At odds with my priest over doing chant mass chant mass...

[Faithwon]

First time poster but long time reader . I too belong to a parish where we ( a small number of us) have gone to our Pastor to ask that the Mass of the Latin Rite be done once a month at our church, in the Chapel . We are waiting as our Pastor said he will speak with our Archbishop in March when our Archbishop is at our Parish for conformation. With that said and in reference to chant at Mass…it never happens at my parish, I wish it would.What we usually hear at Mass is very loud singing , very loud piano and organ…and on the third Sunday, drums,bongos,and hymms that at times I cannot identify. We go to another church,drive about an hour and attend the Tridentine Mass. Yesterday, Ash Wednesday we attended the 9 AM Mass–at my parish…Ash Wednesday, Mass started with “music” , drums,bongos,piano and the congregation stood up and clapped in time to the music, waved their arms in the air. I know this is all with Pastor’s approval. I, we have prayed and are praying that we will be able to have the Latin Rite Mass at our Parish with chant at least once a month. Gregorian chant, chant in english is part of our liturgy, it leads us to reverence of our most Holy Sacred Mass of our Lord,Jesus Christ.

 

[mia2klm]

I’m a church organist and cantor, and although not professionally trained , I have had 30 years’ experience as a liturgist working with priests. I would agree the chant masses are nice, but the liturgy resources I have consulted have always stressed that the music should support the mass and allow the celebrant to lead. However, priests are not all the same, and can be a challenge for the musicians. I agree with another post here that all too often the music seems like a performance. It even seems that our parish has a number of people who flock to those entertainment masses, especially for Christmas.

Our parish has been using the Mass of Renewal, at the order of our pastor, for several months. I find this difficult, and so does the majority of the parish. After all these months. I still see a lack of participation. Last week I asked if I could start using the more familiar Mass of Creation, and Father was fine with it. I always feel much more comfortable when I have permission to make changes like this. Aside from my own musical and liturgical knowledge, I understand the priest has a vantage point which I cannot have.

It can be very challenging to work as a church musician! We must swallow our pride regularly, and always keep in mind we do this for God. I sympathize with you, and can only say we should offer up our trials to the Lord, and remember that we are humble servants.

 

[lax16]

My husband and I do the music for one of the masses at our parish. I am a classically trained soprano, he’s a classically trained pianist, we both have degrees in music, though not any formal liturgical training because there simply isn’t any available in our area. He’s a cradle Catholic, I’m a convert. Of the three masses, we tend to be the most traditional and “old school”, even though we’re the youngest musicians. Anyways…

We change mass parts a couple times a year, according to season, as do many other churches in our area. In the past, when we were new to doing the music, we tried to do the Latin chant mass… it was not recieved well. This year, a few years later, we decided to do the chant mass in English for Lent, which is in our missal, with the idea of “getting back to basics”, thinking that eventually we could bring in the Latin once the parish more comfortable with the chant. Even easier during Lent because there’s no Gloria. We did not teach it before mass last night (for Ash Wednesday) because we thought at least some people would be familiar with it, and it’s easy and slow enough that the rest could catch on. Well… hardly anyone sang. Not that we usually get a huge amount of participation anyways. Last night was not our usual crowd, and there were a lot of visitors, which may have had something to do with it. After the mass, our priest came to talk to us. He was upset that people weren’t participating, and pretty much pinned it on us and our music selection (this isn’t a new thing; if they aren’t singing he usually blames the musicians, a favorite reason being “it’s too high”, when everything we do is out of the hymnal…). He kept saying “you have to do stuff they know, if you don’t, they won’t sing. If you keep picking things they don’t know, they’ll get used to not singing and just give up.” I tried to explain that we do try very hard to pick songs they are familiar with, and that we feel the chant mass is something every Catholic should know, that the Pope is trying to bring back the traditional music… he continued to not be very supportive and repeat himself. At one point I talked over him when he was repeating the same points, completely not meaning to be rude, just a bad habit of interrupting, and he snapped at me… I felt completely awful. I just felt so attacked and not supported at all. I don’t want to disrespect my priest, of course not. I would understand his reaction if we were doing something new and crazy and contemporary or whatever, but this is the basic of basics, not even in Latin but in English… I don’t understand why he’s not supportive. True, the chant mass hasn’t been done in this church in who knows how long, but isn’t that all the better reason to try to bring it back? He finally agreed to let us try again on Sunday provided we spend time teaching it before mass. I’m just so frustrated. I’m ashamed that I disprespected my priest, but I still feel that we’re right… I don’t even feel like facing him at this point, and wonding if we should just give in and go back to doing Mass of Creation.

