Astrology - why does my sign seem right?

[mikekle]

Plus have to take into consideration that there is a specific warning about avoiding this, if there was no danger, nothing to it, or it was fake, there would be no need for a warning, so it is real in that aspect, but its the origin where the problem starts.

From everything Ive read, my own sign matches the type of person I am exactly, but when you think about it, that should not be all that surprising, for a deception to be effective, it has to be pretty darn convincing/ good, if majority of people recognized it for the deception it is, well, it wouldnt be that great of a deception in the first place.

 

[Lea101]

It’s nothing more than confirmation bias.

Basically that. We like to think we are smart creatures, but honestly, it is just that.

 

[jcrichton]

Pope Leo X commissioned the Sala dei Pontefici (shown in the first photo I posted). He was somewhat into astrology. As Tsuzuki said, the Church didn’t tend to frown on it as much then. See supporting reference linked below. Martin Luther was actually way more against astrology from what I read.

books.google.com/books?id=HM-1Q59H2kwC&pg=PA143

Hi!

…yeah… I don’t subscribe to that “frown on” thing… but I do like to get to the bottom of things… so I began a quest on this issue… I’ll get back on this through better understanding of it…

…now for argument’s sake… do you know if what we understand today as astrology was the exact same understanding in the past?.. what I mean by that is, did people believe, as they do today, that we are ruled by planets, and stars, and planetary motions/accidents? …and was that the Church’s understanding and reasoning for including/using the zodiac signs?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And then Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica accepting some aspects of it, primarily that the stars might have some influence upon the instincts of a person but that this influence could be overcome by humans who chose to follow Christ. (He did not approve of its use in the “telling the future” sense. )

Hi!

…this is exactly what I mean… are you inferring that the Church Taught that astrology was good because man could search out his future or did some of her members believe that the stars could “reveal” the future?

…can you quote St. Thomas Aquinas’ take on astrology “telling the future?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sure looks like they are at the Vatican.

12 apostles, 12 months in a year and 12 astrological signs. There are 4 seasons in groups of 3 in a year and the astrology signs are divided into 4 groups of 3 (earth, water, fire and air).
Can the apostles be divided into 4 groups of 3?
Just looking for a correlation.

Astronomy and astrology were both important to many cultures through history.
And it looks like the astrological signs have decorated many Catholic churches or
cathedrals.

Hi!

…I don’t think it is so much about the importance in cultures as much as what the Church accepted… and what was understood?

…back when many claimed that blood-letting was some sort of “treat” all–I suspect that part of the reasoning came from Scriptures’ definition of the blood being the life-force (which technically it is); so “bad” blood-letting would seem to be a cure all trick (problem is that there was no real science behind it and depleting the body of blood, in many cases, would exacerbate the condition).

Since the Church did in deed incorporate zodiac signs in many of her structures, it would be beneficial to understand the reasoning behind it (not just, “good aesthetics” or cultural influence of the times).

…I know a few Catholics who see no problem with consulting “psychics” and all this zodiac mumble jumble while professing to Follow Christ… they are not clear about definition… so it follows that if they stand for nothing, they will fall for anything.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Plus have to take into consideration that there is a specific warning about avoiding this, if there was no danger, nothing to it, or it was fake, there would be no need for a warning, so it is real in that aspect, but its the origin where the problem starts.
From everything Ive read, my own sign matches the type of person I am exactly, but when you think about it, that should not be all that surprising, for a deception to be effective, it has to be pretty darn convincing/ good, if majority of people recognized it for the deception it is, well, it wouldnt be that great of a deception in the first place.

Hi, Mike!

…I cannot agree with you; it is not about the reality or lack of reality of things but what we place above God… consider the idols… when Scriptures speak against idol worship does it mean that idols are real–that they actually do exist with power and abilities?

No.

What Scriptures are warning against is man’s need to believe/belong and how easily he is lead astray into falsehood by following his desire to “control” or “own” an event… Jesus queried can anyone as hard as he might want to add a single day to his life or change the color of his hair?

…of course man tries… and some people claim that he has been able to change the color of his hair… I doubt that superficial manipulation is an actual change… but by steadfast resolve, man can claim that he has done what God deemed impossible… so who needs God?

…follow the warning about the danger?

…it is not that there’s a “real” function to astrology but that man may believe that there is and get hooked on it… as with any other idolatrous endeavor: serve the creature–reject the Creator!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Tis_Bearself]

…now for argument’s sake… do you know if what we understand today as astrology was the exact same understanding in the past?.. what I mean by that is, did people believe, as they do today, that we are ruled by planets, and stars, and planetary motions/accidents? …and was that the Church’s understanding and reasoning for including/using the zodiac signs?

