Astrology and Catholicism

[Suspicious_Mind]

Now I know that astrology is rejected in catholicism, but I do not quite understand why. I was on the train the other day reading a newspaper, and I was reading the crossword section and glanced at the horoscope section. I’m no astrologer, nor someone who follows horoscopes but I couldn’t help noticing that whenever I have read them, they don’t suggest doing anything that could be considered evil.

In fact a lot of it is generic advice, often I see statements like “be careful with money matters today”, “call that person that has been on your mind for a long time”, “make amends with a relative”, “you have to develop a more organized day-to-day life to achieve that goal that has been on your mind”

I frankly don’t see what’s wrong with astrology, barring it has no scientific basis, and whether or not it’s true, it doesn’t seem to have anything inherently evil in it. Even the deeper projections you can get online don’t have anything that suggest or hints evil, if anything they all seem to point towards aspects of self-improvement, almost like something from a motivational speaker.

So what’s the deal?

 

[thistle]

Now I know that astrology is rejected in catholicism, but I do not quite understand why. I was on the train the other day reading a newspaper, and I was reading the crossword section and glanced at the horoscope section. I’m no astrologer, nor someone who follows horoscopes but I couldn’t help noticing that whenever I have read them, they don’t suggest doing anything that could be considered evil.

In fact a lot of it is generic advice, often I see statements like “be careful with money matters today”, “call that person that has been on your mind for a long time”, “make amends with a relative”, “you have to develop a more organized day-to-day life to achieve that goal that has been on your mind”

I frankly don’t see what’s wrong with astrology, barring it has no scientific basis, and whether or not it’s true, it doesn’t seem to have anything inherently evil in it. Even the deeper projections you can get online don’t have anything that suggest or hints evil, if anything they all seem to point towards aspects of self-improvement, almost like something from a motivational speaker.

So what’s the deal?

The Church teaching:

CCC 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

The Church teaching:

CCC 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

Could I get an answer that is of your own thinking with some reasoning behind it, without parroting out some response that I already said I’m aware of.

Furthermore, most of what you quoted there has absolutely nothing to do with horoscopes, and I don’t think a desire for power seemingly contradicts honour and respect for a God, it entirely depends on someone’s intentions as to what to do with said power, so pigeonholing and making a wide sweeping statement is erroneous and most likely, completely inapplicable, like here.

 

[Ben_F]

Going to a horoscope and reading it, has something to do with horoscopes. You want advice on what you should do today, go to God´s word instead. Accepting that horoscopes have value is close to rejecting some of God´s value. Like anything else in this world, even a second of enjoyment in it, is a second of not enjoying God. I read horoscopes from time to time also. I don´t believe in them. I take a drink once in a while, I don´t enslave myself to it. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[puzzleannie]

Now I know that astrology is rejected in catholicism, but I do not quite understand why. I was on the train the other day reading a newspaper, and I was reading the crossword section and glanced at the horoscope section. I’m no astrologer, nor someone who follows horoscopes but I couldn’t help noticing that whenever I have read them, they don’t suggest doing anything that could be considered evil.

?

in the first place the column in the daily paper has little or nothing to do with astrology and at least in my newspaper experience often written by a staffer with absolutely no background in astrology, or contracted from a syndicate, who seldom employ actual astrologers to write that stuff. In the second place if astrology were only a matter of offering generic good advice that applies to anyone, no there would be no problem. When someone claims to be able to use the stars to predict the future or to have access to supernatural knowledge through a practice they call astrology, there is a problem. the column in the paper is not a horoscope. A horoscope is a prediction about the future of the subject’s life drawn up by a person who claims to have that supernatural knowledge through study of the heavenly bodies and their changing alignments in relation to earth. They usually charge money for the service if that sheds light on their credibility.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So what’s the deal?

It’s the potential to obsessively start taking them seriously and yes, that tendency is a little higher and shiftier than your regular hobby. I should know. I had a classmate who carried an entire book on ‘deeper’ horoscope readings. Not a pretty sight, in either the Catholic’s or skeptic’s perspective.