I’d appreciate others’ perspectives on this.

I don’t even know what the chant mass is!

I have been to many different masses at many different churches and have to say I am unfamiliar with it. I am considered to be “old school” Catholic by most people who know me so I just wanted to let you know that there are many of us who have not had the exposure to this type of music at mass.

I think it is absolutely beautiful (I looked it up on youtube) and would love to hear it at church, but I am often stuck with strumming guitars or the off-key choir.

Anyway, give your priest a big hug and tell him you would be happy to introduce this music slowly and that you understand he wants participation from the congregation. Don’t let this get in the way of what God is calling you to do.

And, above all, obedience!

 

[mia2klm]

Just an additional comment about the Chant Mass: Last year, when we went back to the old words for mass, our pastor announced that the entire diocese would be using the Mass of Wisdom. We spent months preparing for that, and when we attended a musicians workshop at the diocesan level, they were training us to use the Chant Mass. Nobody else was using the Mass of Wisdom. And so it goes! The lines of communication can be fuzzy.

I find it difficult to use chants in our parish. People just don’t participate, and since I do not work with a choir, I rely heavily on unity with the priest and all the people at Mass.

 

[triumphguy]

I understand you perfectly. You have to remember that your priest has probably been brain washed to oppose Gregorian Chant or polyphohy from the get go and he probably has a lot of pressure from the Bishop to get the people to " take part. " What he may not realize or refuses to admit is that most of the music in the typical hymnals is just awful.

You may not remember but the Bishops had a horrible time getting the people to switch from Latin chant and polyphony when the big changes came through in the 70’s. Very odd that they corresponded with Roe vs Wade time line? English was litteraly shoved down our throats, so was the " new " mass. It was a mess for a long, long time.

Just do what your priest wants, only God can change him - an maybe not even God. Remember he is under lots of stress these days.

Have you considered swithching to the Latin Rite? Not available everywhere but that may be a better fit. Linus

Total, utter and complete conjecture.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

The priest is the one in charge of the mass. And it is true that you can’t make sudden changes. Even people who might support it will be thrown off and not sure how to respond (or sing if it’s something they don’t know). something new at a mass where you KNOW there are going to be people there who are unfamiliar with the mass (ie, people who come 2-3 times a year) is never a good idea. Save it for when you have your normal congregation.

 

[Nessie86]

I just feel like an idiot now… we try so hard, and sometimes it’s great, and sometimes, like yesterday, it’s so disappointing and I feel like I shouldn’t even be there.

I come from a Lutheran background, so I was steeped in some really wonderful old hymns, many of which are in our hymnal… and many of which our church has, never, ever heard, because the music was so contemporary and folksy for a while (nothing against those former musicians, but it was a completely different style). And at my old Lutheran church, EVERYBODY sang, loudly, even if they didn’t know the song they’d stumble through as well as possible. So coming into the Catholic church was a huge shock. I joined the choir before I was even in RCIA because I got looks for singing too loudly in the pews… and I don’t really sing that loud. The church I was confirmed at did the Latin chant mass for Lent and Advent and it was awesome… so pretty much all my “liturgical training” came from that church, and from learning on fly at this parish where I now live (since I’ve been married). The whole concept of a cantor was completely foreign to me, and I got thrown into it because I can sing well. That’s a problem in itself; I’ve actually had people tell me they don’t want to sing because they just want to listen to me… what on earth do I do about that??

This parish is such a far cry from the one I was confirmed at in terms of reverence and richness in the liturgy, and we’ve been trying to bring some of that in. There is no organization between the musicians themselves, and with the liturgical staff. There’s a different musician at each mass, and we barely speak to one another unless we need a sub. The dear lady that runs the RCIA program often gives us things last minute, and we do our best.

