At odds with my priest over doing chant mass chant mass...

[Jimmygill88]

Isn’t it appalling that Catholics of whatever age can’t sing/say the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater and Agnus Dei. It’s part of our cultural heritage. I was taught at school. And Latin is such a handy language to have been taught. It simplifies learning other European languages and really improves and makes sense of English vocabulary. It’s a pity that the priest is prepared to accept the undereducation of the congregation. He should be a leader and educator. AND I’m sure that the same thing wouldn’t happen in continental Europe. If you can’t join in ask someone to teach you. I personally am very proud of the beacon of art and education that the Catholic Church is. I don’t think dumbing down is the answer

 

[CatholicGeek1]

My husband and I do the music for one of the masses at our parish. I am a classically trained soprano, he’s a classically trained pianist, we both have degrees in music, though not any formal liturgical training because there simply isn’t any available in our area. He’s a cradle Catholic, I’m a convert. Of the three masses, we tend to be the most traditional and “old school”, even though we’re the youngest musicians. Anyways…

We change mass parts a couple times a year, according to season, as do many other churches in our area. In the past, when we were new to doing the music, we tried to do the Latin chant mass… it was not recieved well. This year, a few years later, we decided to do the chant mass in English for Lent, which is in our missal, with the idea of “getting back to basics”, thinking that eventually we could bring in the Latin once the parish more comfortable with the chant. Even easier during Lent because there’s no Gloria. We did not teach it before mass last night (for Ash Wednesday) because we thought at least some people would be familiar with it, and it’s easy and slow enough that the rest could catch on. Well… hardly anyone sang. Not that we usually get a huge amount of participation anyways. Last night was not our usual crowd, and there were a lot of visitors, which may have had something to do with it. After the mass, our priest came to talk to us. He was upset that people weren’t participating, and pretty much pinned it on us and our music selection (this isn’t a new thing; if they aren’t singing he usually blames the musicians, a favorite reason being “it’s too high”, when everything we do is out of the hymnal…). He kept saying “you have to do stuff they know, if you don’t, they won’t sing. If you keep picking things they don’t know, they’ll get used to not singing and just give up.” I tried to explain that we do try very hard to pick songs they are familiar with, and that we feel the chant mass is something every Catholic should know, that the Pope is trying to bring back the traditional music… he continued to not be very supportive and repeat himself. At one point I talked over him when he was repeating the same points, completely not meaning to be rude, just a bad habit of interrupting, and he snapped at me… I felt completely awful. I just felt so attacked and not supported at all. I don’t want to disrespect my priest, of course not. I would understand his reaction if we were doing something new and crazy and contemporary or whatever, but this is the basic of basics, not even in Latin but in English… I don’t understand why he’s not supportive. True, the chant mass hasn’t been done in this church in who knows how long, but isn’t that all the better reason to try to bring it back? He finally agreed to let us try again on Sunday provided we spend time teaching it before mass. I’m just so frustrated. I’m ashamed that I disprespected my priest, but I still feel that we’re right… I don’t even feel like facing him at this point, and wonding if we should just give in and go back to doing Mass of Creation.

I’d appreciate others’ perspectives on this.

My opinion is that it is his parish to run. As long as he is not doing something that is against the laws or norms of the church, he can make the pastoral decisions that he believes are in the best interest of the parishiners. This is his decision and I believe that you should abide by it.

If you want to change his mind, plan out in advance what you would like to do and discuss the issue with him when there is ample time for everyone to discuss it calmly. Arguing will get you no where fast. But, also keep in mind, that in the end to decision is his.

 

[Sarabande]

Nessie, it sounds like a great idea to send your priest an MP3 site for the parts of the chant so that he can become familiar with it.

You probably already know this, so I apologize if it sounds bossy, but instead of using a mic, perhaps you can project your voice more through the your upper palate and nasal passages to be louder, but so not so loud as what a mic would produce. You may recall that the singers of old, before there were microphones, did this, in order to project their voice above that of an orchestra. It takes a bit of practice, though. But maybe you’ve tried this already.

