of the joy of being members of the mystical body of Christ.
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amanda_nicole82
Guest
The Bible makes it clear that we can be assured of our salvation if we are children of God.
*“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life” (1John 5:13)
*Furthermore, the key to salvation is Christ. He died on the cross for our sins so that all who come to Him will not perish but have eternal life.
*“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40)
*Also, once we are saved we are always saved. It is not something that we earn through works and easily loose, we cannot save ourselves. It is through faith in Jesus Christ in which we are saved.
*
“I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:28)
“I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day” (2Timothy 1:12)
*There are several verses throughout the New Testament about salvation, I have only listed a few. One thing is certain: The Bible does not contradict itself in teaching the assurance of salvation.
Here is an awesome website that I came across about the assurance of salvation:
rbc.org/ds/q0601/
*“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life” (1John 5:13)
*Furthermore, the key to salvation is Christ. He died on the cross for our sins so that all who come to Him will not perish but have eternal life.
*“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40)
*Also, once we are saved we are always saved. It is not something that we earn through works and easily loose, we cannot save ourselves. It is through faith in Jesus Christ in which we are saved.
*
“I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:28)
“I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day” (2Timothy 1:12)
*There are several verses throughout the New Testament about salvation, I have only listed a few. One thing is certain: The Bible does not contradict itself in teaching the assurance of salvation.
Here is an awesome website that I came across about the assurance of salvation:
rbc.org/ds/q0601/
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scylla
Guest
Amanda,
Catholics do not believe in any way that you can earn your way into heaven. We believe we are saved by God’s grace, through faith to work in love.
But not at all by faith alone, which would deny even having to love God or living a Christian life, free will, etc etc…
You do make some good points with your scripture verses, we have discussed this a few times on these forums with the acronym OSAS, just search it to read up on the Catholic view of this to see what Catholics think of this doctrine.
God Bless
Scylla
Catholics do not believe in any way that you can earn your way into heaven. We believe we are saved by God’s grace, through faith to work in love.
But not at all by faith alone, which would deny even having to love God or living a Christian life, free will, etc etc…
You do make some good points with your scripture verses, we have discussed this a few times on these forums with the acronym OSAS, just search it to read up on the Catholic view of this to see what Catholics think of this doctrine.
God Bless
Scylla
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wcknight
Guest
The protestant concept of “once saved always saved” is easily refuted by common sense, and some other parts of scriptures.
St Paul tells us that Baptism can become “unBaptism”. When one stops doing the will of God and reverts to a life of crime or serious sin, they have basically rejected God, and all of Jesus’ teaching. To die in this condition while being unrepentent is to be condemned forever.
The serial killer or mass murderer may have at one time been a follower or born again in Baptism. They could have been as sincere as anyone else, BUT if they choose evil over doing God’s will, they can expect to be rejected when their time comes. Unrepentent evil doers will not enter God’s kingdom.
It’s dangerous to teach the OSAS position, That concept can only come from Satan as he will be the one who benefits most from such an erroneous position.
You have to fight the good fight BUT you must endure to the end. You can not say I was a good Christian 30 or 40 years ago, so I should be able to get into Heaven. Such an attitude will most likely get you into some very HOT water.
St Paul tells us that Baptism can become “unBaptism”. When one stops doing the will of God and reverts to a life of crime or serious sin, they have basically rejected God, and all of Jesus’ teaching. To die in this condition while being unrepentent is to be condemned forever.
The serial killer or mass murderer may have at one time been a follower or born again in Baptism. They could have been as sincere as anyone else, BUT if they choose evil over doing God’s will, they can expect to be rejected when their time comes. Unrepentent evil doers will not enter God’s kingdom.
It’s dangerous to teach the OSAS position, That concept can only come from Satan as he will be the one who benefits most from such an erroneous position.
You have to fight the good fight BUT you must endure to the end. You can not say I was a good Christian 30 or 40 years ago, so I should be able to get into Heaven. Such an attitude will most likely get you into some very HOT water.
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amanda_nicole82
Guest
I don’t believe that my beliefs are satanic. I have faith that my Jesus died once for all, for all sins, and his blood has the power to save that which was lost, and to keep them. Jesus said, i will never leave you nor forsake you. I don’t recall a “unless” tag after that verse, he will NEVER leave us!
