Assurance of Salvation

[jimmy]

Tiffany:

Wow is all I can say… You guys have loaded me down with verses to study! I love it! I haven’t had a chance yet to look over them but I have a question regaurding salvation and a few verses. We all know the Bible doesn’t contradict it self. Other wise it would not be the perfect word of God. So what do you do with these verses:

Ephesians 2:8,9
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

We are saved by grace through faith and works. You must try to live your faith in order to be saved. You can not just say I believe and then go do what you want. In verse 10 it says we are made for works.

Tiffany:

Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised from the dead, through shalt be saved”

I would say the same as above.

Tiffany:

The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt though be with me in paradise.”

The thief was just that, a thief if he were to be judged on whether he was to go to heaven or hell based on works, he would be in hell. But all he did was believe that Christ could save him and Jesus said that today he would be in paradise with him.

We can assume that the theif had a conversion on the cross and he changed. We can also assume that if he would have lived he would have done what he could for Christ, just look at the way he defended Christ against the other theif. You are not saved by works alone, it is by faith and works. Works does not mean that if a man does this, this , this and this he will be saved. It only means that the way we live or try to live affects our salvation.

Tiffany:

Jesus talking to the sinfull women that wipped her hair and tears on his feet, Luke 7:50
“And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”

I think you are speaking of the lady with the hemroids. I think Jesus is talking of faith in a different way than some protestants do. Many protestants believe that if you just believe, then you are saved. Jesus does not teach this. He told the rich man to give up everything he had and to follow him. He also gave the parables in Matthew 25 about the judgement. He clearly taught that those who do not do his Fathers will will not be saved.

Tiffany:

Romans 3:27, 28
“Where is boasting than? It is excluded. By what law of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Faith and works is very confusing in a way. It sounds like it is saying that you must do certain things in order to be saved but what it is saying is that we need to both believe and to try to live it. This is saying that you are not saved by your what you do, which you are not. The council of Trent anathematized those who believed that you could be saved by works.

Tiffany:

Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."

Same as above.

Tiffany:

Romans 9:10
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Tiffany:

Romans 10:13
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”

What are your takes on these verses?
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?

I’d love to hear what you think.

Tiff

We are saved by Grace through faith and works. Works does not mean you have to do certain things in order to be saved. What it means is that you have to try to live out the life Christ told us to live.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Tiffany!

: Ephesians 2:8,9
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

This is Catholic teaching, pure and simple. We are saved by grace alone. It is a misconception that Catholics believe we are saved by works.

Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised from the dead, through shalt be saved”

Amen! Notice that this verse does not say that this is all that is necessary. Here scripture tells us that belief is necessary. Other verses indicate that other things are also necessary, for example baptism (Mark 16:16) and obedience (Rom 6:16).

The thief on the cross, Luke 23:42,43
“And he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt though be with me in paradise.”

The thief was just that, a thief if he were to be judged on whether he was to go to heaven or hell based on works, he would be in hell. But all he did was believe that Christ could save him and Jesus said that today he would be in paradise with him.

Works do not save us. Initial salvation is by grace alone. However, scripture is clear that we must remain in Christ (Col. 1: 22-23, Romans 11:22-23, 1 John 2:24, Matt 10:22, Mark 13:13, Heb 10:26-27, Heb 3:12-14, etc). The daily choices that we make either cause us to remain in Christ or to fall from grace (Gal 5:4). The theif received salvation and of course, had no opportunity to fall from grace.

Jesus talking to the sinfull women that wipped her hair and tears on his feet, Luke 7:50
“And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”

She had to then remain in Christ.

Romans 3:27, 28
“Where is boasting than? It is excluded. By what law of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Works of the law are not the works that justify (James 2:24).

Romans 4:5 (to get whole context 4:1-8)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."

Romans is all about one being justifed by faith apart from works of the law (the Mosaic Law). These are not the same type of works as in “faith working through love (Gal 5:6)”,

Romans 10:13
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”

Amen. But keep in mind it doesn’t say that all one has to do is call on the name of the Lord. Scripture must be taken as a whole and other necessaries are listed elsewhere. For example Christ said, “Why do you call me “Lord, Lord” but not do what I command?..the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground wthout a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed (Luke 6:46,49)”. (underlining mine)

So yes, Romans 10:13 tells us that it’s necessary to call upon the name of the Lord, but Luke 6 shows us that calling upon the name of the Lord is not enough.

Incidently, since calling on the name of the Lord is something that we have to “do” is could properly be called a “work”.