It’s a weird thing. Many people are so used to hearing a miked voice that they will actually want you to sing with a mic rather than without. Nessie is classically trained, so that type of singing requires you to sing without a mic. It’s a bad word amongst classically trained singers because no one wants to be known as someone who can’t be heard in a concert hall. Lol! It actually took me a while to learn how to sing with a mic because I’m used to singing without one over orchestras and such… so it’s not just the “singers of old”. I’m in my 30s so I hope I’m not old yet. Haha!

Many of the older churches have wonderful acoustics so you really don’t need a mic and that is probably because they didn’t have electronic devices for amplification. Newer buildings aren’t so good, so often times people are forced to use the mic even if they don’t want to.

 

[pnewton]

Isn’t it appalling that Catholics of whatever age can’t sing/say the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater and Agnus Dei.

That’s what gets me about my situation. We say these thing (well, not the Creed) in daily Mass in Latin and sing them on special services like Holy Thursday. Being bi-lingual it is a good choice for these large Masses.

 

[Sarabande]

Isn’t it appalling that Catholics of whatever age can’t sing/say the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater and Agnus Dei. It’s part of our cultural heritage. I was taught at school. And Latin is such a handy language to have been taught. It simplifies learning other European languages and really improves and makes sense of English vocabulary. It’s a pity that the priest is prepared to accept the undereducation of the congregation. He should be a leader and educator. AND I’m sure that the same thing wouldn’t happen in continental Europe. If you can’t join in ask someone to teach you. I personally am very proud of the beacon of art and education that the Catholic Church is. I don’t think dumbing down is the answer

I agree with this. I learned all of the Latin prayers and responses back in college when I joined a church choir which did a Latin OF. One of the advantages of knowing these responses and prayers (recited and sung) was that when I travelled anywhere, even if the rest of mass is in the vernacular, at least I could vocally participate in singing these parts of the mass. And, as you mentioned, it was helpful for me in learning my languages. Not that I’m completely fluent in the four other languages I had to study for what I do, but it really does help in making sense of them.

I’ve never been a proponent of dumbing down, either. When I was teaching kids and running a children’s choir, I was determined to teach the choir the simple Latin chants. It took about two years to have them all down completely and by memory, but they knew them all. We went through them once a week at the choir rehearsals and they learned it all by rote. Most were not taking music lessons. That said, I do think that each parish will be different with their level of wanting to learn something that “new” and how they learn. Some may take years because it has become such a foreign thing to many people. Patience is key, but if you are under pressure to have the congregation singing robustly and if they aren’t getting it right away, you will be under pressure to put it down and leave it there.

I’m wondering if starting off with a new mass parts composition which mimics chant would help? Last year one of the parishes I work for began using the Mass of St. Agnes by Andrew Mills. It’s in English and in chant-style. The OP’s priest might be open to this. They sing that very well with organ accompaniment and I think that helped them transition to learning at least the first chant most parishes start with when trying to do some Latin chant… the Agnus Dei. It’s repetitive which makes it more simple. This was the parish that only knew and did MoC for years and are resistant to change and LOVE to sing. Within the 3 years the new director has been there, they have finally started learning and knowing new mass parts.

canticanova.com/catalog/products/g_mass_st_agnes.htm

 

[Denise1957]

It’s a weird thing. Many people are so used to hearing a miked voice that they will actually want you to sing with a mic rather than without. Nessie is classically trained, so that type of singing requires you to sing without a mic. It’s a bad word amongst classically trained singers because no one wants to be known as someone who can’t be heard in a concert hall. Lol! It actually took me a while to learn how to sing with a mic because I’m used to singing without one over orchestras and such… so it’s not just the “singers of old”. I’m in my 30s so I hope I’m not old yet. Haha!

Many of the older churches have wonderful acoustics so you really don’t need a mic and that is probably because they didn’t have electronic devices for amplification. Newer buildings aren’t so good, so often times people are forced to use the mic even if they don’t want to.

