At the risk of opening a can of worms

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MaxRosen said:
And while we’re about it, what is the basis for belief in purgatory?
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Hello MaxRosen,

I hope the flooding has subsided in your country.

MaxRosen, permit me to recommend to you The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is best to consult the CCC when you have a question about catholic doctrines and dogmas. There is an excellent website available that allows you to search the catechism online. If you have, for instance, a question about ‘purgatory’ one of the first things you want to do is read up what the CCC has to say about it - this way you will get it straight from the source.

Search the CCC online here:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

CCC 1031:

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

You will find other helpful citations on a search result of ‘purgatory’ on that website.
What is cited without reference on the second paragraph of CCC 1031 is the following:

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

We gather from this that sins will be forgiven after death, yet, we know that there will be some who will go to Hell after death and there is no way out of Hell. Who are those whose sins will be forgiven after death? Could they be in Heaven and in the presence of God with their sins? No. Hence, there is a place for those who have sins (venial) between Heaven and Hell and that place is Purgatory. Purgatory is temporary and once the souls there have been purified they go to Heaven.

In other words, purgatory is not a bad place to be. Once, you pay your dues you are headed to Heaven. Not so with Hell.

…
 
MaxRosen said:
Some people – mainly Muslims and fundamentalist Protestants – assure me that as an unbeliever in their faith I am destined for hell.

But where in the Bible does it say anything of the sort? What biblical basis is there for believing that a non-Christian is destined for hell?
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I have read the Bible and keep reading it and I have not read any basis for such a claim. To the contrary, as I noted on another thread you have read the Letter of Paul to the Romans, there Paul pretty much establishes the contrary. Correct? Some may argue that Mathew 15 and Mark 7 may pose a problem but, they would also be taking the text out of context.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
  1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
A websites that you may find useful and may want to make a favorite along with the other above and a couple more I want to give you is, the Holy See website. There you can read the whole of Vatican II, many encyclicals, the CCC, the Bible, etc… but, you cannot search the CCC nor the Bible on the Vatican website. You can search the Bible in Biblegateway.

Search Bible:
biblegateway.com/keyword/

Vatican website:
vatican.va/phome_en.htm

The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 (?) is searchable online and it is an excellent source of information.

Take a look at the article on purgatory:
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Peace,

Abba

P.s. I want to give my personal response to a question you asked on another thread regarding the Truth of the New Testament with the hope that it may help you to understand. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7443716&postcount=58 When I get a little time.
 
Mojoforyeshua said:
This is the Catholic view of the Jews concerning their salvation:
Catechism of the Catholic Church 839-840
Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

As far as I am concerned, the Jews are in because God does not abandon His chosen people because God is more faithful than any husband on Earth. God has a special covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Follow God’s law in Faith and Love and I think that God will have mercy on you as He has mercy on those who call on the name of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Shalom V’Kul Tov.
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The Law of Moses and God’s Covenant with Abraham do not open the Pearly Gates of Heaven to modern Jews in order for a practicing Jew (or any non Catholic for that matter) to enter Heaven they would have to be invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church. The Church teaching on this matter is covered in the Catechism of the Council of Trent. I believe the quote goes along the lines of No pagan, Jew, heretic, apostate or schismatic may enter the Kingdom of God without first becoming Catholic. Having said this only God may judge who is truely invincibly ignorant.
 
Jim_Dandy said:
Hey, um, uh, I doubt that Protestants believe in purgatory and call it ‘glorification.’ I was a Protestant for many years, and rejected purgatory as an unbiblical Catholic invention. Which Protestants are you referring to? Please post your evidence.

Purification of the soul after death came from Judaism. Orthodox Jews still pray for the souls of their dead for eleven months.

This is the teaching of the Church regarding salvation of non-Christians:

Catechism of the Catholic Church # 847 “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Emphasis on the “may.” It’s difficult to achieve salvation outside the Catholic Church, without the sacraments. God gave them to us to help us get to heaven.

Jim Dandy
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My husband is Muslim and I discussed purgatory with him briefly – he said muslims also believe that people go to a place a purification before entering heaven. I have only heard evangelical protestants say its either heaven or hell – that’s it.
 
promethius said:
the article certainly gets at what I’m meaning more eloquently. But sacramental grace is not bound by physical form (hence sacrament of Baptism offered by desire), and as such, God may offer such sacramental grace as is required for salvation (and thus initiation into the Church) in a way we don’t understand…

And I think we really are just saying tomato and tomato in two different ways (that saying doesn’t work as well when typed…😊)
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Well, it’s 2 different approaches:

a) Catholic Church as the official organization and

b) Catholic Church as the saving Communion with God granted through the Death and Resurrection

I’m pleased to see that the latter is the conceptual basis of the tradition going back to the early Church. It’s a mystical and holistic understanding - and these readings are reassuring - and inspiring! 👍 :crossrc:
 
Thank you all and especially edwest2 for your link. I now have a much clearer understanding of the Catholic concept of “salvation”.

Just a note. The word “Gehennom” is usually translated as “hell” but it’s actually more like the Catholic concept of purgatory - ie a place where souls are cleansed. Religious Jews believe very few souls are condemned to eternal damnation.
 
Max

What biblical basis is there for believing that a non-Christian is destined for hell?

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
 
slywakka250 said:
Then why teach people about God, opening up the risk for damnation, if they can’t be damned without that knowledge???

When people say this, it makes me wish I had never heard of Catholicism, seems. I would be better off, if that meant it was impossible for me to choose hell.
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Of course one can sin mortally without ever hearing of Catholicism. If he does, he needs to repent and be baptized. If he sins mortally after baptism, then he needs reconciliation. That’s why everyone needs to hear about Catholicism.
 
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