Assurance of Salvation

[CWBetts]

Nobody said anything about relying upon the Bible alone, but I am saying that you cannot discount Scripture and yield it to another authority. I’m surely not the only Catholic that feels this way.

I have never discountd Scripture. But we can not discount the authority of the Church

 

[NDfan]

And here’s where your fallible interpretation fails: you assume that just because you are “saved” that you therefore must go to heaven. You are mistaken - being saved and ending up in Heaven are related but not necessarily so.

No they are related and absolutely so. If I’m saved I go to Heaven period. There’s no such thing as being saved and not going to Heaven. That makes no sense.

Someone can be saved and then lose their salvation through sin. Simply because you are saved now

Again you have a terrible misunderstanding of scripture. Christ never “adds” the clause of abiding in HIM to the command of believing in HIM. They go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive just as Faith and works are not separate. We don’t say believe + abide in Christ. Truly believing is abiding. The demons believe who Jesus is meaning they will acknowledge HE is the son of GOD. But they will not believe “in” HIM meaning abide in HIM accepting HIM as Lord and savior. In John Chapter 6 Christ Himself gives a blatant command from God stating that HE has come to do the will of the Father. And that the will of the Father is: that everyone who looks on the Son and believes** in** him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

PEACE

 

[TAB39]

I have never discountd Scripture. But we can not discount the authority of the Church

If what you say doesn’t parallel with Scripture, it’s no good. I don’t care whose church says otherwise.

 

[TAB39]

you assume that just because you are “saved” that you therefore must go to heaven. Well just what do you assume that means? If you don’t believe that being saved means that you go to Heaven eventually, I would seriously question whether you are a Christian or not.

 

[Philthy]

NDfan:

No they are related and absolutely so. If I’m saved I go to Heaven period. There’s no such thing as being saved and not going to Heaven. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you - because you are confused. You claim to not be an OSAS adherent, but you are and OSAS is not part of the gospel. There are some who will “recieve the word with joy” and believe and be “saved” only to later - due to the lures of the world - fall into sin, disobedience and a lack of love. They will not inherit the kingdom of God because despite having been “saved” they did not remain in Him. Its one of the clearest messages in the NT.

You must not have read my second post because this is the exact point I made. You’re too caught up in the timing aspect of being saved. If I follow Christ that certainly does not mean I will not stop sinning.

I never said it did mean that.

But Paul was always a follower of Christ and never hints at the notion of turning away from HIM thus going from saved to unsaved.

Really? Paul never even hints at such a notion? Perhaps not for himself, though he says that he does not stand acquitted of sin on the basis of his own assessment of his salvation, but defers judgement to God. He does repeatedly - as in several times - warns saved believers that they must persevere to the end, avoid sin, etc etc in order to inherit the kingdom of God. You are correct that he doesnt use the term “unsaved” because that would be inaccurate. What he says is that despite having been saved there is more to do to inherit the kingdom of God. As I tried to point to you earlier: having been saved and ending up in Heaven are slightly different events.

Naturally we must persevere in our faith until the end.

We must? Otherwise what? Will we lose our salvation? Yes or No, please.
If not, your statement is nothing but hot air and deceptive. If so, how can one claim to know with “absolute certainty” their future faith responses? Plenty of people with exactly your beliefs, level of assurance, etc etc have experienced a loss of faith and most definitely are not to be counted among the saved.
One other thing - there is nothing “natural” about persevering in faith - it is entirely supernatural.

But I can have assurance of my salvation if I remain a follower of Christ. As I said I never met a Roman Catholic that didn’t agree with this and it certainly is what I was taught in all my years in Catholic school.

The problem is when you use the word “salvation” you mean more than you should - on two levels.
First on the level of the meaning of the word “assurance”. You absolutely can have confidence in your current state of salvation, though you do not have absolute certainty (apart from personal divine revelation). That gives you a level of confidence regarding what your eternal destiny is if you were to die right now. But it doesn’t tell us about 50 years from now. Not that you need to worry about 50 years from now, but you simply dont know. To claim otherwise is simply a form of denial - it has nothing to do with Scripture.
Secondly on the level of the meaning of the word “salvation”. You repeatedly fail to separate being in a state of grace (ie have been saved and are still saved) and remaining in a state of grace until you die. When you discuss salvation, you assume that one who repents and believes unto salvation must “persevere to the end” when, in fact, some do not.
Lastly, Im not impressed with the educational level taught in Catholic schools - thats why no one with any credibility uses them as a reference for the teachings of the Church. Just a heads up. The Catechism is a sure norm for the Catholic faith.