Great info, thanks,

 

[Nessie86]

I talked to my priest a ittle more, and he definitely doesn’t want me to turn my mic down, he says people will sing even less. Possibly true. Anyways, following orders on that one. I am classically trained, but I have a lighter soprano voice, so I don’t think it’s really overpowering. I’ve had to work hard to get more volume.

We’re not doing the chant mass in it’s entirety; just the Kyrie in Greek, and then the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Amen, and Angus Dei in English. Everything else is spoken at our parish. If that seems too much, I’ll cut it down to just the Kyrie and Angus Dei. I probably should have done that in the first place and just didn’t think of it…

I definitely need to work on communication with my priest. He’s hard for me to talk to, and a lot of us have had experiences with his not so great people skills. He upsets folks on a regular basis, which is unfortunate. He’s definitely not the kind of priest I can go hug and make up… in fact I’ve never seen anyone hug him…

 

[paperwight66]

Ermmmm… you do know it’s ‘Agnus Dei’ and not ‘Angus’, don’t you?

 

[pnewton]

Ermmmm… you do know it’s ‘Agnus Dei’ and not ‘Angus’, don’t you?

Cow of God?

If this was not a typo, then I have one more thing in common with OP. I made that mistake for over a year when becoming Catholic.

 

[Nessie86]

Lol, that’s what happens when you’re trying to type a post and feed a toddler at the same time…

 

[Sarabande]

Lol, that’s what happens when you’re trying to type a post and feed a toddler at the same time…

LOL!!! I’m in your boat. I tend to do most of my typing with one hand and as quickly as possible if I’m multitasking with the kiddies.

 

[Sarabande]

I talked to my priest a ittle more, and he definitely doesn’t want me to turn my mic down, he says people will sing even less. Possibly true. Anyways, following orders on that one. I am classically trained, but I have a lighter soprano voice, so I don’t think it’s really overpowering. I’ve had to work hard to get more volume.

We’re not doing the chant mass in it’s entirety; just the Kyrie in Greek, and then the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Amen, and Angus Dei in English. Everything else is spoken at our parish. If that seems too much, I’ll cut it down to just the Kyrie and Angus Dei. I probably should have done that in the first place and just didn’t think of it…

I definitely need to work on communication with my priest. He’s hard for me to talk to, and a lot of us have had experiences with his not so great people skills. He upsets folks on a regular basis, which is unfortunate. He’s definitely not the kind of priest I can go hug and make up… in fact I’ve never seen anyone hug him…

Your priest probably knows the congregation better than we do, so listen to him, and it’s smart to do what the boss wants. Like I said before, people are very used to miked voices nowadays, even if the unmiked large voice carries beautifully in an acoustically perfect church. How is the organist or other instrumentalists? Do they support the congregation well? Sometimes, when you have that and the congregation doesn’t feel “naked” when they sing, they won’t need you to stand too close to the mic. Otherwise, they might feel more comfortable with you overpowering just enough so that they don’t feel like they are the only ones singing and standing out - which is one of the reasons why some don’t sing.

I definitely would try just the Kyrie and Agnus Dei first. They are usually the easiest for people to pick up.

 

[pnewton]

I definitely would try just the Kyrie and Agnus Dei first. They are usually the easiest for people to pick up.

Something else to consider is hitting him up with a plan that is slower and easier to implement, along with the advantages. If he disapproves, I would ask if he had any suggestions for improvement, or if he just wanted to shut things down. We now have a Latin Mass every Friday and use Latin in our bi-lingual Masses. I started by just adding every Latin thing we had during bi-lingual Masses. Then after a trip to Rome, he decided that we should expand this. I found Jubilate Dei and we launched on what I consider a ten year plan.