I spend time each week going over the readings and trying to select songs that the congregation knows that fit with the readings. Unfortunately, there are at least 25 old favorites that are not in the new hymnal that our priest ordered without talking to any of the musicians. So that in itself has been a struggle. We did ask him several weeks in advance about doing the chant mass, and he was fine with it. The first negative comment was last night, and somewhat out of the blue. The other songs had gone so well, and by the Lamb of God people had been joining in…

I honestly had no idea Ash Wednesday was such a big mass for visitors… this was the first year we’d done it and I’d never noticed, because I don’t know the parishioners at the other masses, so I didn’t know who were strangers.

I do take music way personally, because I have had an enormous amount of heartbreak as a singer, to the point where I almost quit entirely. The fact that I’m doing this at all is a big deal, and I put my heart into it. I don’t take criticism well at all, and it’s less a pride thing than a lack of self-confidence. Maybe I’m just not a good fit for this parish, because I didn’t grow up here (very small town) and I’m bringing in too many new ideas. It’s been hard enough trying to keep this up while juggling a baby and now toddler, and maybe the next pregnancy will be a good reason to step down. I wish I knew better what to do.

Sorry for the rant…

 

[opus101]

Nessie, can you keep us up to date with what ensues in your parish? I can honestly say that the parish that I’m attending slowly but surely caught on, and it has totally transformed the atmosphere at Mass to one of much more reverence, and has contributed to a greater understanding of the true meaning of the Mass…and this is not a “traditionalist” parish either, just a normal small town parish. The key is to do it in incrememnts, be patient, and PERSEVERE (as long as the priest says it’s okay).

 

[mia2klm]

What you are feeling has been felt by nearly all church musicians. Don’t let yourself become discouraged. Your conversation with your priest could be the beginning of a new line of communication which will make your work more effective.

May God bless you for sharing such a rare talent. I have often prayed for such a beautiful voice, and have had to be thankful for what I have.

 

[englishredrose]

Have a private one to one chat with your priest about what you have said here and personal things anyway. You will both hopefully benefit from it. He will hopefully take what you say on board. That dont mean you’ll always get what you want but you may get to spiritually deepen your faith at the same time.

Music is very personal to me too. Some it has a lot of meaning and others couldn’t care less at all about it. But so long as am singing - rather than what specifically I am singing… I will go along with things because am not so hung up on rubics like some people are. But for those who are, we need to think about them

I hope you get to have that private one to one with him and allow him to guide you a little
We often see things different next day.

 

[lax16]

I just feel like an idiot now… we try so hard, and sometimes it’s great, and sometimes, like yesterday, it’s so disappointing and I feel like I shouldn’t even be there.

I come from a Lutheran background, so I was steeped in some really wonderful old hymns, many of which are in our hymnal… and many of which our church has, never, ever heard, because the music was so contemporary and folksy for a while (nothing against those former musicians, but it was a completely different style). And at my old Lutheran church, EVERYBODY sang, loudly, even if they didn’t know the song they’d stumble through as well as possible. So coming into the Catholic church was a huge shock. I joined the choir before I was even in RCIA because I got looks for singing too loudly in the pews… and I don’t really sing that loud. The church I was confirmed at did the Latin chant mass for Lent and Advent and it was awesome… so pretty much all my “liturgical training” came from that church, and from learning on fly at this parish where I now live (since I’ve been married). The whole concept of a cantor was completely foreign to me, and I got thrown into it because I can sing well. That’s a problem in itself; I’ve actually had people tell me they don’t want to sing because they just want to listen to me… what on earth do I do about that??

This parish is such a far cry from the one I was confirmed at in terms of reverence and richness in the liturgy, and we’ve been trying to bring some of that in. There is no organization between the musicians themselves, and with the liturgical staff. There’s a different musician at each mass, and we barely speak to one another unless we need a sub. The dear lady that runs the RCIA program often gives us things last minute, and we do our best.

I spend time each week going over the readings and trying to select songs that the congregation knows that fit with the readings. Unfortunately, there are at least 25 old favorites that are not in the new hymnal that our priest ordered without talking to any of the musicians. So that in itself has been a struggle. We did ask him several weeks in advance about doing the chant mass, and he was fine with it. The first negative comment was last night, and somewhat out of the blue. The other songs had gone so well, and by the Lamb of God people had been joining in…

I honestly had no idea Ash Wednesday was such a big mass for visitors… this was the first year we’d done it and I’d never noticed, because I don’t know the parishioners at the other masses, so I didn’t know who were strangers.