And you are terribly misunderstanding the meaning of Paul’s statement here. Paul is addressing the unsaved individual who has not repented of their sin.

No, actually you are mistaken - though I doubt its a “terrible” mistake. Pauls letter is, like every single letter in the NT, written to a community of believers - there simply are no writings adressed to unbelievers. It is perfectly clear that Paul is writing to the “saved” believers of the church in Corinth. He identifies those who he is speaking to as having been “washed … sanctified…justified” in v 11. Those are attributes which only apply to saved believers. This is an undeniable fact. Knowing this, please reconsider the context of “do you not know the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God…” which is prefaced by the following:

v1 How can any one of you with a case against another dare to bring it to the unjust for judgment instead of to the holy ones?
v7-9 it is…a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated? Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul is writing to saved believers who are acting with “injustice” and he reminds them that “the unjust will not inherit the kindom of God”. It is very straightforward: even though you have been saved you must avoid serious sin otherwise you will not inherit the kingdom of God. You are correct that he speaks of people who commit such acts as “unbelievers” but you are mistaken to think that a “believer” can act with impunity and remain a “believer”.

Con’d

 

[Philthy]

this teaching is letting them know that the Kingdom of GOD is available for everyone who repents of their sin. The crux of the message is to repent of the things you listed because you can’t inherit the Kingdom if that’s how you live your life.

This is all correct and it applies to everyone - including the “saved” believers. It entirely contradicts the notion of OSAS.

Again you have a terrible misunderstanding of scripture. Christ never “adds” the clause of abiding in HIM to the command of believing in HIM. They go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive just as Faith and works are not separate. We don’t say believe + abide in Christ. Truly believing is abiding.

Im glad to hear you say this, but am confused as to why you think I, as a Catholic, would need to hear it. I never claimed to believe in faith “alone” - that is a Protestant error, and the primary source of error leading to OSAS and “absolute” assurance of salvation. I am well aware that a “faith without works is dead” and doesnt save you regardless of what faith I may claim to have. You miss the mark a little bit with “believing is abiding”. Thats vague. The requirement of abiding is producing the fruit of loving one another. If you have all the faith in the world but dont abide by the commandment to “love one another as I have loved you” then you do not inherit the kingdom of God - even if you were saved at some point in time…

 

[Philthy]

Well just what do you assume that means? If you don’t believe that being saved means that you go to Heaven eventually, I would seriously question whether you are a Christian or not.

Hi TAB-

Being saved means that you have been joined to the Body of Christ and have been transferred from spiritual death to spiritual life. If you remain/abide “in Christ” and persevere to the end of your life in faith, hope and love (of God and neighbor) - repenting when you fail - then you will in fact go to Heaven. If, however, you are joined to the Body of Christ, remain/abide in Christ for a while but then lose your faith, lose your hope, lose your love and die in a state of faithless unrepentance you will not go to Heaven.
When Paul says we are saved “by grace through faith” he means exactly that and no more. You, like my friend NDfan, seem to confuse having been saved at one point in time with being in a state of grace at the time of your death. They are different - try rereading any of the NT that deals with the topic and you should be able to see the distinction easily.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

If what you say doesn’t parallel with Scripture, it’s no good. I don’t care whose church says otherwise.

How do we determine what being “parallel with Scripture” is? I mean be honest - there are many, many competing theologies on some very basic Christian doctrine based solely on Scripture. Who gets to determine which of them is “aligned” with Scripture?

Blessings!

 

[geometer]

Most people who were saved in the scriptures, were simply healed of sickness. I do not know where heaven figures into the equation. Does anyone have a quote from the bible where someone is saved in a future sense of being granted heaven?

 

[CWBetts]

If what you say doesn’t parallel with Scripture, it’s no good. I don’t care whose church says otherwise.

If you reject the authroity of the Church, you are no Catholic.