I am not an expert on this topic but from what I do know, the Church has consistently objected to the idea of astrology for predicting the future, “divination” etc. The parts of astrology to which the Church at times was a bit more open consisted of some aspects that were more like what we would today classify as “astronomy” (the scientific study of the heavens, which was a newfangled thing centuries ago, and how astro phenomena influence things like weather and crops, which is again scientifically proven stuff for the most part), and some other aspects that have to do with the stars’ influence over a person’s personality and fate based on birth sign/ time etc.

However, even where the Church might have considered astrological influence on personality, the Church took the position that a person could overcome or go against this by following God and exercising free will (corrected, I think I was a little off the first time). This is what I understand Aquinas said in Summa Theologica. It is also similar to what most decent astrologers say, “The stars Impel, they do not Compel,” in other words the stars at most would impart a tendency of a person to act a certain way and the tendency is not a certainty and the person could act against it and be a different way.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Regarding the requests for Aquinas quotes, the section where he addresses astrology is Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 115, Articles 3 through 6. It’s quite long and written in such a way that it’s hard to pull a quote out without losing the context. Unfortunately the only website I can find that has the whole section up is the Fish Eaters site which I understand is banned here and additionally contains some editorial comments about astrology from whoever posted the Aquinas sections so I can’t repost. If you google you can find it I reckon.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Hi!

…I don’t think it is so much about the importance in cultures as much as what the Church accepted… and what was understood?

…back when many claimed that blood-letting was some sort of “treat” all–I suspect that part of the reasoning came from Scriptures’ definition of the blood being the life-force (which technically it is); so “bad” blood-letting would seem to be a cure all trick (problem is that there was no real science behind it and depleting the body of blood, in many cases, would exacerbate the condition).

Since the Church did in deed incorporate zodiac signs in many of her structures, it would be beneficial to understand the reasoning behind it (not just, “good aesthetics” or cultural influence of the times).

…I know a few Catholics who see no problem with consulting “psychics” and all this zodiac mumble jumble while professing to Follow Christ… they are not clear about definition… so it follows that if they stand for nothing, they will fall for anything.

Maran atha!

Angel

I definitely don’t believe in psychics or fortune tellers!!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hi, Mike!

…I cannot agree with you; it is not about the reality or lack of reality of things but what we place above God… consider the idols… when Scriptures speak against idol worship does it mean that idols are real–that they actually do exist with power and abilities?

No.

What Scriptures are warning against is man’s need to believe/belong and how easily he is lead astray into falsehood by following his desire to “control” or “own” an event… Jesus queried can anyone as hard as he might want to add a single day to his life or change the color of his hair?

…of course man tries… and some people claim that he has been able to change the color of his hair… I doubt that superficial manipulation is an actual change… but by steadfast resolve, man can claim that he has done what God deemed impossible… so who needs God?

…follow the warning about the danger?

…it is not that there’s a “real” function to astrology but that man may believe that there is and get hooked on it… as with any other idolatrous endeavor: serve the creature–reject the Creator!

Maran atha!

Angel

Do you believe in supernatural power apart from God? The demonic and such?

 

[jcrichton]

I am not an expert on this topic but from what I do know, the Church has consistently objected to the idea of astrology for predicting the future, “divination” etc. The parts of astrology to which the Church at times was a bit more open consisted of some aspects that were more like what we would today classify as “astronomy” (the scientific study of the heavens, which was a newfangled thing centuries ago, and how astro phenomena influence things like weather and crops, which is again scientifically proven stuff for the most part), and some other aspects that have to do with the stars’ influence over a person’s personality and fate based on birth sign/ time etc.

However, even where the Church might have considered astrological influence on personality, the Church took the position that a person could overcome or go against this by following God and exercising free will (corrected, I think I was a little off the first time). This is what I understand Aquinas said in Summa Theologica. It is also similar to what most decent astrologers say, “The stars Impel, they do not Compel,” in other words the stars at most would impart a tendency of a person to act a certain way and the tendency is not a certainty and the person could act against it and be a different way.

Hi!