What are your takes on these verses?
Do these verses not state that it is by grace that we’re saved through faith and not works?

We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith and works. None of these verses states, or even implies, that faith is necessary but works are not. These verses show us that faith is necessary while others show us that works ( obedient choices) are necessary.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Katholikos]

Matt16_18:

Luther did NOT embrace the heresy of antinomianism. In fact, Luther is the author of the term “antinomianism”, which he applied to Johannes Agricola.

Check out this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Antinomianism

(anti, against, and nomos, law)

The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law. The term first came into use at the Protestant Reformation, when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teachings of Johannes Agricola and his secretaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion …

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I

Matt 16_18,

Luther’s letter to Melanchton clearly teaches OSAS. I have no information about whether Luther himself thought so. All I know is that Luther’s statement embodies OSAS as I was taught it as a Protestant and is the first time the concept appears in the historical record, to my knowledge. I don’t know zip about this guy Agricola. If Luther accused Agricola of misinterpreting his teaching, I can well understand where he (Agricola) got it. Luther may have denied it, but what he wrote can’t be denied.

A very old book I have (1929) is called The Question Box. Here’s what is says under “Justification”:

QUOTE:
The gift of final perseverance is so much the gift of God that the Council of Trent taught against Luther that, apart from some special revelaton, we can never be sure of it "with absolute and infallible certainty (Sess. vi, can. 16). [emphasis added]
END QUOTE

Here’s Trent:

QUOTE:
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
END QUOTE

Maybe Luther didn’t mean what he wrote? I dunno. Why dont we just agree that you’re right, if that will settle this, and let it go.

Peace be with you.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Tiffany,

The concept of “Assurance of Salvation” is known by a number of names: OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), POS (Perseverance of the Saints), Believer’s Security, etc.

A Protestant book that seeks to disprove this doctrine is The Believers Conditional Security (the word “conditional” is emphasized in the original title). The secondary title is “A study on perseverance and falling away.” The author is Daniel D. Corner, published by Evangelical Outreach, 801 pages.

evangelicaloutreach.org/

They publish a lot of anti-Catholic material as well.

OSAS is a minority position among Protestants.

JMJ Jay

 

[pendoko]

 Since God all-powerful, omniscient, and omnipotent, and can do anything He wills to do, it's not a question of what He can or cannot do, but what He did do. He established the conditions for man's salvation, and Once Saved Always Saved was not included.

I think that this is incorrect. You are accusing God of being unstable, unsecure and unfirm in all His dealings to man. And you are making man’s relationship to God as hard as possible, that no human could EVER attempt to satisfy that.

 Christianity is a revealed religion. God the Father made Himself and His requirements for salvation known to us through his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, and appointed His Apostles as its leaders; Peter was the Chief of the Apostles and the #1 leader of the Church. The Apostles taught the Church all that God had revealed through Christ. The Church has the duty of teaching this Truth to others. She must teach the Truth exactly as it was given to her by Christ through the Apostles. The Apostles did not teach OSAS and neither does the Church.

I think that you are wrong again. Romans 8 is a good example for that assurance of salvation’s topic. John 10 also is a good chapter.

 God made the rules. We must obey Him and His commandments until the end of our lives. No one has any right to presume that his salvation is secure, irrespective of the life he lives in the future.

That is true that there are rules that should be followed. The SAVED and SECURED Christians followed God and are following God not because they are forced to follow for afraid to go Hell, but follow God because they are God’s children. Bound and called to Heaven…they are the real adopted children of God, not by following any rules but by accepting Jesus as their God, Lord, Savior, and Teacher.

 We may know that we are going to heaven if we are in a state of grace; i.e., without sin, living in God's friendship; but if we deliberately violate His laws and die unrepentant, we are choosing not to be with Him in heaven. The wages of sin is death. We know the rules. We choose whether or not to obey them. We may be assured of our salvation if we meet the requirements -- but we may not have absolute, infallible certainty of salvation because we cannot presume that we will not fall into sin at some future time. Scripture says we must obey His commandments and persevere to the end [of our lives].

This is again one of the greatest error in Catholic Church and all churches around the world which did not teach assurance of salvation.

You need to think very carefully:

That we were created by God without our own knowledge. We never asked God to give us lfe, but He had given us life.

We never ask God to put us in earth with Satan and demons, but He brought us in this earth with human, Lucifer and demons.