I do take music way personally, because I have had an enormous amount of heartbreak as a singer, to the point where I almost quit entirely. The fact that I’m doing this at all is a big deal, and I put my heart into it. I don’t take criticism well at all, and it’s less a pride thing than a lack of self-confidence. Maybe I’m just not a good fit for this parish, because I didn’t grow up here (very small town) and I’m bringing in too many new ideas. It’s been hard enough trying to keep this up while juggling a baby and now toddler, and maybe the next pregnancy will be a good reason to step down. I wish I knew better what to do.

Sorry for the rant…

You are a blessing to your parish. Change takes time.

We moved to Utah from a very conservative situation and let me tell you…it is has been quite an adjustment!

I have felt the way you do except I teach religious ed. I have learned to slow it down and meet each person where they are at - it is a very valuable lesson. I also felt that the evil one was trying to keep me from teaching and was getting into my head.

Well, I couldn’t let that happen!

So, with a few bumps and bruises, I am becoming a *seasoned *teacher!

 

[robwar]

I just feel like an idiot now… we try so hard, and sometimes it’s great, and sometimes, like yesterday, it’s so disappointing and I feel like I shouldn’t even be there.

I come from a Lutheran background, so I was steeped in some really wonderful old hymns, many of which are in our hymnal… and many of which our church has, never, ever heard, because the music was so contemporary and folksy for a while (nothing against those former musicians, but it was a completely different style). And at my old Lutheran church, EVERYBODY sang, loudly, even if they didn’t know the song they’d stumble through as well as possible. So coming into the Catholic church was a huge shock. I joined the choir before I was even in RCIA because I got looks for singing too loudly in the pews… and I don’t really sing that loud. The church I was confirmed at did the Latin chant mass for Lent and Advent and it was awesome… so pretty much all my “liturgical training” came from that church, and from learning on fly at this parish where I now live (since I’ve been married). The whole concept of a cantor was completely foreign to me, and I got thrown into it because I can sing well. That’s a problem in itself; I’ve actually had people tell me they don’t want to sing because they just want to listen to me… what on earth do I do about that??

This parish is such a far cry from the one I was confirmed at in terms of reverence and richness in the liturgy, and we’ve been trying to bring some of that in. There is no organization between the musicians themselves, and with the liturgical staff. There’s a different musician at each mass, and we barely speak to one another unless we need a sub. The dear lady that runs the RCIA program often gives us things last minute, and we do our best.

I spend time each week going over the readings and trying to select songs that the congregation knows that fit with the readings. Unfortunately, there are at least 25 old favorites that are not in the new hymnal that our priest ordered without talking to any of the musicians. So that in itself has been a struggle. We did ask him several weeks in advance about doing the chant mass, and he was fine with it. The first negative comment was last night, and somewhat out of the blue. The other songs had gone so well, and by the Lamb of God people had been joining in…

I honestly had no idea Ash Wednesday was such a big mass for visitors… this was the first year we’d done it and I’d never noticed, because I don’t know the parishioners at the other masses, so I didn’t know who were strangers.

I do take music way personally, because I have had an enormous amount of heartbreak as a singer, to the point where I almost quit entirely. The fact that I’m doing this at all is a big deal, and I put my heart into it. I don’t take criticism well at all, and it’s less a pride thing than a lack of self-confidence. Maybe I’m just not a good fit for this parish, because I didn’t grow up here (very small town) and I’m bringing in too many new ideas. It’s been hard enough trying to keep this up while juggling a baby and now toddler, and maybe the next pregnancy will be a good reason to step down. I wish I knew better what to do.

Sorry for the rant…

You seem like you have a lot of talent and your desires for more reverence at Mass and leading the music seem very noble. It seems like you will have to work more with the priest and just use the Ash Wed as a learning curve. Sometimes, bringing in change is hard for the parish to adjust to and you may have to take it more slower than you want. Don’t get too defensive and take the priest’s correction too personally. To minister to people in anything, you have to go to their level first and win over them before you make some of the changing that you desire.

 

[Joannm]

The whole concept of a cantor was completely foreign to me, and I got thrown into it because I can sing well. That’s a problem in itself; I’ve actually had people tell me they don’t want to sing because they just want to listen to me… what on earth do I do about that??

