At what point do we not consider certain Protestant churches as legitimate?

[ltwin]

Right, sounds correct. However there is only One Holy Apostolic Church which is the CC/EO. Of the two the CC claims the Chair of Peter which currently still resides in Rome.

However this doesn’t negate the validity of the EO. And there is much to be learned from their stability. No-one anywhere else has claim to Apostolic Succession. There lies the falacy.

The Protestant churchs which follow the first Seven Ecumenical Councils are of great interest to us in that they are close. However many Protestant Churchs only follow the first Four Ecumenical councils. This requires much more effort to correct.

Peace

Peace

How do Catholics feel about lets say the Episcopal Church? It’s Anglican and thus closer to Catholicism in many ways than the Baptists are, but (at least the national leadership) is decidedly revisionist in its understanding of Christianity, such as supporting a woman’s right to choose or homosexuality. Does the CC still attempt to dialogue with traditions that are historically closer to Catholicism than other Protestants but are increasingly accommodating themselves to secular values?

 

[StevenFrancis]

I guess one could look at it as the church was one until it split and so in that way the Roman Catholic Church is a branch as much as Eastern Orthodoxy. In an organizational sense this would seem to be fairly accurate.

From a theological sense all branches are claiming to be the true church so the branching graphic would not make sense there as they consider themselves to be true and their heritage to be corrupted. The branch idea does not really make sense as the assumption is your root is diseased. Each church would consider itself a new shoot off of the original church.

The Eastern and Latin Church indeed seem to be one. I believe it was Pope John Paul II who referred to the Eastern Church and the Roman Church as the two lungs of the same body. But isn’'t that the Eastern Catholics, (i.e. Coptic, Byzantine, etc.?). Either way, I expect that the Greek Church, the Russian Church etc. will one day all acknowledge the full deposit of faith to be in Rome, and come to accept the primacy of the Apostle St. Peter, as well as all the councils. If the EO and the Roman Church are collectively the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then it will be so. I don’t feel anywhere nearly qualified to take on the issues of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic Orthodoxy. They both have fully maintained apostolic succession, and maintain a valid episcopacy and priesthood who may validly confect the Holy Eucharist, and stand in persona Christi. I’ll save the split of the Catholic Church for a time of my further education, and for other threads. But protestantism still doesn’t hold up in any way that I am able to understand with the one exception that we share a deep and mutual understanding, (for the most part), of who Jesus is, what He did/does, and why He does/did it. This is no small thing, and I am filled with deep love of my protestant brothers and sisters. But all the same, they are clearly, and unquestionably branches, sects, and denominations by their very definition, and the Catholic Church (Eastern and Latin), clearly is not any those things, having been established by Jesus Christ our Lord in a direct and historical way. This may very well apply to the Eastern Orthodox as well, though I am admitting to not possessing enough knowledge even to speak intelligently on that matter. It is my next topic of deep study in Church history. Martin Luther, John Calvin, et. al. fully broke with the Church with a completely different understanding of some of the most fundamental ideas of the application of Christianity on the life of man. Dropping the oh, so important concepts of magisterium, infalibility, tradition beside scripture, understanding of the episcopacy, the sacraments and more. Each of these groups then in turn STILL breaks up further and further based on internal group politics, and many are even flexible and comport to the cultural ups, downs and mores in which they find themselves, so that they, in many cases, no longer even adhere to the principles and ideas of their own founders, who were not Jesus or the apostles to begin with. The mega church down the block from me bears very little, if any, resemblance to Church established on St. Peter, or even on the amended versions of church promoted by Martin Luther and John Calvin. It seems more of a meeting of people to hear a motivational speaker who is friendly too many of the teachings of Jesus Christ, as each member may interpret Him to be.

Go into most any Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, (and probably Eastern Orthodox) Church, and you will find them conducting Christian worship, and sacramental life pretty much they way it was conducted in the 1st century. (see the Didache, or read any writings of the early Church fathers).

Having said all that, the comments here have helped me to understand a little bit, what it is the protestants believe about their own groups. I couldn’t even get my mind around THAT before.

As to the main question of this thread, I think the answer is most likely, never. But here again, it goes back to what does one MEAN by “legitimate”.

Thanks to all for your explanations,

May God bless,

Steven

 

[StevenFrancis]

How do Catholics feel about lets say the Episcopal Church? It’s Anglican and thus closer to Catholicism in many ways than the Baptists are, but (at least the national leadership) is decidedly revisionist in its understanding of Christianity, such as supporting a woman’s right to choose or homosexuality. Does the CC still attempt to dialogue with traditions that are historically closer to Catholicism than other Protestants but are increasingly accommodating themselves to secular values?

There are a good number of Anglicans with a Catholic/Orthodox view, who do not wish to be a part anymore of a broken succession, and a large theological dissent. They are becoming Catholic at a pretty good clip, and there is now an ordinariate, in fact to serve those Anglicans of an orthodox bent, who still want an Anglican liturgy. Since the Anglican church at the macro level has broken with orthodoxy, in spite of the many orthodox Anglicans within her ranks, the Anglican church itself would still, or course, be looked at as a denomination or sect of Christianity, and legitimate only to the extent that they keep their succession and comportment with the Creeds of the Catholic Church.