Although we don’t want to sin, we will forced to commit sin since sin reigns into our body. And we don’t ask God to give us sin into our own body.

Meaning, GOD KNOWS that we are ALL frail, weak, sinner, and helpless creatures not because we ask for it, but because we cannot change our situation.

SO GOD had GIVEN us a chance/choice to be with Him in Heaven by making us His children. John 1:12…adopted children. This is being done by believing Jesus and accepting Him. Simple very simple, and yet very dificult.
And because we are His children, we are secured of anything from, to, by, and with God.

If you are not secured, then, you are not yet God’s child.

 

[Sherlock]

Pendoko,

I must say that your take on this is rather bizarre. I don’t have time now to go point by point (I have to leave in 5 minutes), but I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

You wrote: “Although we don’t want to sin, we will forced to commit sin since sin reigns into our body.”

My question is, forced by whom?

You wrote: “If you are not secured, then, you are not yet God’s child.”

I know a guy (friend’s ex-husband) who was a devout born-again Christian. He later “cooled” in his enthusiasmsand went on to commit adultery and theft, and ended up in jail for insurance fraud. He does not attend any services anymore, and is considering converting to Judaism. When I knew him before all of this happened, he was sure that he was saved. He was adherent of your theory of “once saved, always saved”. Obviously he was wrong, and could not predict the future after all. My question is, was he simply fooling himself all of those years? He THOUGHT he was saved. How can someone be so sure of their future acts?

 

[Matt16_18]

Katholikos:

Matt 16_18,

Luther’s letter to Melanchton clearly teaches OSAS. I have no information about whether Luther himself thought so. All I know is that Luther’s statement embodies OSAS as I was taught it as a Protestant and is the first time the concept appears in the historical record, to my knowledge. I don’t know zip about this guy Agricola.

Ask a Lutheran if they believe in OSAS. No Lutheran that I know would say that they believe in OSAS.

After Vatican II, Catholics and Lutherans entered a dialog for nearly 30 years concerning the doctrine of Justification. On October 31, 1999, the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation signed the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Catholics and Lutherans alike reject the false doctrine of OSAS.

Johannes Agricola was certainly not the first person in the historical record to embrace antinomianism. The Church was fighting this pernicious heresy from the very beginning - the first epistle of John was written to rebuke the “antichrists” that were teaching antinomianism.

 

[Matt16_18]

Katholikos:

All I know is that Luther’s statement embodies OSAS as I was taught it as a Protestant …

I agree with that. Luther did not personally believe in OSAS, but his highly defective “faith alone” theology supports OSAS.

Many Protestants are surprised to learn that neither Luther nor Calvin believed in OSAS, because one can easily quote from the writings of Luther and Calvin to show that their writings support this false doctrine. You have done a good job proving that, and the reason that you can do that is because Luther and Calvin were bad theologians that produced a body of work that is full of irreconcilable contradictions.

 

[twf]

We are certainly saved by grace alone…but not by faith alone. I assume you agree that we must accept Christ through repentance and faith to be saved. If so, then you agree that humans must do something to be saved. Obviously we are not saved because of what we did (faith, repentance, acceptance) but because of Christ’s grace; however, we must co-operate with God and be willing to receive this grace. So far I assume you agree with me. Thus, you already believe that humans must do something to be saved, and as accepting and believing in Christ takes effort (of will, mind, even if it is for a moment), it is, in a certain sense, a work. However, we can not take credit for our salvation, even though we must do something to receive it, as the Spirit gives us the grace to accept it in the first place.
Likewise, in Catholic theology, the grace given to us, which leads to true faith, inevitably, if we are co-operating with God’s plan of salvation, leads to good works, as the natural produce (fruit) of our grace-empowered faith. You see, if you are to say that human work (even works that are only made possible because of Christ’s grace) can not be part of our justification, then you must believe that all men will automatically be saved…because even in the Evangelical view we must exert a certain degree of effort to be saved (accepting Christ and repenting). The works that we do have nothing to do with earning salvation, but they are part of our justification process, when they flow from grace. Because we are brought into God’s family, the works that are produced by this grace become pleasing to God, and are our way of co-operating with God as He brings us to perfection. Dave Armstrong explains this in much more detail in the book: A Biblical Defence of Catholicism. (See his site ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM). In the next couple posts, I’ll be posting some Scriptures that support the importance of works in the salvation plan. Remember, we agree 100% that we are saved by grace alone, but rather than grace through faith, it is grace produces faith which produces works. Because of freewill, we must co-operate with God throughout the plan of salvation…in the Evangelical view, freewill ceases to exist, in a sense, once you perform a single initial ‘work’ (the initial assent of faith).