 

[SyCarl]

Hi TAB-

Being saved means that you have been joined to the Body of Christ and have been transferred from spiritual death to spiritual life. If you remain/abide “in Christ” and persevere to the end of your life in faith, hope and love (of God and neighbor) - repenting when you fail - then you will in fact go to Heaven. If, however, you are joined to the Body of Christ, remain/abide in Christ for a while but then lose your faith, lose your hope, lose your love and die in a state of faithless unrepentance you will not go to Heaven.
When Paul says we are saved “by grace through faith” he means exactly that and no more. You, like my friend NDfan, seem to confuse having been saved at one point in time with being in a state of grace at the time of your death. They are different - try rereading any of the NT that deals with the topic and you should be able to see the distinction easily.

Blessings!

Much depends upon what you mean as being part of the Body of Christ. For example, Augustine seems to limit the Body to only those who will ultimately be with Jesus in eternity.

The second rule is about the twofold division of the body of the Lord; but this indeed is not a suitable name, for that is really no part of the body of Christ which will not be with Him in eternity. We ought, therefore, to say that the rule is about the true and the mixed body of the Lord, or the true and the counterfeit, or some such name; because, not to speak of eternity, hypocrites cannot even now be said to be in Him, although they seem to be in His Church. And hence this rule might be designated thus: Concerning the mixed Church. Now this rule requires the reader to be on his guard when Scripture, although it has now come to address or speak of a different set of persons, seems to be addressing or speaking of the same persons as before, just as if both sets constituted one body in consequence of their being for the time united in a common participation of the sacraments.

(On Christian Doctrine, 3:32)
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm

Now if being part of the Body is defined in this way, Once Saved Always Saved becomes a truism, although not a particularly useful one. If only those are saved who will remain saved the OSAS follows. It is not particularly useful because it is impossible to know if someone will persevere until they actually do so.

However, if you include in the saved those who appear to be saved at any particular moment then OSAS is not true.

 

[Philthy]

SyCarl;:

Much depends upon what you mean as being part of the Body of Christ. For example, Augustine seems to limit the Body to only those who will ultimately be with Jesus in eternity.

Interesting but ambiguous, and ultimately fallible.

Now if being part of the Body is defined in this way, Once Saved Always Saved becomes a truism, although not a particularly useful one. If only those are saved who will remain saved the OSAS follows. It is not particularly useful because it is impossible to know if someone will persevere until they actually do so.

However, if you include in the saved those who appear to be saved at any particular moment then OSAS is not true.

This has been my stance for some years! Its - at best - a useless doctrine. At best being what most OSAS adherents believe it to mean. If Im correct, however, it is actually a dangerous doctrine having the potential to lead some to a false sense of security in their presumed irrevocable salvation which might ultimately lead them to those behaviors Paul described as incompatible with the kingdom of God. We all know how difficult it can be to battle sin, but imagine believing that even if you did sin you would suffer no eternal consequence for doing so. Imagine believing God doesnt even see those sins because they are “covered” by the righteousness of Christ. It simply gives sin a greater opportunity.

 

[Howie01]

And here’s where your fallible interpretation fails: you assume that just because you are “saved” that you therefore must go to heaven. You are mistaken - being saved and ending up in Heaven are related but not necessarily so. Someone can be saved and then lose their salvation through sin. Simply because you are saved now does not mean that you will actually inherit the kingdom of God when you actually die. Christ tells us point blank: “If you do not forgive others…neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you…” You must persevere to the end in forgiving in order to be forgiven by God…
Paul also tells us point blank: Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomitesnor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Believing in Jesus is a necessity of salvation, but its not the only necessity. You must “abide in” him as well… thats why the NT is much longer than simply John 3:16 and why Christ instituted a Church and not merely a collection of writings.

Philthy, do you believe that the gift of perseverance would be a spiritual blessing from God?

 

[guanophore]

CW I’m not an OSAS believer but I feel I can be assured of my salvation because I consider scripture to be infallible. Scripture tells me if I believe in Christ I am assured of my salvation. I’m not infallible but scripture is. I take John 3:16 for exactly what it states.

PEACE

Actually, Scripture is not capable of the quality of infallibility. This characteristic requires will, discernment, and the ability to take responsibility for one’s acts. This is why SS is an errant doctrine. It tries to assign actions to Scripture that are not consistent with it’s nature. Scripture is inerrant, and inspired, but falliblity is a quality of persons, not writings, however Holy.