 

[RoseMary131]

My husband and I do the music for one of the masses at our parish. I am a classically trained …, he’s a classically trained…, degrees in music, though not any formal liturgical training …

I tried to explain that we do try very hard to pick songs they are familiar with, and that we feel the chant mass is something every Catholic should know, that the Pope is trying to bring back the traditional music… he continued to not be very supportive and repeat himself. At one point I talked over him when he was repeating the same points, completely not meaning to be rude, just a bad habit of interrupting, and he snapped at me… I felt completely awful. I just felt so attacked and not supported at all. I don’t want to disrespect my priest, of course not.

I don’t understand why he’s not supportive. I’m …frustrated. I’m ashamed that I disprespected my priest, but I still feel that we’re right… I don’t even feel like facing him

Nessie, I want to thank you and your husband for all you do for music at your parish. Please don’t feel you are at odds with your priest. You probably feel like you are at odds, but realize you are both wanting to offer God music as you worship at Mass.

You are both wanting the parish to join in song. Feeling you are at odds, must bring a dark cloud over your heart.

I, too, find myself speaking over someone out of a bad habit and family background, not out of a disrespect and try to avoid doing so. I’m sorry he snapped at you.

Face Father with a smile. Begin anew.

I do take music way personally, …enormous amount of heartbreak as a singer, … The fact that I’m doing this at all is a big deal, and I put my heart into it. I don’t take criticism well at all, and it’s less a pride thing than a lack of self-confidence.

Maybe I’m just not a good fit for this parish, … I didn’t grow up here … and I’m bringing in too many new ideas. …hard enough trying to keep this up while juggling a baby and now toddler, and maybe the next pregnancy will be a good reason to step down.

I don’t know if this is a time to step down, it might be a time to re-evaluate with yourself, your husband, and priest, your role with the music ministry.

A lot of us have trouble with criticism, often as you mention, a lack of self-confidence. Ask God for the gift to hear the criticism, take what you need to improve, and let the rest go.

Don’t worry about being a good fit for the parish or what your back ground in faith is or the music you grew up singing in the Lutheran Church and how loud they sang.

Take today, this parish, this priest and begin anew. This is where God has placed you today and these parishioners and this priest are who you are worshiping with today.

Do you, your husband, and child spend time with parishioners other than Mass? If not, make it a point to take time with the Ladies Guild, parish dinners and work days, etc. Let the parishioners see you as their friend. Learn about their families, volunteer beside them. It may make them ready to sing with their friend Nessie at Mass.

There is no organization between the musicians …the liturgical staff. … a different musician at each mass,… barely speak to one another. The dear lady that runs the RCIA program often gives us things last minute, and we do our best.

Maybe you and your husband can suggest to Father that there be some sort of organization, some unity, some guidelines about “last minute” requests. Don’t expect it to happen quickly or everyone to even be on board.

My priest and I agreed I should start announcing the number of each song to kind of remind them they’re welcome to sing, since our song board is tiny and not visible to some of the church. I don’t know how much that will help, but we’ll try.

Our cantor always announces the song number. We do not have a board. The number is announced very slowly with time to find the hymn. “Please join us in singing our Communion Hymn, Number 234, Two, Three, Four.” The cantor sings with arm extended upward, unless the cantor is to sing alone.

Teaching is just really hard for me, I get nervous and ramble and have to look at all the blank stares and feel very judged… I don’t feel like I’m that great at it.

New Mass parts with the changing of the Mass were “taught” before Mass began each week. When our cantor “teaches”… there is no “talking” or explaining from the cantor… just singing by the cantor, music sheets/hymnals provided for the people, and the people practicing the song. Its not a music class, but a “follow what I sing”. You may feel they are judging you, but they may not be. Don’t let what appears to you as a “blank stare and judgment” keep you from singing with them before Mass.

I definitely need to work on communication with my priest. He’s hard for me to talk to, and …his not so great people skills. He upsets folks on a regular basis, . He’s definitely not the kind of priest I can go hug and make up.

Pray for your priest. Also before you meet with him and before Mass, ask God to help you to not be offended by father’s lack of warmth. Like all of us, priests come with all personalities. Don’t let his lack of warmth keep you from communicating with him. He may suffer from problems himself.

