Why would a Muslim care at all whether a Christian believed in Nestorianism? In the Iraqi homeland of the Nestorians, Muslims bombed Siadat an-Najat Syriac Catholic (read: not Nestorian) Church over a rumor about Copts in Egypt. Something tells me they don’t understand or care about theological differences between Christians, except maybe to exploit them for their own religion’s sake, if possible (example: I had a Muslim once tell me that he and I were “brothers” since [he believed that] Copts don’t believe in Christ’s divinity, either…
:nope: :banghead
.This must be news to ACoE Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV:
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I really am not that familiar with Copts, the few here go to the Eastern Orthodox church and are full members. There are to few of them locally to have a church of their own.Ahhh, I see what you meant now, Andrewstx. Apologies for my somewhat limited reading comprehension skills. I think I just spent too much time with Arabic-speakers, where as far as I can tell, it’s “Salib” or “Salib”.
Yes, I don’t think they have crucifixes, either. But I think that’s mostly a Catholic thing, is it not? They don’t really feature prominently in the Coptic Church, either. The pulpit at my church has one affixed to it, but I guess I’d chalk that up to the fact that there is no Orthodox religious supplier here, only RC, so we have all kinds of weird stuff that you probably wouldn’t find in an Orthodox Church outside of this part of the country. Just yesterday before Vespers we stopped at the religious supply store so that the priest could get some candles and after waiting in the car for quite a long time, the priest came back to the car and said “Sorry it took so long…it took me a while to find the section without the Roman Pope’s picture on everything.” (I don’t know whether or not these were bought yesterday, but I did notice upon leaving liturgy this afternoon there was a small box of shabbat candles next to one of the icons of the Theotokos!
Crucifixes with the body done in relief are also permissible. Something like 3/4 of the figure can be shown (basically a high relief). A body which is more free than that is discouraged.
You’re Chaldean for goodness sake! How could you even ask such a question? How don’t you know the answer to this? Have you even been to a Chaldean mass, which is nearly identical to the one used by the Assyrian Church of the East? The source you posted is not even real! It’s a mock Wikipedia…
That is completely inaccurate, the Church of the East does not affirm the doctrines of Nestorius, and it is derogatory to call the Church and its believers as Nestorian. Please refrain from using the term Nestorian in the future.
That too.
With due respect, I take bishops and believers of the ACoE to be accurately reflecting the beliefs of the ACoE in that video and in other sources. As they say, they believe in what Nestorius taught. I do not care to be politically correct about this matter any more than they do. They are Nestorians. It’s not an epithet; it’s an affirmation that they have their own theology that is rooted in ideas which Nestorius taught, as is explained already by Bishop Narsli De Bas (perhaps watching the video from the beginning will eliminate charges that I am misrepresenting anyone). The fact that for us OO he is a heretic…well, that’s why the Copts stopped any dialogue with the ACoE after the meeting at the Monastery of St. Bishoy in the mid-1990s. As is explained by H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy, we thought we were meeting to get the ACoE to agree to cease any veneration or propagation of the teachings of Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, and Diodore of Tarsus (all of whom are objectionable, from the OO view) in their churches, as would be necessary if we were to ever be in communion again, but instead it was put forth at a subsequent gathering by ACoE theologian Mar Bawai Soro that “as we (ACoE) do not ask anyone to revile the memory of Cyril, we would respectfully ask not to be required to abandon our long held admiration of and appreciation for Nestorius.”
I completely agree with you that the continued veneration and defense of the heretical persons Nestorius, Theodore, and Diodore are major obstacles and lingering burdens from the past stopping further ecumenical dialogue. However, the theology of the ACoE is not Nestorian, as the video you posted incorrectly states, as it rejects the Christology of Nestorius, but continuing to contradict itself by defending him. I think it’s akin (but in a more extreme way) to Eastern Orthodox churches continuing to venerate St. Augustine, yet rejecting his major theological doctrines. The official and accepted Christology of the ACoE is that of Mar Babai the Great, which is a part of Chaldean Catholic theology as well:
I have been to plenty of Chaldean Liturgies but never to an Assyrian Church of the East liturgy. I knew that they were very similar and this is why I posed the question in the first place. I was shocked to read that but since that’s a bad source then I’ll take your word for it. Thank you for answering the question. I guess I could have just asked Mar Bawai.