 

[Ahimsa]

When someone claims to be able to use the stars to predict the future

…like the Wise Men who predicted the birth of a savior because of the stars?

or to have access to supernatural knowledge through a practice they call astrology, there is a problem. the column in the paper is not a horoscope. A horoscope is a prediction about the future of the subject’s life drawn up by a person who claims to have that supernatural knowledge through study of the heavenly bodies and their changing alignments in relation to earth. They usually charge money for the service if that sheds light on their credibility.

Astrology doesn’t claim to give “supernatural” knowledge, because the stars are quite natural.

Not all astrologers charge money.

The problem with astrology is not the claims of prediction (because modern science is often utilized for predictions). In fact, I would say that there is nothing inherently problematic with astrology per se. The problem with astrology is the same problem with modern science: the use of such knowledge as a way to gain power over other people, in a negative manner. Such knowledge need not be used in that way, but the temptation is there.

 

[Hokomai]

I am not a believer in either God or astrology, but I can clearly see that being a Catholic on the one hand, and considering that the movements of planets or stars determines the social experiences of people is contradictory. Oddly, I far more often tell people that I am a nonbeliever in astrology than I find opportunity to tell them what I think about God. It happens when people ask my star sign and I deny having one, pointing out that there is no greater significance to the bunch of stars they are talking about than to any randomly selected group of stars. I also tell them that they don’t have one either. Some get upset.

 

[Fink]

in the first place the column in the daily paper has little or nothing to do with astrology and at least in my newspaper experience*** often written by a ***staffer with absolutely no background in astrology, or contracted from a syndicate, who seldom employ actual astrologers to write that stuff.

Both of those cases are evil, especially the syndicate one which makes money out of people`s gullibility. The staff writer one is evil, too, because the ultimate goal is to boost sales, no matter how indirectly.

…the column in the paper is not a horoscope

That`s true in itself; but it can cause some (gullible) readers to sin (by believing in it). “A near occasion of sin.”

Could I get an answer that is of your own thinking with some reasoning behind it, without*** parroting ***out some response that I already said I’m aware of.

Please, be more careful with your choice of words! Throwing the word “parroting”, along with the rest of that sentence, at someone who`s trying to give a sound answer, is pretty offensive.

Furthermore, most of what you quoted there has absolutely nothing to do with horoscopes, and*** I don’t think a desire for power seemingly contradicts honour and respect for a God,***

Yes it does. Leaving out the word “seemingly”, any attempt to obtain power or knowledge by violating the laws of nature, is an offence to God, and therefore, evil.

it entirely depends on someone’s intentions as to what to do with said power, so pigeonholing and making a wide sweeping statement is erroneous and most likely, completely inapplicable, like here.

Youre looking at it from a non-Catholic (agnostic or atheist?) perspective; and your conclusion is wrong. Regarding the seeking of knowledge or power beyond the natural means,*** the end doesnt justify the means.***

Like it or not, thistle is dead right. So`s Lost Wanderer

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Going to a horoscope and reading it, has something to do with horoscopes.

I would have thought that it would be extremely obvious without the need to actually state it

Why, oh why would you state that?

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

in the first place the column in the daily paper has little or nothing to do with astrology and at least in my newspaper experience often written by a staffer with absolutely no background in astrology, or contracted from a syndicate, who seldom employ actual astrologers to write that stuff.

I wouldn’t know about the truth of that, it could be true.

In the second place if astrology were only a matter of offering generic good advice that applies to anyone, no there would be no problem. When someone claims to be able to use the stars to predict the future or to have access to supernatural knowledge through a practice they call astrology, there is a problem. the column in the paper is not a horoscope. A horoscope is a prediction about the future of the subject’s life drawn up by a person who claims to have that supernatural knowledge through study of the heavenly bodies and their changing alignments in relation to earth.

I went online and entered some information into a natal horoscope chart and it gave a page worth of information, a lot of predictions of this and that, I did not see anything that would be seemingly evil. Since they are pretty generic, they don’t seem to be able to tell you to do exactly this, or exactly that. I’d like to see an example of this kind of horoscope that you’re talking about that entails great evil.

Let’s focus on the actual point of contention here; that is the horoscope itself, I am not concerned at this moment in time about who drew the prediction or what they claim to be. I am concerned with the material of the actual horoscope, please produce something that would be considered “evil” by the Church.