Remember also:
Often when Paul talks about justification, he tells us that it is not by works…but we must remember that 1) We are not saved because of works, they are only the natural progression after faith and grace 2) Paul is often talking about the works of the Law that we no longer must complete…they can do nothing for our salvation. This is often the context, as a number of early Christians subscribed (or were influenced) to a heresy that taught that we should still abide by the Law of Moses. For instance, in Romans 3:20 Paul clearly says “works of the law”, not works of charity which flow from grace: …because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Matthew 7:21-23
John 14:15
John 15:10
James 2:14-26
John 15:1-8
Matthew 18:23-35
Matthew 6:14-15
All of Matthew 25…and 24 as well.
Luke 13:6-9 (Can’t be saved without works…Christ makes it clear here).

In Christ,
Tyler

(Feel free to email me as well at tyler_fehr@hotmail.com. I am a former Protestant myself, currently seeking full communion with the Catholic Church—so I, and many of the other converts out there, should be able to understand where you’re coming from if you have any questions).

 

[pendoko]

Sherlock:

Pendoko,

I must say that your take on this is rather bizarre. I don’t have time now to go point by point (I have to leave in 5 minutes), but I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

You wrote: “Although we don’t want to sin, we will forced to commit sin since sin reigns into our body.”

My question is, forced by whom??

By our sinful nature. Romans 7.

Sherlock:

You wrote: “If you are not secured, then, you are not yet God’s child.”

I know a guy (friend’s ex-husband) who was a devout born-again Christian. He later “cooled” in his enthusiasmsand went on to commit adultery and theft, and ended up in jail for insurance fraud. He does not attend any services anymore, and is considering converting to Judaism. When I knew him before all of this happened, he was sure that he was saved. He was adherent of your theory of “once saved, always saved”. Obviously he was wrong, and could not predict the future after all. My question is, was he simply fooling himself all of those years? He THOUGHT he was saved. How can someone be so sure of their future acts?

That man that you had given as an example is not a real child of God.

Take note: All normal males/boys/man commit adultery by just looking lustfully to a girl/woman/female. Even priests, too!

Also all humans commit sin either by fraud, lies, etc so no one is exempted, even priest, too! As long as Lucifer and his demons are living with human and as long as human is living with Lucifer and demons, no human can make a perfect good works. So, no human is qualified to go to Heaven.

BUT by looking at your example, the above person that you had given was not really God’s adopted child. Look at what Peter had done, look at what David had done, look at what the disciples had done, they’ve committed sinful acts to God…but since they are God’s children, they will never be separated from God’s hands. The acts of sinfulness of God’s children is not caused by God’s children but by God’s permission to us because God had let humans and demons live together in the same earth. Meaning, God knew that we are all sinners, therefore, sinners in earth is not perfect…juts forgiven and saved.

This is the reason why God’s forgiveness is so great and huge since it is God who had let both humans and demons live together side by side in a small earth in the universe!

So, let those person finds his way. Besides, he is not yet God’s child. He may be called Christian, but he is not God’s child.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Originally Posted by Sherlock
*Pendoko,

I must say that your take on this is rather bizarre. I don’t have time now to go point by point (I have to leave in 5 minutes), but I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

You wrote: “Although we don’t want to sin, we will forced to commit sin since sin reigns into our body.”

My question is, forced by whom??*

By our sinful nature. Romans 7.

Hi pendoko!

Our sinful nature cannot force us to sin, it’s a choice to make. Sin is nothing other than giving into temptation. Scripture tells us that
1Co 10:13 - " God is faithful and He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that you are able to bear it."Sin is always a choice, never forced.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Originally Posted by Sherlock
*You wrote: “If you are not secured, then, you are not yet God’s child.”

I know a guy (friend’s ex-husband) who was a devout born-again Christian. He later “cooled” in his enthusiasmsand went on to commit adultery and theft, and ended up in jail for insurance fraud. He does not attend any services anymore, and is considering converting to Judaism. When I knew him before all of this happened, he was sure that he was saved. He was adherent of your theory of “once saved, always saved”. Obviously he was wrong, and could not predict the future after all. My question is, was he simply fooling himself all of those years? He THOUGHT he was saved. How can someone be so sure of their future acts?*

That man that you had given as an example is not a real child of God.