…I understood the connect of Astronomy and the Church since from ancient times the position of the stars, etc. have been used for determining the Equinox in order to set the Easter Festival (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar); it was interesting to find out that the planetary signs known as the zodiac were so prevalent in the Church’s artistic (aesthetic) designs…

…I still disagree with modern “astrology” since we, as creatures of habits as we are, are compelled to follow and attribute anything to anything… just check out how many millions have bought into the virtual existence… some have even placed their lives and others’ at risk to read/reply to a virtual obsessive remark… the stars… the planets… have nothing to do with this… check also the thousands who engage with animals as though they were human beings… do you recall when a “pet” was a creature that supplied entertainment/companionship? …today, in some, they take up a chunk of those people’s lives… as they cater to them, sit them on the furniture and at the dinner table, take them to bed with them (remember the time when doctors taught that children should not be in bed with their parents?) and share intimate exchanges (face sucking) with them… yeah, humans are stupid–none of that has to do with the stars!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Regarding the requests for Aquinas quotes, the section where he addresses astrology is Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 115, Articles 3 through 6. It’s quite long and written in such a way that it’s hard to pull a quote out without losing the context. Unfortunately the only website I can find that has the whole section up is the Fish Eaters site which I understand is banned here and additionally contains some editorial comments about astrology from whoever posted the Aquinas sections so I can’t repost. If you google you can find it I reckon.

Hi!

…thanks anyway!

…I just thought there might be an excerpt that would demonstrate that he espoused superstition with correct Church Teaching.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I definitely don’t believe in psychics or fortune tellers!!!

Hi!

…what I find interesting is how much “faith” is put on such things… and how much money is shelled out by both Believers and non-Believers… yet, they will not have Faith in God’s Providence… and some Believers’ offering to Go always come attached to “can’t” or “must take care of these things first…”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Do you believe in supernatural power apart from God? The demonic and such?

Hi!

I believe that the devil and demonic power exist… I don’t believe that Creation was made with an umbilical cord to dictate my moods, experiences, and failures or successes.

I also believe that Creation was made complete with all the normal and super normal elements… animals that can sense danger (as we also can), animals that can predict climate changes (we may have been able to or can if we regain that); animals that, once part of a human being’s life, might be able to detect signs of decease (seizures or heart attacks or such)… there are other signs of extra sensory perception that are there (picking up on someone staring at you; a close to death experience were a loved one may come to one’s mind; some dreams that materialize with much detail; thinking about someone who may be in trouble–even though that person is the furthest thing from mind…); Jupiter’s ascension crossing the apex of Sagittarius or whatever as a sing of ‘can’t wear the color red; number 234 is the lucky number, do not go out in the rain on a Tuesday, and don’t shop for shoes on Saturday afternoon…?’ yeah, right!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Irishmom2]

Might it not be possible–and make sense–that our birthdate and the alignment of the planets are intertwined and have an effect on who we are?
*Especially *if God is in charge of our birth,

.

Oh, please do explain how it would **make sense **that God would intertwine our birthdate and the alignment of the planets to affect who we are.

I hardly think God would use that “shortcut” and lump a bunch of people’s personality traits together that way.

 

[mikekle]

Oh, please do explain how it would **make sense **that God would intertwine our birthdate and the alignment of the planets to affect who we are.

I hardly think God would use that “shortcut” and lump a bunch of people’s personality traits together that way.

Maybe God is not involved at all, sort of like people that are born with severe deformities, its just something that happens naturally in a fallen world.

 

[Irishmom2]

Maybe God is not involved at all, sort of like people that are born with severe deformities, its just something that happens naturally in a fallen world.

God’s hand is involved in creating us, no matter what.

 

[augustinegirl]

So…first it is saying the information given is untrue.
Second, that partaking is a desire for power.

But whoever wrote this is not explaining why they think this is so.

Why do they?

.

I personally do because God is the only one who knows our future, and quite frankly, I don’t want to know mine. I actually have a personal story about that, being that a family member of mine went to a psychic and was told she would marry someone whose name began with a certain letter. This influenced her later in a relationship, they married, but it was annulled. It’s very similar to a movie with Marisa Tomei about this actually haha. But if we are to trust our futures to God, why would we go around that trust?

 

[augustinegirl]

A former pastor told me this story from his days in seminary:

The prof had them sit at their regular desks, and he told them he had gotten a person to do their “charts” based on their birthdays.

He asked how many felt it was accurate, 95% of them enthusiastically said YES!

At that point, the prof told them to pass the paper to the person directly behind them.
For it was THAT other person’s horoscope profile.

Point made.
People are gullible, and those things have that “blind squirrel” mystique about them.


Occasionally interesting, but not to be pursued or believed.

I’ve heard things like this before! My thing is that…“my” sign is truly the one I can relate to most haha. Then again I’d be interested to see what would happen if I experienced that same class…

 

[augustinegirl]

It’s nothing more than confirmation bias.

Hmm…a very good point. Thank you