At what point do we not consider certain Protestant churches as legitimate?

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That’s not really an answer. Can you direct me to a book or books? An article or something?

What did you read, see, or learn that confirmed your belief?
It’s called History! You can find early Church history anywhere on the web! You can learn all about early church history. I think you will find Christ only founded ONE CHURCH. The Catholic Church. That’s the only place where you will the truth about Christ my friend! 👍👍

Matthew
 
I understand that you believe that, and it’s quite right that we ought not try to correct Christ. However, it is incorrect, and also rather insulting, to claim that Protestants claim the right to correct Christ. We don’t believe the Catholic Church received its unique doctrines (the ones that aren’t the same as other Christian churches) from Jesus Christ. If we did believe that, we would of course become Catholic. There would be no choice.
It was alarming to me, before my conversion to the CC, to find doctrines had been changed in protestant churches. For example, in 1930 the Episcopalian Church decided that contraception was good when used inside of marriage. Up to that point in history, ALL Christian churches taught against contraception. By the 1960’s most protestant churches had embraced, or at least allowed, contraception. To my knowledge, no protestant denominations teach against contraception now.
Contraception was defeated in the protestant church, up next homosexuality.:slapfight: Historically, this was never a point of argument in Christian Churches, but now this has divided churches all over the country. Some say its a sin, others ordain openly homosexual clergy. I am just showing how these doctrines have changed in the last 80 years or so. Many doctrines have been changed or excluded throughout the last 500 years of protesting against the Church in Rome.
History has shown us division as a fruit of the protestant reformation. Christ told us " 43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.". Division doesn’t seem to be “good fruit”. Divisions certainly don’t fit in to the prayer in the Garden “so they may be one, as we are one” from John 17. All verses are quoted from the NIV.
 
When Protestants create a separate entity (denomination) and vary from the constant teachings of Christ’s Church, then they, in effect, are trying to correct Christ’s teaching, and His actions (founding a Church). They think He got it wrong and they finally got it right.
That might be the case but that is not likely to be a fruitful way to convince people. The divisions are caused by people believing that they are staying true to Christ’s teachings. They do not believe they are correcting Christ but correcting man’s corruption of His teachings. Accusing people of correcting Christ’s teachings would not be my opening argument.

By the way if studies are correct a significant number of Catholics do not hold to Catholic doctrine which would, by your standard, be correcting Christ’s teaching. That would be a greater problem since they proclaim themselves to be Catholic.
It was alarming to me, before my conversion to the CC, to find doctrines had been changed in protestant churches. For example, in 1930 the Episcopalian Church decided that contraception was good when used inside of marriage. Up to that point in history, ALL Christian churches taught against contraception. By the 1960’s most protestant churches had embraced, or at least allowed, contraception. To my knowledge, no protestant denominations teach against contraception now. Contraception was defeated in the protestant church, up next homosexuality.
This has disturbed me as well. I had for a long time assumed teaching against contraception to be a Catholic thing. My conception of the issue was shaped by the times I was raised in. Pondering the steady abandonment of any moral standard (save the enthusiastic acceptance of all that had formerly been wrong) by the majority of Protestantism has caused me to question the foundation of Protestantism.
 
Christ founded a (one) Church, with which He promised to remain with till the end of the world., and to which He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead it “into all truth.” Even St. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:15, says that this Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” No other Christian church existed for the first 1000 years of Christianity.

When Protestants create a separate entity (denomination) and vary from the constant teachings of Christ’s Church, then they, in effect, are trying to correct Christ’s teaching, and His actions (founding a Church). They think He got it wrong and they finally got it right.
Well you say it so it must be true. 🙂
 
It does reform itself – it eventually adopted many of the reforms Luther advocated
What are these?
but at an agonizingly slow pace, first giving Luther the boot, and only taking his criticisms to heart over the next several hundred years
Luther told Erasmus that the fundamental point at issue between himself and the Catholic Church was free will–Luther denied it and Catholics affirmed it.

The Catholic Church, if anything, has moved further away from Luther on this point–as have most Protestants.

So perhaps you can explain just what you are referring to.

Sure, some of the points of the humanist reform program, which Luther accepted as incidental to what he was really concerned with, have been accepted by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church no longer insists on a mythical “unanimous consensus of the Fathers,” for instance, but accepts that the Fathers disagreed with each other and that doctrine develops. (The Catholic Church still is not willing to dismiss the Fathers as cavalierly as Luther frequently did–nor should it be.) Vernacular liturgy, again, was something Luther certainly advocated.
and there is still much to be done in the way of reform before I would be willing to “come home” to it.
Specifically?

There are things I’d like the Catholic Church to do, as well. But I don’t want a church tailor-made to my specifications. That wouldn’t be a real Church.

