Astral travel?

[Marilena]

Hi Sailboat…

Can i ask you a fair question? If you seen a watchtower or awake magazine on a park bench, and knowing what jw’s preach about not receving blood transfusion, and thousands of their members die every year because they could’ve saved their lives with a transfusion, what would you do if you saw those magazines, knowing that they enforce the no blood policy? What if someone who was looking for a religion, and just happened to pick that magazine up, and sometime in the future, that person has been brainwashed deeply indoctrinated by the falsetower, desperately needs a blood transfusion and refuses one and dies? could you have perhaps prevented that person from going into the WTB&TS? Yes. I pick them up or take them from jw’s on the street and discreetly dispose of them so that perhaps one life is saved. As far as the poster of astral travel, I think Ceaser did the right thing. What if he helped prevent someone from a dangerous cult? Don’t you think that in this case, where the Bible states, we have to obey God as ruler rather than man, that that supercedes mans law? Yes it does. Astral travel is dangerous and it can let evil spirits in, and I think Ceaser did the right thing, He obeyed God as ruler rather than man.

 

[Caesar]

Ok, this thread got a bit off-topic…

The issue wasnt to discuss whether it was right for me to take down the poster, but for someone to explain what Astral travel is and why it is wrong. Thanks to those who explained that to me

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

I would state that removing information, censoring in such a way, is often not a good policy. Imagine the person who placed the poster there saw you remove it, and knew you were Catholic. Now this person thinks “Catholics want to hide the truth, so people will buy into their false religion…” or some such.

Though there are cases where Watchtower magazines should be removed, sometimes it may be better to place a “Pillar of Fire/Pillar of Truth” pamphlet nearby.

To spread the fire of Truth will be more effective than stamping out brushfires of lies.

At least, as far as I think.

But the Watchtower question does raise an important point…

Beyond this, we should note that the topic of this message has changed somewhat, and we probably should create a post about appropriete Christian reponsibilities toward censorship, both in our homes and in the world.

Good questions and good points everyone!

 

[Marilena]

I brought the point up about the falsetower because sailboat was mentioning about removing the poster as not a good idea, but in fact, it was. i don’t have more than 1 pillar of fire mag. anyways, i made my point, and am terribly sorry that i took it off track, i just wanted sailboat to think of the poster removal from a different point of view.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Astral travel:



I don’t find anything wrong with it.

As for Gnosticism…it’s a damnable heresy!

 

[Marilena]

Astral travel:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/157061main_image_feature_652_ys_4.jpg

I don’t find anything wrong with it.

 

[Sailboat]

If I saw a Watchtower on a park bench, I’d probably read it. If that’s their newsy publication, I have to say that it has some good articles. They have one call ‘Awake!’ and one called ‘Watchtower’ and one is newsy, and the other is boring and about their religion.

The park bench, though, isn’t a public bulletin board, so I think you’re free to throw things away left there. After all, it’s really littering to leave something there.

As far as astral travel, I think it’s probably a fantasy. It’s against Christian thought to think of the body and spirit separately, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think we people have this power.

 

[trth_skr]

If I saw a Watchtower on a park bench, I’d probably read it. If that’s their newsy publication, I have to say that it has some good articles. They have one call ‘Awake!’ and one called ‘Watchtower’ and one is newsy, and the other is boring and about their religion.

The park bench, though, isn’t a public bulletin board, so I think you’re free to throw things away left there. After all, it’s really littering to leave something there.

As far as astral travel, I think it’s probably a fantasy. It’s against Christian thought to think of the body and spirit separately, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think we people have this power.

I think astral travel is related to the occult, usually in satanic worship.

I would have no problem tearing the poster down. Many modern ideas of liberty and freedom of speech are largely deceptions anyway. It is a deception that we now consider good. When good = bad and bad = good,…

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
JMJ+

 

[TimOliv]

A fair point, but what if someone says that about the Catholic poster you put up, that they ripped down?

Even though they are wrong, from the standpoint of they American legal system, you have acted no better than they have. Change the rules for one group, and you change them for all groups.

Scary.

I’m not suggesting that we change the rules for anyone. I am NOT speaking as to the constitutionality of ripping down the poster or its right to be there. I am speaking of myself and all of us as Catholics.

Rip the poster down.

 

[Sailboat]

Wow, I’m really shocked at the people on Catholic Answers. I thought conservative Catholics had more respect for American principles of democratic ideals. I think it’s scary, reading your attitudes.

I truly believe that Democracy requires an educated citizenship that is committed to tolerance of religious differences, including wacky New Age ideas. Remember, they think that we are wacky too. They think we are backwards and guilt ridden, and oppressive to women and gays.

I think you guys are uneducated in your civic responsibilties.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…is committed to tolerance of religious differences…I think you guys are uneducated…

God certainly tolerates error, and Christ is our Lord and model of behavior. Consequently, Catholic doctrine regarding religious liberty includes toleration of error, but up to a point, because Christ himself tolerates error up to a point (cf. Rev 2:20-23 - “I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jez’ebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols…Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed…I will strike her children dead.”)