They usually charge money for the service if that sheds light on their credibility.

Catholic aged care services also charge for their services, should that shed further light on their credibility in respect to that? I’m not concerned about whether or not some astrologers charge for their services that is wholly irrelevant to the nature of the field itself.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

I am not a believer in either God or astrology, but I can clearly see that being a Catholic on the one hand, and considering that the movements of planets or stars determines the social experiences of people is contradictory. Oddly, I far more often tell people that I am a nonbeliever in astrology than I find opportunity to tell them what I think about God. It happens when people ask my star sign and I deny having one, pointing out that there is no greater significance to the bunch of stars they are talking about than to any randomly selected group of stars. I also tell them that they don’t have one either. Some get upset.

It’s fairly probable that when most people ask you for their star sign they don’t actually believe in horoscopes and astrology either, it’s just a common question and something people attribute to their month regardless of whether they believe in or not. There’s no need to be so pedantic, and whether or not you want to deny it, if you were born in any of the 12 months which you are, you have a star sign according to the horoscope, whether or not someone believes in it or not is a different matter.

It’s like being born on the 25th of December and denying that you’re born on Christmas Day because you don’t believe in it, well you may not believe in it, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you’re born on a day that is perceived to be Christ’s birthday (historically) by some.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Yes it does. Leaving out the word “seemingly”, any attempt to obtain power or knowledge by violating the laws of nature, is an offence to God, and therefore, evil.

So what laws of nature were violated in drawing up horoscopes, elaborate.

I’m afraid your conclusion would be only valid if you can prove your two premises there first.

Youre looking at it from a non-Catholic (agnostic or atheist?) perspective; and your conclusion is wrong. Regarding the seeking of knowledge or power beyond the natural means,*** the end doesnt justify the means.***

Are you stating that because I’m looking at from a non-Catholic perspective I’m therefore wrong, or the conclusion is wrong in general? Because you might be tip-toeing the thin line of fallacy

You’ve also committed a non-sequitir fallacy anyhow. One needs to establish that seeking the knowledge of power beyond the natural means as in the case of astrology is evil and then apply the “end doesn’t justify the means” theory, I don’t see any such link unless you accept that it is evil in and of itself, and that’s not proven, at least not by you here in this post, nor anyone else in this post. I’m talking about a sound objective argument, not a statement by the Church on their position.

Like it or not, thistle is dead right. So`s Lost Wanderer

Like it or not, neither, you, thistle or anyone else here has proved the evils of astrology. I’m not saying there is no evil and that’s what I’m here to find out, the reasoning, but none of you have done it so far. Strange that one would think that a few lines of an assertion on someone’s stance is actually an argument against something.

After so much Christian opposition to astrology, I was hoping the Catholics being the more philosophically apt than the other Christian denominations would be able to offer some reasonable explanation, but all I get is some kind of variation of an appeal-to-authority. Let me put it this way, if you can’t explain your reasoning without mindlessly stating the Church’s position, I am not interested.

 

[Fink]

…like the Wise Men who predicted the birth of a savior because of the stars?

And, where did their astrology lead them? To Jerusalem, and the mass-murderer King Horrid! (not a typo!)
Father MItchell Pacwa is a New Age authority, and former practitioner of astrology and other New Age “stuff”. He pointed out the above; and went on to say that it was SCRIPTURE which led the magi to Bethlehem.

Astrology doesn’t claim to give “supernatural” knowledge, because the stars are quite natural.

But the “knowledge” sought is obtained by violating the natural law. Not on!
That`s different from the case where Heaven chooses to give us some “info”: eg at Fatima.

the use of such knowledge as ***a way to gain power over other people, in a negative ***manner. Such knowledge need not be used in that way, but the temptation is there.

Therein lies part of the problem. But, even when used in a “positive” manner, it`s still wrong/evil.

I am not a believer in either God or astrology, but I can clearly see that being a Catholic on the one hand, and considering that the movements of planets or stars determines the social experiences of people is contradictory…

…I also tell them that they don’t have one either. Some get upset.

Well said.
It`s strange that in this so-called scientific age, so many believe it.