 

[guanophore]

We may not know if we will persevere until the end but we should be able to know our status with confidence at any particular moment.

This is what the Catholic Church calls being in a ‘state of grace’.

 

[guanophore]

In Hebrews, I believe he simply states that you must have faith that God does exist and has the power to save you…

Hebrews does say this, but this describes the attitude of the heart by which one approaches God. It does not mean it will result in salvation.

 

[geometer]

Hebrews does say this, but this describes the attitude of the heart by which one approaches God. It does not mean it will result in salvation.

You know what Jesus said to that kind of talk. If your son asks you for a fish, then would you give him a serpent?

 

[guanophore]

Nobody said anything about relying upon the Bible alone, but I am saying that you cannot discount Scripture and yield it to another authority. I’m surely not the only Catholic that feels this way.

The Divine Deposit of faith was delivered to the Church in two forms, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. They were never meant to be separated from one another. When one reads scripture apart from the Sacred Tradition, all kinds of error result. The two were meant to complement, not compete with one another.

 

[guanophore]

No they are related and absolutely so. If I’m saved I go to Heaven period. There’s no such thing as being saved and not going to Heaven. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense because there is a deficient understanding of salvation. Those who believe that “being saved” at one point in time, for all time, have disregarded significant portions of the Apostolic Teaching.

 You're too caught up in the timing aspect of being saved.  If I follow Christ that certainly does not mean I will **not** stop sinning.

I am sorry, ND, but that is EXACTLY what it means. Jesus came to deliver us from sin.

Paul confirms this in Romans by stating that the very thing he does not want to do he ends up doing. Then gives thanks for Jesus Christ because Jesus paid the price for sin.

He also states that Jesus DELIVERS him from his body of death!

Rom 6:2-15
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

The Apostles taught that we can live without sin, by the grace of God.

But Paul was always a follower of Christ and never hints at the notion of turning away from HIM thus going from saved to unsaved. Naturally we must persevere in our faith until the end. That’s why the Christian life is so difficult. But I can have assurance of my salvation if I remain a follower of Christ. As I said I never met a Roman Catholic that didn’t agree with this and it certainly is what I was taught in all my years in Catholic school.

He does more than “hint”. He talks about the shipwreck of faith, running in vain, running so as not to win the prize, failing to finish the race, boxing as though beating the air, being cut off from the vine, etc. etc.

And you are terribly misunderstanding the meaning of Paul’s statement here. Paul is addressing the unsaved individual who has not repented of their sin. We must interpret scripture for when it was written and to whom it was written. Paul in his travels preaches the necessity of following Christ and the importance of repentance. But his travels consisted mainly of preaching to pagans/gentiles who did not know Christ. Therefore this teaching is letting them know that the Kingdom of GOD is available for everyone who repents of their sin. The crux of the message is to repent of the things you listed because you can’t inherit the Kingdom if that’s how you live your life.

NO, ND. This letter is addressed to the Christian Church, not to Pagans. Read salutation.

Again you have a terrible misunderstanding of scripture. Christ never “adds” the clause of abiding in HIM to the command of believing in HIM. They go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive just as Faith and works are not separate. We don’t say believe + abide in Christ. Truly believing is abiding. The demons believe who Jesus is meaning they will acknowledge HE is the son of GOD. But they will not believe “in” HIM meaning abide in HIM accepting HIM as Lord and savior. In John Chapter 6 Christ Himself gives a blatant command from God stating that HE has come to do the will of the Father. And that the will of the Father is: that everyone who looks on the Son and believes** in** him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

PEACE

Jesus does not need to “add” the word “abide” becuase of what you say. The type of believing He talks about is the kind that obeys.

 

[guanophore]

If what you say doesn’t parallel with Scripture, it’s no good. I don’t care whose church says otherwise.

I think you need to change your affiliation, Tab. Clearly your faith is not catholic.

Well just what do you assume that means? If you don’t believe that being saved means that you go to Heaven eventually, I would seriously question whether you are a Christian or not.

Why are you here, TAB39?

Did you come to a Catholic forum to disingenuously represent yourself as catholic to question the salvation of catholics?