Edwin
 
It’s called History! You can find early Church history anywhere on the web!
The first link that comes up when I Google "early church history is this one. Not a bad one by any means–it’s run by moderate evangelical Protestants with Ph.D’s, and is far superior to much of the propagandistic bunk you can find on the Web. (Note–each linked word takes you to a different website.) However, I suspect that you wouldn’t approve of everything that these learned gentlemen have to say.

History, as the poster GKC likes to say, is complicated.

Edwin
 
The first link that comes up when I Google "early church history is this one. Not a bad one by any means–it’s run by moderate evangelical Protestants with Ph.D’s, and is far superior to much of the propagandistic bunk you can find on the Web. (Note–each linked word takes you to a different website.) However, I suspect that you wouldn’t approve of everything that these learned gentlemen have to say.

History, as the poster GKC likes to say, is complicated.

Edwin
And, often, more so, the more you study it.

GKC
 
That might be the case but that is not likely to be a fruitful way to convince people. The divisions are caused by people believing that they are staying true to Christ’s teachings. They do not believe they are correcting Christ but correcting man’s corruption of His teachings. Accusing people of correcting Christ’s teachings would not be my opening argument.

The late Pope John Paul II said that when we teach the truth, God’s grace accompanies that truth. When the individual hearing the truth needs that grace, it will be there for them. If you read about the lives of the Apostles, they weren’t all that concerned about being tactful either. One story has St. John, the Apostle, while in Greece, going into a bath house. Someone told him a particular individual, who was a well-known heretic, was there. St. John started yelling to everyone, “Get out! Get out! The heretic, (whatever his name was) is in the building and it might fall down!” Not very tactful. LOL So, I guess I’m guilty as charged. 🙂

By the way if studies are correct a significant number of Catholics do not hold to Catholic doctrine which would, by your standard, be correcting Christ’s teaching. That would be a greater problem since they proclaim themselves to be Catholic.

I think there are a significant number of people, at least in this country, who claim to be Catholic but reject one or more Church teachings. The definition of heresy is the obstinate, postbaptismal denial of a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or likewise, it is an obstinate doubt about the same. Heretics, according to canon law, are automatically excommunicated from the Church (latae sententae). No pronouncement by a bishop or the Pope is necessary. No paperwork, etc. It’s just a done deal. So, if they obstinately reject, or even just obstinately doubt, any teaching of the Church, they’re out. They are, in effect, Protest-ants.
 
Isn’t this thread a different way of rehashing Matthew 22:34 - 40?
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, who was a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him, and saying, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Since Jesus was addressing the Pharisses (who were of course Jewish), couldn’t the case be made that these two commandments constitute what it means to be Jewish?
 
The 27 books of the New Testament are Catholic documents, written by Catholics and canonized by Catholics.
I’ll be reading the things you mentioned, but I want you to clarify something for me:

The Bible was authored by the Catholic Church? What place does God have in the creation of the Bible, by Catholic views?
 
It’s called History! You can find early Church history anywhere on the web! You can learn all about early church history. I think you will find Christ only founded ONE CHURCH. The Catholic Church. That’s the only place where you will the truth about Christ my friend! 👍👍

Matthew
Wow! I searched the web. Is this what you wanted me to read?

christian-history.org/roman-catholic-one-true-church.html

I know you’ve been told what to believe. Help me understand by being more specific than: anywhere on the web!
 
I’ll be reading the things you mentioned, but I want you to clarify something for me:

The Bible was authored by the Catholic Church? What place does God have in the creation of the Bible, by Catholic views?
Via the Holy Spirit working through the Churchmen who studied the writings. The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writers of the texts was given to the Apostles and via the laying on of hands authorized the previous generations to hold the offices of Bishop in the Church.
 
How about the bible itself. The bible says the Church is the Pilar of all truth. Hows that for starters.
It’s not good for starters on whether or not the roman catholic church is THE church.

The greek orthodox and a few others make the same claim too.
 
And the Church compiled the Bible. Sounds like a circular arguement.
Nope. From Proving Inspiration,
Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.
 
It’s not good for starters on whether or not the roman catholic church is THE church.

The greek orthodox and a few others make the same claim too.
What is exactly your point here. If they have valid Holy Orders they would have Apostolic Succession would they not?
 
It’s not good for starters on whether or not the roman catholic church is THE church.

The greek orthodox and a few others make the same claim too.
Then all cannot be right, can they, because they all have contradictory beliefs about which Church is the original.

A careful study of history, though, clearly shows that the Catholic Church was first, by 1000 years. The Orthodox didn’t separate till 1054 A.D. St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 110 A.D. about the “Catholic” Church. Nowhere do any of the Early Church Fathers reference an “Orthodox Church.” Or any other church. The Protestants didn’t come about till 1517 A.D.
 
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