It’s fascinating watching the Holy Spirit working in such a tangible and visible way within the Anglican communities, separating many from their ranks, (including whole parishes), and bringing them into the Catholic body. It’s a beautiful thing, and it’s amazing to be actually witnessing this happening.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[Scoobyshme]

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination,” since the word “denomination” means “from the name of,” implying that it came from some other organization. It did not. It was the first (and only) Christian Church, by over 1000 years, and founded directly by Jesus Christ. St. Paul refers to the Church as the Body of Christ. How many bodies can Jesus have? One.

 

[Calgar]

Christ founded one church and that one church is the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

I’m curious, who says that? I mean, besides you.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think people also have to go back to their own selves to search for greater truth about the ecclesia, Church.

We are all sinners. Christ had to use human clay to begin His church. You will never find perfection of any member of the Catholic Church, including the saints. They had their personal issues as well. But their expertise did shine out as extraordinary, which made them saints.

We are all sinners. We have had our own share of sinful ecclesiastiistics…but that doesn’t mean the Church itself is bad or wrong.

Where there were bad ecclesiastics–bishops or popes, pastors…there also in the very same places, extraordinary but ordinary…Catholics faithful to Jesus and living out His will in their daily life and not letting scandal destroy their faith. They won out because they persevered in their focus on Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

The other point is that the Catholic Church is self-reforming.

Where the Protestants need to go through their reformation is to see how the Catholic Church corrected itself, and that we don’t have the same parameters now as then.

So the Protestants need to go through their reformation of forgiving us, and seeing how we amended, and to acknowledge that and —come home so we can be one in the Lord as He always prayed…

 

[Izdaari]

The other point is that the Catholic Church is self-reforming.

Where the Protestants need to go through their reformation is to see how the Catholic Church corrected itself, and that we don’t have the same parameters now as then.

So the Protestants need to go through their reformation of forgiving us, and seeing how we amended, and to acknowledge that and —come home so we can be one in the Lord as He always prayed…

It does reform itself – it eventually adopted many of the reforms Luther advocated – but at an agonizingly slow pace, first giving Luther the boot, and only taking his criticisms to heart over the next several hundred years – and there is still much to be done in the way of reform before I would be willing to “come home” to it. I bear no grudge at all against the CC, so forgiving it is not an issue for me. But some of the required reforms would be things I don’t expect in the next 1000 years or so. I could be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[Scoobyshme]

It does reform itself – it eventually adopted many of the reforms Luther advocated – but at an agonizingly slow pace, first giving Luther the boot, and only taking his criticisms to heart over the next several hundred years – and there is still much to be done in the way of reform before I would be willing to “come home” to it. I bear no grudge at all against the CC, so forgiving it is not an issue for me. But some of the required reforms would be things I don’t expect in the next 1000 years or so. I could be pleasantly surprised, but I’m not holding my breath.

Keep in mind that the reforms of the Church were not reforms in doctrine, but in matters of discipline. The Church has never, nor will ever, change the doctrines that it teaches, because it has received those doctrines from Jesus Christ, Himself. And the Church, unlike Protestantism, does not claim the right to correct Jesus Christ.

 

[Calgar]

And the Church, unlike Protestantism, does not claim the right to correct Jesus Christ.

So protestants disagree with Christ and seek to correct Him?

That’s a pretty bold statement. Please tell me how all the Christians that aren’t members of the Catholic Church are correcting Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m curious, who says that? I mean, besides you.

History itself.

 

[Roy5]

There are six or seven main streams of Protestantism. Anglicanism. Lutheranism, Reformed (Presbyterian, UCC, etc), Wesleyanism (Methodist), Pentecostalism, Baptists, Anabaptists (Mennonites, Amish), and Quakers, Unitarians etc (depending upon how broad one defines Protestantism). There are many denominations within some of these traditions. In this town, for example, we have Baptist churches representing at least four Baptist strains.

  As far as I'm concerned, all sincere Protestant groups are legitimate and deserve respect. Many of them have cooperated for years through the World and National Councils of Churches, or the National Association of Evangelicals. Many Eastern Orthodox groups are in these councils, also. 

  There are, here and there, local churches that may pretend to be Protestant but may be scams. Some of those TV preachers who want you to plant your seed (send them money) and promise that God will make you rich, healthy or whatever - not legitimate. There always are a few preachers, like some priests, who are living double lives. This doesn't go by denomination so much, though they are more likely to infect independent churches that are founded by and around some pastor and who have no higher authority to oversee them and punish those who blemish or disgrace their calling.

  It's sad when clergy, Catholic or Protestant, betray their vows. But we all are human beings and as such we all fall short. Still, such men (and women) should be exposed for whatever coruption they may embrace. 

