Astronomical evidence for God's existence

[lelinator]

But this is about evidence for God’s existence.

But based upon the evidence present in the world around me, I could more rationally argue that I am God. Theorizing the existence of anything outside of myself is pure conjecture. And theorizing the existence of one conscious being, in order to explain the existence of another conscious being, simply leads to the problem of infinite regress. It’s turtles all the way down.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But you’re not God and couldn’t prove you created anything.

You’re getting into the area of “proof,” which this isn’t gonna happen because for unbelievers, it’s impossible…

But evidence to back belief in God, is there. You can’t make the world around us disappear and say, “see, it really doesn’t exist.”

 

[lelinator]

But you’re not God and couldn’t prove you created anything.

But as you’ve been arguing all along, this isn’t about proof, it’s about evidence. And the evidence supports the idea that I am God, and that I have in fact created everything.

But evidence to back belief in God, is there.

But the evidence more rationally supports the idea that I am God. So if I’m to take the more rational line of reasoning, then I should conclude that I am God.

You can’t make the world around us disappear and say, “see, it really doesn’t exist.”

So what? It does exist. And the most reasonable conclusion is, that I am its creator.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But as you’ve been arguing all along, this isn’t about proof, it’s about evidence. And the evidence supports the idea that I am God, and that I have in fact created everything.

But you can’t provide the evidence that you created anything, which is my point.

Do the stars and the earth exist ?

Yes they do.

Where did they come from ?

For me, it was God who created it

To the atheist, they have no idea.

 

[rossum]

Allah is the name for God.

So the Muslim’s evidence is valid

Muslims see it as evidence that Jesus (Isa) was a Prophet, not the Son of God, not a member of the Trinity.

Do you accept that part of the evidence?

 

[lelinator]

But you can’t provide the evidence that you created anything, which is my point.

I have the exact same evidence that you have, and my point is that that evidence better supports the idea that I am God. You can’t proclaim that you have evidence for your interpretation of God, while at the same time arguing that I don’t, when we’re both using the exact same evidence, and that evidence better supports my position than yours.

For me, it was God who created it

To the atheist, they have no idea.

First, you have no authority to comment on what atheists believe about where reality came from, and second, while you’re free to believe whatever you choose to believe, you can’t arbitrarily conclude that your interpretation of the evidence is anymore valid than anyone else’s. And that includes the argument that I am God.

 

[niceatheist]

But as you’ve been arguing all along, this isn’t about proof, it’s about evidence. And the evidence supports the idea that I am God, and that I have in fact created everything.

But you act as if the two premises are epistemologically equal, and they are not. You even say it yourself; “For me…” That’s the subjectivity of your claim. To say “I don’t know where it comes from” is not the equivalent.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, because their evidence isn’t visible, but a matter of what they’ve been told by other Muslims.

For the Christian, faith is more than just being told about Jesus, it’s the experience of Christ as he reveals Himself to the individual, however that my happen.

That’s faith of course and faith is not proof to those who don’t have faith.

However, evidence of God’s existence is real and tangible in the material sense. The world exists, we can see it and observe it. There is evidence of a creator in the fact that it exists. The nonbeliever, can see the world, but doesn’t accept that it was created by a supreme being, but somehow just came into being, or however they think it happened.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s not the same evidence, because you are a mortal who can’t create life nor anything else. The fact that life, stars, planets etc exist, provides evidence that it had a beginning, and how that beginning came into being, is evidence that a creator made it happen.

I’m not trying to be authoritative on what atheists believe, but I do have experience in what atheists say about the existence of the world around us. I’ve had many debates with atheists in another forum. They can’t answer how the world came into being. They have no idea, but just accept that it is, without a creator behind it. At the same time however, they have no problem telling believers that they’re belief is the same as believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. They often become very nasty towards believers and mock ridicule them for their beliefs.

 

[lelinator]

It’s not the same evidence, because you are a mortal who can’t create life nor anything else.

But now you’re making assumptions not based upon the evidence. All that I can know for certain, is that I exist, and that I perceive other things to exist as well. But I have no evidence by which to conclude that they actually do exist beyond my perception of them.

So you and I begin with the same evidence, but you then make assumptions that the evidence doesn’t warrant. You cannot conclude that anything exists outside of your own mind.

The fact that life, stars, planets etc exist, provides evidence that it had a beginning, and how that beginning came into being, is evidence that a creator made it happen.

And it’s entirely possible that that creator is me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But now you’re making assumptions not based upon the evidence. All that I can know for certain, is that I exist, and that I perceive other things to exist as well. But I have no evidence by which to conclude that they actually do exist beyond my perception of them

Your existence isn’t determined by your own will and you will one day, cease to exist in your mortal body, which you didn’t create.

And it’s entirely possible that that creator is me.