I would have thought that it would be extremely obvious without the need to actually state it

Why, oh why would you state that?

Ben`s just reinforcing the truth that a horrorscope is a horrorscope (not a typo there, either). Like:
Murder is murder.
East is east…
Black is black.
Ad nauseum.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Ben`s just reinforcing the truth that a horrorscope is a horrorscope (not a typo there, either). Like:
Murder is murder.
East is east…
Black is black.
Ad nauseum.

I somehow do not think that was what he was trying to do, and if he was, that really was quite silly and pointless. We do not need Captain Obvious visiting the thread.

 

[thistle]

Could I get an answer that is of your own thinking with some reasoning behind it, without parroting out some response that I already said I’m aware of.

Furthermore, most of what you quoted there has absolutely nothing to do with horoscopes, and I don’t think a desire for power seemingly contradicts honour and respect for a God, it entirely depends on someone’s intentions as to what to do with said power, so pigeonholing and making a wide sweeping statement is erroneous and most likely, completely inapplicable, like here.

Sorry my friend but the Church teaching SPECIFICALLY mentions horoscopes so don’t tell us what I quoted from ther CCC has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, are you saying you don’t like the Church’s teaching and that I should only make a comment if I disagree with the teaching??? Why should I not quote what the Church teaches when I am fully in agreement with it???

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Sorry my friend but the Church teaching SPECIFICALLY mentions horoscopes so don’t tell us what I quoted from ther CCC has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, are you saying you don’t like the Church’s teaching and that I should only make a comment if I disagree with the teaching??? Why should I not quote what the Church teaches when I am fully in agreement with it???

Learn to read, I said most of that had nothing to do with horoscopes. Please try to read, reading is so important these days. And what little it did mention of horoscopes was just that, a passing mention, there was no attempt of a decent proof, it was just a statement. Learn to see the distinction between solid reasoning and a simple assertion.

You may quote anything you wish provided you can provide your own reasoning for what you quoted, or their reasoning. That statement you provided is not a formal reasoning for why the Church does not accept it, it is a stance, a position that they have stated and is not a proof for their stance.

Do you not see the point? I don’t frankly care if you’re in agreement with it or not, I don’t need you to state the obvious, in fact I think I would have known that without you having to explicitly state it. I know you’re in agreement with the Church on that matter, the question is why, reasoning.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

It’s the potential to obsessively start taking them seriously and yes, that tendency is a little higher and shiftier than your regular hobby. I should know. I had a classmate who carried an entire book on ‘deeper’ horoscope readings. Not a pretty sight, in either the Catholic’s or skeptic’s perspective.

I was wondering who this “Lost Wanderer” was when someone referenced you earlier, and it seems I had missed your post, I do beg your pardon.

It seems to me then what you say is an unhealthy desire for them, the potential to be obsessed with it. OK, granted, much like anything else, an unhealthy obsessive desire is problematic, this doesn’t prove astrology is inherently evil though does it?

Eating is a good thing, but someone can have an unhealthy excessive desire for it, so is eating also bad?

Whether or not you know a classmate with some obsession with it is irrelevant, what about the thousands upon thousands that seemingly practice it without any problems? Using this line of reasoning I should form a parallel argument and conclude that eating is inherently evil because it has a potential to be problematic, and that I should know because I had a classmate that was obese.

I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with trivial attempts to disprove something, if you’re going to prove or disprove something, make a good attempt, lest it be decimated.

 

[77stanthony77]

Just the other day my godmother Aunt was talking to me about the horoscope and then she said you know we are supposed to beleive it. OOh dear!

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Just the other day my godmother Aunt was talking to me about the horoscope and then she said you know we are supposed to beleive it. OOh dear!

I once informed a Catholic who said she gets her astrological reading done every year that the Church opposes it, and she said if the Church says it is false and evil then it must be so, but continued to do it anyways.

Which I fear is typically like a lot of the responses here, no one seems to have their own thoughts or reasoning behind it, they just subscribe to what is said blindly, and can’t seem to explain that either.

Somewhere along the line some theologians and philosophers in the Church have sat down and done some kind of discourse or deep analysis of this to come to a conclusion, this is what is of merit, not stray comments.