Take note: All normal males/boys/man commit adultery by just looking lustfully to a girl/woman/female. Even priests, too!

Also all humans commit sin either by fraud, lies, etc so no one is exempted, even priest, too! As long as Lucifer and his demons are living with human and as long as human is living with Lucifer and demons, no human can make a perfect good works. So, no human is qualified to go to Heaven.

BUT by looking at your example, the above person that you had given was not really God’s adopted child. Look at what Peter had done, look at what David had done, look at what the disciples had done, they’ve committed sinful acts to God…but since they are God’s children, they will never be separated from God’s hands. The acts of sinfulness of God’s children is not caused by God’s children but by God’s permission to us because God had let humans and demons live together in the same earth. Meaning, God knew that we are all sinners, therefore, sinners in earth is not perfect…juts forgiven and saved.

This is the reason why God’s forgiveness is so great and huge since it is God who had let both humans and demons live together side by side in a small earth in the universe!

So, let those person finds his way. Besides, he is not yet God’s child. He may be called Christian, but he is not God’s child.

Hi pendoko!

If you’re right about the man in the example not really having been saved then it’s possible that even you, yourself, are not actually saved. After all, just like you the man in the example believed he was saved. Just like the man you could one day fall away which would mean that you were never really saved to begin with. According to your argument no one can ever really know if one is saved since simply believing that one is doesn’t necessarily mean that one is.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Matt16_18]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi pendoko!

If you’re right about the man in the example not really having been saved then it’s possible that even you, yourself, are not actually saved.

Among the Calvinists, this lack of uncertainty can develop into what they call “salvation anxiety”. Calvinist OSAS doctrine is supposed to be a great comfort, but the results of this false doctrine are often the opposite of comfort. I once had a conversation with the daughter of a Korean Presbyterian minister that was depressed because she was certain that she was born as one of the damned. She was depressed because she was convinced that there was nothing she could do to avoid the eternal fires of Hell.

After all, just like you the man in the example believed he was saved. Just like the man you could one day fall away which would mean that you were never really saved to begin with. According to your argument no one can ever really know if one is saved since simply believing that one is doesn’t necessarily mean that one is.

Calvinists believe that there are many people who only think that they are among the elect. Some of these people who think that they are “saved” are really part of the crowd who are “damned but don’t know it”.

If one suffers from scrupulosity, Calvinism can be living hell.

 

[jimmy]

A great verse that says that you have to follow the commandments of Christ is Luke6;46

46

And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say? 47 Every one that cometh to me, and heareth my words, and doth them, I will shew you to whom he is like. 48 He is like to a man building a house, who digged deep, and laid the foundation upon a rock. And when a flood came, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and it could not shake it; for it was founded on a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doth not, is like to a man building his house upon the earth without a foundation: against which the stream beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great. *

 

[StubbleSpark]

I think one the most important things when talking about justification is the nature of sin itself. God did not create sin because He is all-good. Sin is a LACK of faith demonstrated by us because of our weakness. We “create” sin by turning from God. So sin is a negative, a hole, a “not”.

Not having faith IS sin. Sin IS not having faith. Not only does this give us a better understanding of what God is an is not, it also brings sense and unity to seeming contradictions in Scripture when one passage emphasizes faith. Emphasizing faith does nothing to refute the idea that we can lose our salvation, it only shows how the good deeds we do are not under our own power but are the work of the Holy Spirit through us – so that we may not boast.

I wrote more about how faith and action are the same thing in a previous post forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=301474#post301474

The entire Bible from the Genesis to Revelations is one constant refutation of OSAS. What if Abraham “believed” but did not go to sacrifice his son? If Noah “believed” in the flood but did not build the Ark? If Moses “believed” but did not lead the Israelites? If David “believed” but did not kill Goliath? If Jesus “believed” but did not go to the cross willingly? If St. Paul “believed” but did not teach? No where in the Bible is the concept of faith and action delineated as opposing except when criticizing the legalist’s claim that God “owes” him salvation. And that only APPEARS to put them in opposition.

I find it interesting that you keep quoting (perhaps unknowingly) from the Catholic rule of Scripture interpretation – that scripture cannot contradict itself. Maybe you should check out salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/class1_lesson1.cfm

As a Baptist, we were constantly confused by the Bible and how it could be used to justify anything. Of course, this did nothing to bolster our belief that our faith was any more correct than anyone else’s.