…

Please don’t take what I am about to say too personally. This can be the crux of the problem. A cantor, a leader of song, leads the people. One of the axioms that I was taught years ago in liturgical music workshops was “step away from the mike and let the people sing.” When the song leader has a beautiful voice and it is very pronounced at Mass, you are correct, people just want to listen. Also they feel that their voice is horrible compared to the singer’s and they just can’t “compete” so to speak. We had that situation in one of our parishes. We had two cantors trained in opera. No one sang at their masses. Leading song is an art, and believe it or not, you don’t have to have an exceptionally good voice to lead. You do have to be engaging. Are you a member of the National Association of Pastoral Musicians? If not I suggest you join and attend one of their cantor workshops or their convention in July in Washington DC. You will learn a lot.

With regard to chant. It is meant to sound as if no one is leading. Listen to CDs of chant. You do not hear a leader of song, no one voice in dominant. Of course when first teaching it you have to help them along but then step back from the mike as they begin to catch on. If you keep being dominant they are not going to sing. They need to hear the others around them and join in as one voice. We do some chant at our masses and the people participate although they don’t seem to like the Gloria in chant, they say it seems to slow and somber and think the Gloria needs to sound more joyous. We used the Gloria Simplex at our Church, which I like. We are switching it for Easter though to something more festive.

I hope this helps and I wish you the best.

 

[Sarabande]

Aww… Nessie, please don’t feel like an idiot. I am sure your parish is very blessed to have musicians like you and your husband to help with the music liturgy.

I completely understand where you are coming from. As a professional classical singer, as well as a mother of a toddler and a newborn, I know what you are going through and feeling. Although I am a cradle Catholic, I know and understand how much of a culture shock it can be, musically-speaking, especially when you do come from denominations which sing their hearts out even when people don’t know the music. As someone who does sing for Protestant congregations every once in a while, it was a culture shock for me (in the opposite direction). They sing no matter what.

How you describe the music organisation at your parish is not uncommon. Perhaps this can be an opening to get all of the musicians and liturgists together with the priest and see if some sort of protocol and organisation can be created, allowing the priest to be in charge and to delegate, if needed.

In regards to your problem with people not singing because they want to hear you sing, one thing I learned is to not sing too close to the mic. You use it just enough to help lend support to the congregation especially is the organ or other instruments aren’t doing it or if the congregation doesn’t know a new melody/song. When they know it, step back from the mic. Whenever you are singing in the upper part of the middle register of the voice, step really far away from the mic so it doesn’t seem like you are trying to overpower everyone else’s voice. Every once in a while I’ll hear individual voices out in the congregation. Some of them sound like they’ve had some training. I welcome that and I back away from the mic even more. I actually have an older person who is taking lessons from me every once in a while just so he can sing the hymns better at mass and I love hearing him sing out in the congregation. I also don’t sing with a full operatic voice - especially when using a mic. Most hymns don’t call for that kind of singing, anyway, as you know.

There is definitely an art to singing as a cantor. It’s almost like learning the art of singing early music, compared to singing grand opera, etc. And because cantors are not supposed to be a soloist, with the exception of singing the psalm or gospel verse acclamation, we have to learn how to not be too overwhelming during the hymns. At one of the parishes where I work, all of the cantors are professionally trained classical singers. The voices are beautiful. We have one cantor who isn’t a Catholic and although she is very good, she doesn’t understand that she can’t sing with a full operatic voice… that you can’t use your opera voice to sing chant, that we actually aren’t soloists, etc. The congregation sings really well at that parish despite good singers as cantors. At one mass we even have people in the pews who will sing harmony to everything in the mass. It’s wonderful to hear… and unusual.

Another thing to keep in mind is that all parish congregations are different. What works for one congregation or mass won’t work for another. So sometimes you do have to “experiment” to figure out what works better for a congregation to sing.

Don’t get discouraged. You are doing really well. It’s all a learning process.

 

[Denise1957]

I’ve actually had people tell me they don’t want to sing because they just want to listen to me… what on earth do I do about that??

IMO, it’s fine if they want to listen to you instead of sing themselves. It may help to lift their hearts and mind to God when they listen to a beautiful voice which is singing about God. From what I understand of the old days (I’m a convert, too) there was less verbal participation, such a singing and responses from the congregation. But listening and having one’s heart lifted up to God by a beautiful voice is participation, too, but it’s an inner participation, rather than an outward and obvious one. For instance, at the Mass that I normally attend, the people don’t sing the Kyrie Eleison at the High Mass. The choir sings it. I love it because listening to the beautiful voices (men and women) singing of God helps me to feel closer to Him somehow. Hope this makes sense!