  Generally speaking, Protestant churches and clergy are as legitimate and as worthy of respect as those of any other faith.

 

[Simeon_Hovey]

At what point do we not consider certain Protestant churches as legitimate?

This is interesting syntax, at what point wouldn’t it be better to restate this so that it says what it really means?

What standard is used to [for those who want to] judge a Protestant Church?

Just where does it say that God judges churches as well as individuals? Also I seem to recall Jesus saying that judgment is in the hands of God alone.

Isn’t this thread a different way of rehashing Matthew 22:34 - 40?

But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, who was a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him, and saying, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

.Since these two commandments constitute what it means to be a Christian what is the purpose of this doctrinal dispute?

 

[Calgar]

History itself.

That’s not really an answer. Can you direct me to a book or books? An article or something?

What did you read, see, or learn that confirmed your belief?

 

[Izdaari]

Keep in mind that the reforms of the Church were not reforms in doctrine, but in matters of discipline. The Church has never, nor will ever, change the doctrines that it teaches, because it has received those doctrines from Jesus Christ, Himself. And the Church, unlike Protestantism, does not claim the right to correct Jesus Christ.

I understand that you believe that, and it’s quite right that we ought not try to correct Christ. However, it is incorrect, and also rather insulting, to claim that Protestants claim the right to correct Christ. We don’t believe the Catholic Church received its unique doctrines (the ones that aren’t the same as other Christian churches) from Jesus Christ. If we did believe that, we would of course become Catholic. There would be no choice.

 

[Simeon_Hovey]

This is interesting syntax, at what point wouldn’t it be better to restate this so that it says what it really means?
What standard is used to [for those who want to] judge a Protestant Church?
Just where does it say that God judges churches as well as individuals? Also I seem to recall Jesus saying that judgment is in the hands of God alone.

Isn’t this thread a different way of rehashing Matthew 22:34 - 40?Since these two commandments constitute what it means to be a Christian what is the purpose of this doctrinal dispute?

I’ve received an emergency call and I meant to save this off line and come back later to finish it but I accidentally submitted it – sorry. I’ll be back later.

 

[Scoobyshme]

So protestants disagree with Christ and seek to correct Him?

That’s a pretty bold statement. Please tell me how all the Christians that aren’t members of the Catholic Church are correcting Christ.

Christ founded a (one) Church, with which He promised to remain with till the end of the world., and to which He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead it “into all truth.” Even St. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:15, says that this Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” No other Christian church existed for the first 1000 years of Christianity.

When Protestants create a separate entity (denomination) and vary from the constant teachings of Christ’s Church, then they, in effect, are trying to correct Christ’s teaching, and His actions (founding a Church). They think He got it wrong and they finally got it right.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I understand that you believe that, and it’s quite right that we ought not try to correct Christ. However, it is incorrect, and also rather insulting, to claim that Protestants claim the right to correct Christ. We don’t believe the Catholic Church received its unique doctrines (the ones that aren’t the same as other Christian churches) from Jesus Christ. If we did believe that, we would of course become Catholic. There would be no choice.

Well, then, you are tasked with explaining how, after 1500 years of Catholic-only Christianity, HOW did Protestantism get Christ’s truths? Did He come again and have another Divine Public Revelation? Did an angel appear with the teachings (like Mormons claim)? How?

And, we believe that the truth cannot contradict itself. Yet, there are literally thousands of Protestant denominations, all founded by mere men, all having some different doctrine.

Just for an example: The Baptists believe that infant baptism is not valid. Yet, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Episcopaleans do believe it is valid. All these groups read the same Bible, and all claim to be “led by the Holy Spirit” in their interpretation of that same Bible? Somebody’s got to be wrong. Multiply this principle times all the Protestant denominations and there is no way anyone can know who is right because there is no visible authority. The buck stops nowhere. Anyone’s personal interpretation is deemed as valid as anyone else’s.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

We consider all validly baptized Christians as part of the one Church, although Protestants are not in full communion with the one Church. There is but one Church, which is the Body of Christ, because Christ only has one body. And that Church is the Catholic Church.

They separate themselves from the Body of Christ; it is not us who separates them.

Agreed, Protestants are Christians by valid baptism but will never have The Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ due to this separation…

Matthew

 

[SteveVH]

That’s not really an answer. Can you direct me to a book or books? An article or something?

What did you read, see, or learn that confirmed your belief?

Well, it is really an answer. I’m a little surprised that you find this to be recent news, but yes, the Catholic Church is the origninal Church founded by Jesus Christ. If you want books, begin with the Bible. The 27 books of the New Testament are Catholic documents, written by Catholics and canonized by Catholics. Then you could move on to the writngs of the early Church Fathers. William A. Jurgens has a series of books in four volumes, I believe, that are excellent. Or pick up most any history book. Granted, there are some nut cases out there like Lorraine Boettner but for the most part any relatively honest historian should do.

If you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the original Church then please name that Church that is.