Then show me what you’ve created as evidence.

 

[rossum]

It’s not the same evidence, because you are a mortal who can’t create life nor anything else.

Obviously false. Mortals created the Eiffel Tower. Mortals created the United States of America. Two mortals of opposite sexes (or just one in some species) can create life.

You are mortal and you created the post i am replying to.

You are making a large number of unstated assumptions here. Without those implicit assumptions your statement is false.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Obviously false. Mortals created the Eiffel Tower.

Only by using materials from created earth have mortals created the Eiffel Tower or any other material object.

You can not create something without material to begin with

You are mortal and you created the post i am replying to.

By using my mind, which I did not create. In fact, scientist have no idea how the mind exists. The assume it’s created by the brain, which again is not created by the self or another human.

 

[lelinator]

Your existence isn’t determined by your own will

Why do you assume that my existence needs to be willed?

you will one day, cease to exist

As far as I can possibly know, I have always existed, and always will exist. There’s no evidence to the contrary.

your mortal body, which you didn’t create.

How do you know that I didn’t create it?

Then show me what you’ve created as evidence.

Everything.

 

[Sundiver]

Fr. Spitzer talks about the universe as being so well balanced at the moment of it’s creation that it had to be directed within micro seconds for it to support life. There are several variables that had to occur in a precise sequence and scientists are beginning to admit that the universe was engineered by an extremely high intelligence. It wasn’t like making pizza like atheists science would like to make us believe.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why do you assume that my existence needs to be willed?

I didn’t, you did by saying you exist. If you don’t desire to exist, you need to see a professional for counseling.

As far as I can possibly know, I have always existed, and always will exist. There’s no evidence to the contrary.

Visit a funeral home and you’ll see people who are no longer alive. Dead in body is the only thing YOU’ll see.

If you believe you always have and always will exist, then explain how you know this and how that happens ? what is your evidence ?

How do you know that I didn’t create it?

Because no human can create themselves or anyone or anything else.You especially have no power to create life. If you do, remember this conversation when and if you’re ever on your death bed.

 

[lelinator]

I didn’t, you did by saying you exist.

But even you believe that consciousness doesn’t need a cause, willed or otherwise. You believe that God, a conscious being, didn’t need a cause. So why shouldn’t I assume that the same premise applies to my consciousness? It doesn’t need a cause.

Visit a funeral home and you’ll see people who are no longer alive.

Obviously, the fact that other people, who may well have been created by me, can die, doesn’t imply that I their creator can die. You need to be careful about making assumptions. As far as I can ever know, I cannot die. Nor has there ever been a time when I didn’t exist.

If you believe you always have and always will exist, then explain how you know this and how that happens ?

I explain it the same way that you explain God. There’s no such thing as before or after I existed. My mind creates the concept of “before”, and my mind creates the concept of “after”. My mind simply exists, and it creates everything else, even the illusion of before and after.

Because no human can create themselves or anyone or anything else.

You’re assuming that I’m human, and not simply consciousness creating the illusion that it’s human. But one thing’s for sure, you and I are not alike.

You especially have no power to create life.

Now that bit may actually be true, because as far as I can tell, you’re not actually alive.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But even you believe that consciousness doesn’t need a cause, willed or otherwise

I believe I said that Dr Eben Alexander said that the brain doesn’t cause consciousness.

Either way, you can not create consciousness nor more than you can create a brain.

Obviously, the fact that other people, who may well have been created by me, can die, doesn’t imply that I their creator can die. You need to be careful about making assumptions. As far as I can ever know, I cannot die. Nor has there ever been a time when I didn’t exist.

You’re becoming ridiculous. No one believes that you create human life or even plant life.

You’ve taken the conversation off the rails. No point in going on.

 

[lelinator]

You’ve taken the conversation off the rails. No point in going on.

This conversation actually isn’t off the rails. This thread is about the evidence for the existence of God. I submit that you have offered as evidence for God, only assumptions, and that the actual evidence is simply too ambiguous to broker any definitive conclusion.

The evidence could just as reasonably be interpreted so as to conclude that I myself am God.

Thus, when it comes to the subject of God, any supposed evidence exists only within each individual’s own mind.

 

[niceatheist]

Not so. Just as there are diverse life forms on earth, there may be similar life forms on earth-like planets. The fine-tuning argument applies specifically to earth. The search for any sign of alien life, for example, on Mars continues. Why refer to Aquinas or Kant?

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Then we’re talking about two different “fine tunings”. The Anthropic Principle speaks to the physical makeup of the universe, that it can produce and support living organisms and similar complex structures. The argument over Earth is derivative, and usually refers to features like Earth’s orbit, or a large satellite that may have prevented the degree of heavy bombardments that are still evident on the other terrestrial bodies in the Solar System.