It is a function of prudence to determine when toleration of error becomes an unjust participation in error.

As for me, I would not have taken the poster down simply because it promoted Gnosticism. The best defense against error, is the relentless proclamation of Truth.

 

[trth_skr]

Wow, I’m really shocked at the people on Catholic Answers. I thought conservative Catholics had more respect for American principles of democratic ideals. I think it’s scary, reading your attitudes.

I truly believe that Democracy requires an educated citizenship that is committed to tolerance of religious differences, including wacky New Age ideas. Remember, they think that we are wacky too. They think we are backwards and guilt ridden, and oppressive to women and gays.

I think you guys are uneducated in your civic responsibilties.

I have respect for civil law. Tearing down the poster likely is not breaking any law. Also, civil law and rules at apartment complexes, etc. need to be subservient to natural law and Christ the King. Technically, when Jesus kicked over the tables of the money changers, he was breaking Roman law and the rules of operation of the Jewish temple. Was he irresponsible? And, please, democracy is not a sacrosanct principle, so please do not invoke it as being any different than the laws and rules at the time of Christ. The Scriptures tell us that all civil power is by the authority of God- even those of pagans, etc. Of course pagan rulers, as a minimum need to heed nartural law. Now that we have the Church, the world should be under the auspices of Christ the King. The best we can do in the US today, as a nation, is follow natural law, since our constitution (federal at least: I have an updated version of this- contact me by private message if you are interested) does not recognize God.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
JMJ+

 

[Sir_Knight]

What would Jesus have done? Would He have left it there? No, I don’t think so.

You are right, he didn’t just leave the money changers in the temple. Is he going to leave the satanists in the looby?

We are not debating the constitutional issue of the poster. We are debating the moral issue of the poster. The law of God supercedes the law of man. If removing the poster could possibly prevent a person from getting sucked into the occult, I would do it.

Rip the poster down.

Let us remember that God created us with a free will so that WE can decide things for ourselves. He does not force Himself upon us even if it means the loss of our immortal soul. If God can respect our free will, who are we to take that freedom of choice away from others?

Let’s not forget that two wrongs do not make a right and the end does not justify the means.

 

[AnthonyM2]

As far as astral travel, I think it’s probably a fantasy. It’s against Christian thought to think of the body and spirit separately, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think we people have this power.

Except after death, then the soul departs the body of course… and sometimes may be permitted to manifest itself, as in the case of Samuel appearing to King Saul in the Bible. (There was another thread discussing belief in ghosts before the crash.)

But I also wonder why everything that has some spiritualist element that isn’t specifically mentioned or condoned by scripture or church teaching is automatically considered occult and demonic. It seems like a fundementalist response to see the devil in everything, even like in Harry Potter (that’s a whole other can of worms) that I’ve seen in other threads.

 

[trth_skr]

Except after death, then the soul departs the body of course… and sometimes may be permitted to manifest itself, as in the case of Samuel appearing to King Saul in the Bible. (There was another thread discussing belief in ghosts before the crash.)

But I also wonder why everything that has some spiritualist element that isn’t specifically mentioned or condoned by scripture or church teaching is automatically considered occult and demonic. It seems like a fundementalist response to see the devil in everything, even like in Harry Potter (that’s a whole other can of worms) that I’ve seen in other threads.

This is not definite evidence, but I know of at least one person who was involved in astral travel, and it was related to satanism. I have generally heard of it in that context.

As for Harry Potter, I will go with the opinion of Father Amaroth; though it is ot binding.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
JMJ+

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I want to clarify that it is Gnosticism that is the error here, not “mysticism.” Christianity has a rich tradition of mysticism and supernatural revelations. It is not, in itself, something to be reproached.

 

[AnthonyM2]

I want to clarify that it is Gnosticism that is the error here, not “mysticism.” Christianity has a rich tradition of mysticism and supernatural revelations. It is not, in itself, something to be reproached.

I readily agree with that. What about cases of saints, like Padre Pio, having been known to bi-locate (be seen in two places at one time), could this be a form of “good” astral travel, albeit in physical appearance?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I readily agree with that. What about cases of saints, like Padre Pio, having been known to bi-locate (be seen in two places at one time), could this be a form of “good” astral travel, albeit in physical appearance?

I was thinking of St. Pio as well, and also St. John the Apostle who was “caught up in the Spirit” on Patmos.

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

I would say that Astral Travel is certainly to be reproached.

Gifts and miracles of God are not.

Astral Travel concentrates on the person’s own power to bilocate, etc., which clearly no person has. So astral travel must be untrue.

Bilocation, as in the case of Padre Pio, is a power of God, never of the good Father.

 

[AnthonyM2]

I would say that Astral Travel is certainly to be reproached.

Gifts and miracles of God are not.

Astral Travel concentrates on the person’s own power to bilocate, etc., which clearly no person has. So astral travel must be untrue.

Bilocation, as in the case of Padre Pio, is a power of God, never of the good Father.

Yes, of course, in the case of the saints it is by the power of God. Didn’t mean to imply otherwise.