I also find it interesting that you go to a “non-denominational” church. I often point out to my friends that “non-denominational” is in fact, a denomination. Then I like to point out the fact that “Catholic” means “universal.” Just to sort of prove who thought of that warm fuzzy idea first.

I’ll put you in my prayers.

 

[Tiffany]

StubbleSpark:

I think one the most important things when talking about justification is the nature of sin itself. God did not create sin because He is all-good. Sin is a LACK of faith demonstrated by us because of our weakness. We “create” sin by turning from God. So sin is a negative, a hole, a “not”.

Not having faith IS sin. Sin IS not having faith. Not only does this give us a better understanding of what God is an is not, it also brings sense and unity to seeming contradictions in Scripture when one passage emphasizes faith. Emphasizing faith does nothing to refute the idea that we can lose our salvation, it only shows how the good deeds we do are not under our own power but are the work of the Holy Spirit through us – so that we may not boast.

I wrote more about how faith and action are the same thing in a previous post forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=301474#post301474

The entire Bible from the Genesis to Revelations is one constant refutation of OSAS. What if Abraham “believed” but did not go to sacrifice his son? If Noah “believed” in the flood but did not build the Ark? If Moses “believed” but did not lead the Israelites? If David “believed” but did not kill Goliath? If Jesus “believed” but did not go to the cross willingly? If St. Paul “believed” but did not teach? No where in the Bible is the concept of faith and action delineated as opposing except when criticizing the legalist’s claim that God “owes” him salvation. And that only APPEARS to put them in opposition.

I find it interesting that you keep quoting (perhaps unknowingly) from the Catholic rule of Scripture interpretation – that scripture cannot contradict itself. Maybe you should check out salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/class1_lesson1.cfm

As a Baptist, we were constantly confused by the Bible and how it could be used to justify anything. Of course, this did nothing to bolster our belief that our faith was any more correct than anyone else’s.

I also find it interesting that you go to a “non-denominational” church. I often point out to my friends that “non-denominational” is in fact, a denomination. Then I like to point out the fact that “Catholic” means “universal.” Just to sort of prove who thought of that warm fuzzy idea first.

I’ll put you in my prayers.

I’m not going to say what I believe yet because I am not done studying the scriptures. However I will say that I was not quoting anything from the Catholics. I was stating what I believe and infact I know very little about Catholics exept for following traditions such as lent and believing in pergitory sp?. And I’m not even sure that all Catholics believe that. Also as a Baptist I was never confused about the Bible and I’m still not. Not all Baptists believe the same and therefor your Baptist upbringing could have been very different from mine and how they taught from the pulpit. And why do you find it interesting that I now go to a nondenominational church?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Calvinists believe that there are many people who only think that they are among the elect. Some of these people who think that they are “saved” are really part of the crowd who are “damned but don’t know it”.

And it goes without saying that that applies to everyone except the person who believe this because, of course, he’s really one of the elect.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Katholikos]

I agree with that. Luther did not personally believe in OSAS, but his highly defective “faith alone” theology supports OSAS.

Many Protestants are surprised to learn that neither Luther nor Calvin believed in OSAS, because one can easily quote from the writings of Luther and Calvin to show that their writings support this false doctrine. You have done a good job proving that, and the reason that you can do that is because Luther and Calvin were bad theologians that produced a body of work that is full of irreconcilable contradictions.

You say Luther and Calvin denied teaching OSAS, but whether they meant it or not, they said it. Though their teaching may have had unintended consequences, the origin of OSAS should be laid at their feet.

 

[pendoko]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi pendoko!

Our sinful nature cannot force us to sin, it’s a choice to make. Sin is nothing other than giving into temptation. Scripture tells us that
1Co 10:13 - " God is faithful and He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that you are able to bear it."Sin is always a choice, never forced.

In Christ,
Nancy

I think that you are wrong in analyzing the Biblical facts.

Look below:

Romans
7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Without God, man can’t fight the power of sin.

 

[pendoko]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi pendoko!

If you’re right about the man in the example not really having been saved then it’s possible that even you, yourself, are not actually saved. After all, just like you the man in the example believed he was saved. Just like the man you could one day fall away which would mean that you were never really saved to begin with. According to your argument no one can ever really know if one is saved since simply believing that one is doesn’t necessarily mean that one is.

In Christ,
Nancy

I am saved BUT I am not perfect. God had already told us that believing Him and accepting Him can make a person His child…adopted child. Is there anything that could separate us from the love of God? When God holds your hands, is there anything or anyone can separate His child from His hands?

You are separated because you are not His child.