 

[agapewolf]

I’m a church organist and cantor, and although not professionally trained , I have had 30 years’ experience as a liturgist working with priests. I would agree the chant masses are nice, but the liturgy resources I have consulted have always stressed that the music should support the mass and allow the celebrant to lead. However, priests are not all the same, and can be a challenge for the musicians. I agree with another post here that all too often the music seems like a performance. It even seems that our parish has a number of people who flock to those entertainment masses, especially for Christmas.

Our parish has been using the Mass of Renewal, at the order of our pastor, for several months. I find this difficult, and so does the majority of the parish. After all these months. I still see a lack of participation. Last week I asked if I could start using the more familiar Mass of Creation, and Father was fine with it. I always feel much more comfortable when I have permission to make changes like this. Aside from my own musical and liturgical knowledge, I understand the priest has a vantage point which I cannot have.

It can be very challenging to work as a church musician! We must swallow our pride regularly, and always keep in mind we do this for God. I sympathize with you, and can only say we should offer up our trials to the Lord, and remember that we are humble servants.

Mass of renewal by Kaufmann? HOw odd they find it difficult. Objectively it is one of the catchier mass settings. My parish sings is robustly.

 

[agapewolf]

My parish sings everything I give them. Old hymns? yup. Jesuit music? yep. Haas? Yep. Praise and worship? a big yep. They sing loudly. Anything. … except chant.

I put the standard sanctus chant music in the front of the books-- so there is easy access. I taught them this before mass for the first 3 Sundays of Lent for FOUR YEARS in a row.

So, we just sang our offertory song-- and then-- crickets. Every time. From a congregation that WANTS to sing— they were trying-- they opened the books.

Were not getting it. The pastor then nixed it. He gave us 4 years. SO now, I’m trying for the 2nd year in a row to chant it in English. Still the quietest of anything they sing.

 

[Nessie86]

I totally get the backing away from the mic suggestion… I hate singing in a mic anyways and used to try to do this… until I got complaints that people couldn’t hear me. Ugh. I always say, I’m not there to give a concert.

I also understand the folks who just want to listen and have an “inner participation”, but I don’t think my priest does, and we get blamed for it. He wants people to sing, period. But at the 8am mass, it’s really really hard to get people into it. My priest and I agreed I should start announcing the number of each song to kind of remind them they’re welcome to sing, since our song board is tiny and not visible to some of the church. I don’t know how much that will help, but we’ll try.

I talked with my husband a bunch about it yesterday, and he still wants to try the chant mass, even though I feel like sticking my head in the sand. He figures, the Kyrie and Lamb of God are call-response sort of, the Amen is two notes, so that just leaves the Holy, Holy, Holy to really learn. Teaching is just really hard for me, I get nervous and ramble and have to look at all the blank stares and feel very judged… I don’t feel like I’m that great at it. But I’ll try. I’m also going to send my priest a site that has MP3’s of all the parts so he can become more familiar with them, since apparently he doesn’t know the chant mass either (is that weird?).

Would I love to go to a cantor workshop! I wish there were some on the west coast, DC is so not going to happen I’d go get a master’s in liturgical music if my local Catholic universities had such a thing…

Thank you to everyone for your responses, it really helps hearing different perspectives on the matter.

 

[Denise1957]

Nessie, it sounds like a great idea to send your priest an MP3 site for the parts of the chant so that he can become familiar with it.

You probably already know this, so I apologize if it sounds bossy, but instead of using a mic, perhaps you can project your voice more through the your upper palate and nasal passages to be louder, but so not so loud as what a mic would produce. You may recall that the singers of old, before there were microphones, did this, in order to project their voice above that of an orchestra. It takes a bit of practice, though. But maybe you’ve tried this already.

 

[pnewton]

Nessie, you can take your story and transplant it in my parish. We switched from MOC to the chant you did in English on Ash Wednesday and if fell somewhat flat. I had covered it before and their were a few people at Ash Wednesday Mass that go every week. Anyway, I am awaiting my discussion with my priest. The only advantage I have over you is I asked him twice before hand what he wanted for Lent. He never got back with me.