At a crossroads with Catholicism

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I heard this on Catholic Answers live, the radio program, the other day, but I forgot who the guest was. He said that while we consider the opposite of belief to be unbelief, in the Hebrew text of sacred scripture, the opposite of belief is disobedience. Unfortunately, I was in my car and got a cell phone call before I could here specific passages he was referencing; however, if someone else heard the program or could enlighten us, that would be great.

Another saying I’ve heard from a very wise priest is that the opposite of faith is not doubt but rather certainty. If one has certainty than faith is not required. Doubt is part of faith. For example, even Peter had doubts which is why he denied Christ.
 
I don’t know if you were Evangelical. Even if you were not, here is a website by a convert. It is very simple, straightforward and clear.

davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm

And David’s testimony is very very powerful. He did not have an easy time coming home. One day he was on the verge of joining some cult and he chanced upon a beautiful church in Montreal. I think it was St Joseph’s oratory.

He fell on his face and begged Jesus to show him what was the true way. And he was converted then and there. It wasn’t over though. He lost his voice, couldn’t work, ended up on the streets.

The priest who started Companions of the Cross saw him and instantly knew that he needed to be proteced. So he took him in. David is now a powerful voice in defence of the unborn. God bless him.
 
The Church that wrote the Bible is different, in certain rules, rituals, and requirements for salvation, than the Church of today.

Believe me, if Paul and Luke and the boys were still around and telling me that all of these changes are perfectly correct and divinely inspired by God, I wouldn’t be having this problem.
It is sometimes hard to answer a question that is less than specific. Now that you have mentioned rules, rituals, and requirements for salvation, perhaps you could be more specific of what you feel that has changed, and which you have problems with.

For example, rituals; at times we have ideas of what was as opposed to what is now, and our view is very narrow, or uninformed.

Care to be more specific?
 
I heard this on Catholic Answers live, the radio program, the other day, but I forgot who the guest was. He said that while we consider the opposite of belief to be unbelief, in the Hebrew text of sacred scripture, the opposite of belief is disobedience.
Well, I know what Christ said about it, which matches exactly what you heard:

John 3:36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
 
While the magisterium teachings may not be perfectly aligned with your beliefs, there is something to having a group of theologians create or uphold teachings over milennia.

Do some research on your own as to where other denominations are with interpretation and scriptural authority. You may want to start with the Anglicans. Just google terms like Anglican, Gene Robinson, AAC, Windsor Report and see some natural consequences of having no centralized teaching authority.

Peace,
Steve
 
The Church that wrote the Bible is different, in certain rules, rituals, and requirements for salvation, than the Church of today.

Believe me, if Paul and Luke and the boys were still around and telling me that all of these changes are perfectly correct and divinely inspired by God, I wouldn’t be having this problem.
Paul and Luke and the boys *are *“still around” because the same Slpirit who guided them guides their successors. That’s what Apostolic Succession is about. The world changes around us, and our means of preaching the Gospel must address the world around us. That’s why certain things change and grow. Nothing central has changed.

When you see differences between the Church that wrote the Bible and the Church today, you see differences that touch upon expressions of the faith, not its core: Christ has died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again.
 
For those who can’t see Catholism in the scripture…

scripturecatholic.com/

Remember it is salvation history written by and for the Catholic Church.

1 Timothy 3:15

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, **which is the church **of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

St. Paul is talking about a church, singular.

**Matthew 16:18 **
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Jesus is talking about a church, singular.

**Matthew 18:17 **
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

This was way before the Protestant Reformation, so what church would you take it to?
 
Oh just one more:

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
 
I started attending a Catholic Church every Sunday (or almost all of them). I started reading the Bible and educating myself - kind of a “Catholicism for Dummies” home study course if you will. I felt emotions and feelings for God that I hadn’t felt before.

Mr. August… Have you attended RCIA?? I could never have completely understood what was going on if I hadn’t attended. I am 43 years old and I just became Catholic at Easter… RCIA was great and I am planning to go again starting next week!!
 
Don’t forget, as Catholics we have the sacrament of reconciliation. Which reconciles us with God and His church.
 
I can totally relate to what you’re going through. My own “burning bush” was in the form of CDs from the Bible Christian Society.

Listen in this order:
  • One Church
  • Apostolic Authority
  • Which Came First, the Church or the Bible?
and then any others that strike your fancy. 👍
 
I was stuck with Sola Scriptura some time ago. I got one plain answer…

How is that Catholics know how the story mentioned in **Judas’es epistle 1:9 ** goes? Judas ( not the traitor, the other Judas) knew something “from the Bible which wasn’t written in the Bible”- how devil wanted to take away the body of Moses, but angel Micahel defended the body. This story is nowhere mentioned in the Bible- how did Judas knew it? How this story goes? Why did devil want the body of Moses? What were angel and evil one arguing about?

Tha answer: Apostolic Tradition. A living proof that Apostoles knew historical stories apart from written Sacred Scripture.

If Apostoles had these historical stories, who can say one of these stories isn’t the one about Mary’s sinless nature and Assumption?
 
I didn’t take my belief in God seriously until a few years ago when I really needed Him. There were issues I had which put me on my knees in prayer, and I don’t even want to think about where I would be had He not answered those prayers.

I started attending a Catholic Church every Sunday (or almost all of them). I started reading the Bible and educating myself - kind of a “Catholicism for Dummies” home study course if you will. I felt emotions and feelings for God that I hadn’t felt before.