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Amanda, you seem like a sweet girl. But your beliefs are misguided by those who do not understand how to reconcile the words of about belief, salvation, grace, faith and works with other passages in the Bible so they ignore (and have led you to ignore) other parts of scripture.
The Bible verses sighted earlier speak about **belief **in Jesus. The word belief as used in the New Testament means more than a simple intellectual exercise. If we really believe in something then it goes without saying that we act in accordance with those beliefs. While much of the Bible speaks about believing and being saved, much also speaks about actions. That is because they are united as two sides of the same coin. The writers of the New Testament did not always write about “actions” when they wrote about “belief” because the fact that actions accompany belief went without saying.
You quoted from the sixth chapter of John. Did you read the entire chapter? Do you believe that we should take the Bible literally? Catholics take the words of Jesus recorded in John 6:47-71 quite literally. We also believe that His blood has the power to save us. Read the rest of the chapter.
Jesus may never leave us, but we can leave Him. John 6:66-69 "As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the twelve, ‘Do you also want to leave?’ Simon Peter answered him, ‘Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.’"
Note: Simon believed and so he did something–he continued to follow Jesus after many of the disciples of Jesus returned to their former ways of life. We can be assured that if we continue to follow Jesus, we will follow Him to heaven. But if we return to our former ways of life, (to our sins) we no longer follow Jesus. We can *hope *that we will follow Jesus all our lives until we meet Him in heaven. But we have no assurance of that we will do that, which is why it is important to stay close to God and to pray for the grace of final perseverance. Even Peter abandoned Jesus for a time at the crucifixion, but he repented and ultimately took up a cross and followed Jesus to a martyr’s death. We must also take up our cross, repent when we fall and follow Him until the very end of our lives.
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springbreeze
Guest
Dear friend
Originally Posted by Sir Knight
Matthew 7:22-23 - “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’”
Isn’t that ‘**we not’…(**excerpt from passage underline my emphasis) all so full of the sin of pride that certainly Jesus would not know them? This attributes all of the work they did to themselves and none of it to the mighty work of the Lord in them, in short an abuse of His Holy Name that does not give any credance to God’s grace that worked in them and their acceptance of it and all He willed for them in their life for their salvation.
Surely the heart truly striving for salvation will say at the judgement…‘I did nothing Lord, surely I did not do enough, surely I could have done more, I could have given more, I could have loved more.Have Mercy on me Lord’
The Lord doesn’t want us in fear and worry all of our lives, Love trusts and if we live with God in Love He comes to us and makes a home in us and spiritual communion is possible to make in this life and is only fulfilled in the next. We are also forgetting the Merciful nature of God, but to obtain mercy we too must also be merciful.
Salvation is as easy to slip through our fingers as the grains of sand can trickle through them if we become complacent and lazy. We are not to be fear stricken, we are to be joyous Eucharistic people and in that joy realise the seriousness of the work of our slavation and strive in joy to accomplish it by His grace, this means the joining of our will with God’s will. It’s all in the intent and the secrets of the heart.
We work in faith all of our lives and trust in God.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
Originally Posted by Sir Knight
Matthew 7:22-23 - “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’”
Isn’t that ‘**we not’…(**excerpt from passage underline my emphasis) all so full of the sin of pride that certainly Jesus would not know them? This attributes all of the work they did to themselves and none of it to the mighty work of the Lord in them, in short an abuse of His Holy Name that does not give any credance to God’s grace that worked in them and their acceptance of it and all He willed for them in their life for their salvation.
Surely the heart truly striving for salvation will say at the judgement…‘I did nothing Lord, surely I did not do enough, surely I could have done more, I could have given more, I could have loved more.Have Mercy on me Lord’
The Lord doesn’t want us in fear and worry all of our lives, Love trusts and if we live with God in Love He comes to us and makes a home in us and spiritual communion is possible to make in this life and is only fulfilled in the next. We are also forgetting the Merciful nature of God, but to obtain mercy we too must also be merciful.
Salvation is as easy to slip through our fingers as the grains of sand can trickle through them if we become complacent and lazy. We are not to be fear stricken, we are to be joyous Eucharistic people and in that joy realise the seriousness of the work of our slavation and strive in joy to accomplish it by His grace, this means the joining of our will with God’s will. It’s all in the intent and the secrets of the heart.