Search out other cantors and music directors, or youth choir music directors. Find out their “key” to getting the parish to sing, their “key” to working with the priest. Find them on the internet, drive to a Mass Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon in another parish or town.

Keep your priest informed about your plans. Maybe as you keep him informed, he will decide he wants to be informed by the other musicians. Maybe gradually, there will be unity and communications between everyone.

Add St. Cecilia to your help list.

St. Cecilia - Pray for us.

 

[Sarabande]

Something else to consider is hitting him up with a plan that is slower and easier to implement, along with the advantages. If he disapproves, I would ask if he had any suggestions for improvement, or if he just wanted to shut things down. We now have a Latin Mass every Friday and use Latin in our bi-lingual Masses. I started by just adding every Latin thing we had during bi-lingual Masses. Then after a trip to Rome, he decided that we should expand this. I found Jubilate Dei and we launched on what I consider a ten year plan.

 

[27lw]

Bringing this back up from a while ago…
Nessie, you are to be commended for trying to do what the Church wishes (I know there is a directive that Catholics should know the basic chants in Latin).
The key is to take it slow, and realize that your pastor may not support you, you may be better off at a parish where the pastor is more in tune with a “Reform of the Reform” liturgical style.
You should check out the following websites, if you haven’t already:
chantcafe.org
forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussions (these folks are very knowledgeable and on the same page as you are. It’s probably good advice to read and learn before you post).
I’m curious, what’s happened in the last 6 months or so?

 

[Nessie86]

Thanks, I’ll have to check those out!

What we ended up doing during Lent was teaching the congregation some of the chant mass parts in English, I believe the Holy Holy Holy, Memorial Acclamation, Amen and Lamb of God. We did the Kyrie in Greek because they are at least familiar with that. I think we used one of our “normal” mass settings for the Gloria because it was too “long” and our priest didn’t want to do too much. Definitely baby steps… our thinking was that if we can work up to them learning the “tune” of chant mass parts, we can eventually work in the Latin. But, so far this has ONLY been during Lent. We introduced the Missa Emmanuel during Advent last year, which is chant-like. And we’ve been working for several years on playing more traditional hymns at our mass, and not so much of the folksy and contemporary music that has been mostly all they have had for decades. So, we’ll just keep working on it, slowly.

 

[englishredrose]

hope you don’t totally delete the folksy style music and have a mix thru out the year and have some of what some of the congregation may like. That is where our music choir leader is very good as is aware of what people like at and within the hymnbook that has a variety of kind of folksy style, a lot of Graham Kendric style and a lot of traditional hymns. Music is handled well in our parish. I just fear if you totally delete that one style you may be met with opposition in some form. Or people sadly quietly leave because Music is a big part of Mass for some and if their style has been altogether removed then why would they stay? Best to have a mix rather than what you prefer to have as it seems to read

 

[27lw]

Well, Englishredrose, Nessie did say she is doing the music for only one Mass. I bet there is plenty of folksy music to go around!
But what about the young people, don’t they deserve a rap or hip-hop Mass, or country / pop music Mass? Why only cater to the over-60 crowd with warmed-over “folk” music?

 

[Nessie86]

hope you don’t totally delete the folksy style music and have a mix thru out the year and have some of what some of the congregation may like. That is where our music choir leader is very good as is aware of what people like at and within the hymnbook that has a variety of kind of folksy style, a lot of Graham Kendric style and a lot of traditional hymns. Music is handled well in our parish. I just fear if you totally delete that one style you may be met with opposition in some form. Or people sadly quietly leave because Music is a big part of Mass for some and if their style has been altogether removed then why would they stay? Best to have a mix rather than what you prefer to have as it seems to read

Oh by no means are we doing away with it! I just meant that our congregation was familiar with so few traditional hymns that we’ve been working more of them in. We still do the old favorites though, it is definitely a mix. We are not the only musicians at our church either; our mass (8am) tends to be a bit more traditional (but honestly, it’s really only one or two traditional hymns per week). The other masses are different.