As I went through this journey something happened along the way. There were many things I learned about Catholic beliefs that just didn’t sit right with me. And when I referred to the Bible there was just more confusion - especially when learning about obeying the church even when you don’t agree with their rules.

My question is have any of you ever been in this situation in your faith journey, and how did you go from this point to end up in a place where you are now ? In 40 years I’ve very slowly gone from being baptized a Roman Catholic to now being one who loves God and Jesus but is very skeptical of the Churches’ interpretations of the Bible. I’m just not 100% willing and able to submit to teachings of fallible human beings - to summarize, I’m stuck in Sola Scriptura mode.

I’m not looking for passages on binding and loosing … I’ve already been lectured on that … I’m just curious what some of you did to get to the point where you are 100% unconditionally submissive and accepting of everything the Church has taught you.

Thank you for your help. My image of what God really is has gotten very confusing as a result of this.
The truth is any Catholic who denies ever having differences with the Catholic Church teaching is probably lying.

Take, for instance, the Church’s position on contraception, that we must abstain from using it. Conservative estimates are that 90% of Catholics use contraception.

Subrosa
 
I’m just not 100% willing and able to submit to teachings of fallible human beings - to summarize, I’m stuck in Sola Scriptura mode.
But in submitting to the Church, we’re not submitting to “fallible human beings”–the dogmas of the Church come down to us from the Apostles, and are guarded by the Holy Spirit (“the gates of hell will not prevail against Her”). Relying on “sola Scriptura” means relying on your own interpretations, guaranteed to be true by no-one…
 
It is sometimes hard to answer a question that is less than specific. Now that you have mentioned rules, rituals, and requirements for salvation, perhaps you could be more specific of what you feel that has changed, and which you have problems with.

For example, rituals; at times we have ideas of what was as opposed to what is now, and our view is very narrow, or uninformed.

Care to be more specific?
Well there’s a long list of things, but for starters…

Lent
Clerical celibacy
Christmas - date of the birth of Christ
Missing mass mortal sin
 
You’ve all mentioned many references and books - thanks.

Apparently I have a lot of reading to do !
 
Well there’s a long list of things, but for starters…

Lent
Clerical celibacy
Christmas - date of the birth of Christ
Missing mass mortal sin
Just to address one of the above, the discipline of celibacy stems from the nature of the priesthood itself, namely that a priest offers sacrifice (THE Sacrifice of the Mass). As we see already practiced in Old Testament times, priests rotated terms of service in the Temple and were required to practice sexual fasting during the time of their service. (We see this at the beginning of St. Luke’s gospel when he presents us with the account of Zachary and Elizabeth and the conception of John the Baptist).) So it is quite consistent with Scripture.

Following this example, but most especially the example of Christ, the High Priest of the New Covenant, when married men were chosen to be deacons, priests, or bishops in the early Church they were required to be continent or be disbarred from the clergy, following the Apostolic example, whom themselves were following the example of Christ in giving all to the furtherance of His Kingdom.

There were simple reasons for this: the Twelve were living celibate when they left their families to follow Our Lord and so were living with and like Him. Moreover, the Apostolic Offices of the Twelve was the highest office of the Church, which the Episcopal offices comes closest to but not equal to. The continence required of bishops followed the Twelve’s vocation to live totally for the Kingdom, as Our Lord says in Matthew 19 that some are eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.

At first this did not mean separation from one’s wife, but only separation from conjugal sex; this normally would not be a problem, since priests and bishops, and even deacons were chosen from the elders, i.e., those whose children were already raised.

The Church has always allowed couples who had no responsibilities towards offspring or others to mutually separate and enter religious life. In the first period of the Church when spirituality was higher than later (first 300 years) this was not so unusual and the Church following the practice of the Apostles as well as their example chose priests and deacons from among these spiritually mature elders, who though not separating from their wives who needed their financial and social support before such things as monasteries, lived like brothers and sisters with regard to sex. A great example of this in the West is St. Nicholas of Flue: after a prolific marriage, he and his wife spent the last 20 years in continence and he was blessed with prophecy and even living only on the Eucharist (15th century, I believe).

The whole history of this discipline of the Church is well-documented in Fr. Christian Cochini’s Apostolic Origins of Clerical Celibacy.
 
Christ fasted, then suffered and died for us. Could we not at least fast? See Isaiah 58 for the kind of fasting that is pleasing to God. It’s short, just two pages, but chock full of helpful stuff, not just about fasting, but about living a Christian life.

Going to mass on Sunday is part of keeping the sabbath holy. God commanded that.

As to December 25, nobody really knows when Jesus was born. His birth is celebrated on that date, which is really unimportant. What is important is that we celebrate it.

Your journey may be easier if you consider Church teachings as instructions on how to obey the two great commandments. When I put everything in that context, quite a few troublesome things fell into place.

Good luck and may God bless and guide you on your spiritual journey.
 
I’d just like to add about the date for Christmas that the Church is not saying that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. We don’t know the exact date of Christ’s birth since the Gospel writers, the Apostles and the Church Fathers never saw fit to tell us that bit of info, if they even knew it.

What the Church did by choosing a date to celebrate Christ’s birth was set a date for Mass to be celebrated in honor of Christ’s birth. The other dates for related Mass celebrations, such as the Annunciation, were therefore dated according to the Mass in celebration of the Birth of Christ. It’s just a liturgical date, not a pronouncement as to what date Christ was born. I hope that helps you. 🙂
 
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