We work in faith all of our lives and trust in God.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
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amanda_nicole82
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids
* You quoted from the sixth chapter of John. Did you read the entire chapter? Do you believe that we should take the Bible literally? Catholics take the words of Jesus recorded in John 6:47-71 quite literally. We also believe that His blood has the power to save us. Read the rest of the chapter.
Jesus may never leave us, but we can leave Him. John 6:66-69 "As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the twelve, ‘Do you also want to leave?’ Simon Peter answered him, ‘Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.’ "
*
Yes I have read the entire chapter, I have it in front of me right now just incase I missed something. And yes, I do believe that we should take the Bible literally. I can’t speak for all Protestants, but I also take John 6 :47-71 quite literally. Let me tell you what I get out of that since you have told me your interpretation.
First of all, this was before Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Therefor he had not yet died for our sins and the holy spirit had not yet come to the disciples (as you recall Jesus promise the disciples that when He leaves He will give us the Holy Spirit who will come to us and will never leave us). So at this point the disciples had a choice to either follow or not, and some didn’t.
Furthermore, Jesus promises in John 6:50 that He will give eternal life to all who eat the bread of life; He describes HImself as being the bread of life in chapter 48. What do we do when we eat? We take it in. Therefore all who take Him in will have eternal life. Hence chapter 56 “All who eat my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and I in them.” To me that means that He will never leave those who are saved.
You said that Catholics take John 6:47-71 literally, but do you take the rest of the Bible literally? If so, what do you make of this verse?:
“Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.” (John 5:24) *taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible.
*This is how I interpret it: those who listen to Jesus’s message and believe that God sent Him will have eternal life, and that they will never be condemned for their sins, because they have been saved (they have passed from death to life).
Oh, and by the way, you said that whoever I am getting my information from lacks understanding and is misleading me. The Bible instructs us to pray for wisdom, and that is what I do. Since I have the Holy Spirit I do not need anyone to interpret the Bible for me. The Bible says that once we are saved the Holy Spirit will come to us and give us wisdom.
1 John 2:27 (NIV) As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.*
John 14:26 (NIV) But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.*
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids
* You quoted from the sixth chapter of John. Did you read the entire chapter? Do you believe that we should take the Bible literally? Catholics take the words of Jesus recorded in John 6:47-71 quite literally. We also believe that His blood has the power to save us. Read the rest of the chapter.
Jesus may never leave us, but we can leave Him. John 6:66-69 "As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the twelve, ‘Do you also want to leave?’ Simon Peter answered him, ‘Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.’ "
*
Yes I have read the entire chapter, I have it in front of me right now just incase I missed something. And yes, I do believe that we should take the Bible literally. I can’t speak for all Protestants, but I also take John 6 :47-71 quite literally. Let me tell you what I get out of that since you have told me your interpretation.
First of all, this was before Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Therefor he had not yet died for our sins and the holy spirit had not yet come to the disciples (as you recall Jesus promise the disciples that when He leaves He will give us the Holy Spirit who will come to us and will never leave us). So at this point the disciples had a choice to either follow or not, and some didn’t.
Furthermore, Jesus promises in John 6:50 that He will give eternal life to all who eat the bread of life; He describes HImself as being the bread of life in chapter 48. What do we do when we eat? We take it in. Therefore all who take Him in will have eternal life. Hence chapter 56 “All who eat my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and I in them.” To me that means that He will never leave those who are saved.
You said that Catholics take John 6:47-71 literally, but do you take the rest of the Bible literally? If so, what do you make of this verse?:
“Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.” (John 5:24) *taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible.
*This is how I interpret it: those who listen to Jesus’s message and believe that God sent Him will have eternal life, and that they will never be condemned for their sins, because they have been saved (they have passed from death to life).
Oh, and by the way, you said that whoever I am getting my information from lacks understanding and is misleading me. The Bible instructs us to pray for wisdom, and that is what I do. Since I have the Holy Spirit I do not need anyone to interpret the Bible for me. The Bible says that once we are saved the Holy Spirit will come to us and give us wisdom.
1 John 2:27 (NIV) As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.*
John 14:26 (NIV) But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.*
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gardenswithkids
Guest
I pray the Holy Spirit guides me as I write this post.
amanda_nicole82:
You sighted I John 2:27, but verse 26 right before it says, “I write you these things about those who would deceive you.” Even though they had received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, John still warned them that they could be deceived. So it is for the rest of us. We can be deceived by those who teach us, and we must call upon the Holy Spirit to show us truth.
amanda_nicole82:
“Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)…”
As I posted earlier, the word “believe” (or in this case “believeth’) implies more than just an intellectual exercise. Believing in Jesus is not a one time experience. If we say we believe in Jesus, we should live according to our belief in Him. Sometimes people say one thing, but do another. I believe that upon our passing from this world, God will look at our heart and our actions to see if we believed in Jesus or not. Those who believe will not die, but have eternal life.
I did not mean this to sound as insulting as it may have come across. Unless we have never heard anything about Jesus before in our lives, it is nearly impossible to read the Bible without someone else’s interpretation influencing how we understand the words. The Holy Spirit may guide us at times to understand a passage that no one has every explained, but many times when we read scripture that builds upon what we’ve learned in the past about scripture. At most every church service the pastor, priest or minister gets up and explains scripture. Television and radio evangelists explain their understanding of scripture. Many times when we listen others speak about the Bible, we come to understand something that the Holy Spirit has not directly told us. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is speaking through the preacher, or perhaps the preacher is sharing something uninspired. Either way, we walk away with our understanding of the Bible influenced by his words. As you say you pray for wisdom, I pray God grants it to you.
You sighted I John 2:27, but verse 26 right before it says, “I write you these things about those who would deceive you.” Even though they had received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, John still warned them that they could be deceived. So it is for the rest of us. We can be deceived by those who teach us, and we must call upon the Holy Spirit to show us truth.
Personally, I take most of the Bible literally. For example, in John 6:55 when Jesus says “My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink” I believe He really intends for us to take Him in as food in the Eucharist so He can enter in and nourish us with His very self. And when I John 2:27 tells about an anointing of the Holy Spirit, I believe John is referring to a literal, physical anointing such as I received at Confirmation and what our priests receive when they are ordained.
amanda_nicole82 said:
“Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)…”
As I posted earlier, the word “believe” (or in this case “believeth’) implies more than just an intellectual exercise. Believing in Jesus is not a one time experience. If we say we believe in Jesus, we should live according to our belief in Him. Sometimes people say one thing, but do another. I believe that upon our passing from this world, God will look at our heart and our actions to see if we believed in Jesus or not. Those who believe will not die, but have eternal life.
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amanda_nicole82
Guest
Thank you, from my life experiences I have come to find that prayer works! I will pray the same for you. I don’t have all the answers, but I do know who I am and where I am going. It sounds like you do too. You are right about listening to ministers, priests, reverands, etc. interpretations of the Bible, that I do. What I meant really was that I listen to what they say, but I ultimately recieve my knowledge from the Holy Spirit who gives me the ability to comprehend what I have heard, and I know the Holy Spirit would not lead me astray. We obviously have two different point of views on this subject and neither one of us is going to persuade the other, so there is no use debating it. I am glad to have had the opportunity to share my opinion and I am glad that I got to hear yours as well. All that matters to me is that I am a Christian and I know that I have God in my heart and in my life. He has blessed me so much (I am getting married in 9 days to a wonderful Christian man!!
). Well God bless you and your family as you become stronger in your Christian walk.In Christ,
Amanda
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Sir_Knight
Guest
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gardenswithkids
Guest
I am also glad that we could share here with each other. We obviously disagree and can not both be right, but when people debate and share with love, (as I hope we accomplished here
) the Holy Spirit can guide us to His truth. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.
Thank you. God blesses me in abundance through my marriage. One book on marriage that I highly recommend is Life Giving Love by Kimberly Hahn. She shares God’s beautiful plan for marriage as revealed in the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic Church. God used that book to help give us gifts in our marriage that we never imagined. May God richly bless you and your husband as you become a family together that reflects His love!He has blessed me so much (I am getting married in 9 days to a wonderful Christian man!!
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Nan_S
Guest
The Catholic Church indeed DOES specifically teach assurance of salvation, but in one instance only:
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
Just thought I’d throw this in here. It’s too often overlooked in this debate.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
Just thought I’d throw this in here. It’s too often overlooked in this debate.
- Status