At what point do we not consider certain Protestant churches as legitimate?

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Then all cannot be right, can they, because they all have contradictory beliefs about which Church is the original.

A careful study of history, though, clearly shows that the Catholic Church was first, by 1000 years. The Orthodox didn’t separate till 1054 A.D. St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 110 A.D. about the “Catholic” Church. Nowhere do any of the Early Church Fathers reference an “Orthodox Church.” Or any other church. The Protestants didn’t come about till 1517 A.D.
You call that “careful”?

You are basing an argument solely on terminology. About as shallow as you get.

Calling your approach a careful study of history is like sniffing a flower and calling it a careful study of botany.

Edwin
 
Wow! I searched the web. Is this what you wanted me to read?

christian-history.org/roman-catholic-one-true-church.html

I know you’ve been told what to believe. Help me understand by being more specific than: anywhere on the web!
If you are truly looking for the truth you can find it my friend and not just on the web!
I find it insulting that you think i believe what i’am told! :mad: Unlike you i know the truth.
There is only ONE TRUTH ! That you will find in the teachings of the Catholic Church!!!

Matthew
 
It’s not good for starters on whether or not the roman catholic church is THE church.

The greek orthodox and a few others make the same claim too.
What few others make the same clam?

Matthew
 
You call that “careful”?

You are basing an argument solely on terminology. About as shallow as you get.

Calling your approach a careful study of history is like sniffing a flower and calling it a careful study of botany.

Edwin
Terminology? It’s based on FACTS my friend… Flowers have nothing to do with it!

Matthew
 
Nope. From Proving Inspiration,
Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.
I’d love to see a separate thread on this one. I don’t want to get off of the OP.
 
You call that “careful”?

You are basing an argument solely on terminology. About as shallow as you get.

Calling your approach a careful study of history is like sniffing a flower and calling it a careful study of botany.

Edwin
“Terminology?” LOL What “Terminology?”

No. Facts. Historical facts. Undeniable, hard, cold facts.

Try studying history for a change, rather than engaging in sophomoric retorts.
 
“Terminology?” LOL What “Terminology?”

No. Facts. Historical facts. Undeniable, hard, cold facts.

Try studying history for a change, rather than engaging in sophomoric retorts.
A fact about terminology, yes.

You think that just calling your Church the Catholic Church makes it so, and rules out the claim of the Orthodox? That doesn’t make any sense.

You wouldn’t resort to such a superficial claim if you could actually show that your Church’s beliefs and practices are more like those of the early Church than Orthodox beliefs and practices are. The “undeniable, hard, cold facts” point, if anything, in the other direction. So you take refuge from these “undeniable, hard, cold facts” in the weird claim that because Ignatius said “Catholic” and you say “Catholic” and the Orthodox, while also saying “Catholic,” use the word “Orthodox” as shorthand to distinguish themselves from their Western rivals, therefore you and you alone really are Catholic.

I have studied history, by the way. I am not interested in matching credentials, but if you really want to do that I am happy to give you my credentials as a church historian and you can respond in kind.

But wouldn’t it be better just to argue based on substance?

Edwin
 
If you are truly looking for the truth you can find it my friend and not just on the web!
I find it insulting that you think i believe what i’am told! :mad: Unlike you i know the truth.
There is only ONE TRUTH ! That you will find in the teachings of the Catholic Church!!!

Matthew
I find it insulting that you just blow off people asking legitimate questions about your church with “look it up on the web!” or “I know the truth.”.

If you are unprepared to talk to others about who are not part of your church ,about your church, maybe you should abstain? 🙂
 
I find it insulting that you just blow off people asking legitimate questions about your church with “look it up on the web!” or “I know the truth.”.

If you are unprepared to talk to others about who are not part of your church ,about your church, maybe you should abstain? 🙂
Here is something to think about. This is to me a very simple way of seeing thing’s and makes the truth easy for me to see.

Okay lets start with ST Peter, now we KNOW he was there at the Truth Church at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit arrived, I am sure we can both agree on that.

Now look at it this way, St Peter is still to this date buried at the RCC. Okay now, History and Reason, GOd gave us both, and it all comes back to both.

Does History PROVE that The Pope of the RCC has the passing of the keys of the kingdom straight from ST Peter. DO the history. Look it up. You can find every single Pope from Peter to today.

Thats hard to turn a blind eye to, you must admit.😃
 
I have studied history, by the way. I am not interested in matching credentials, but if you really want to do that I am happy to give you my credentials as a church historian and you can respond in kind.

But wouldn’t it be better just to argue based on substance?

Edwin
Have your studies in history led you to believe that the Episcopal Church is the true Church, or the closest we can get to it, or a legitimate (and somehow preferable) branch of the Church?

I would simply ask why you are an Episcopalian but that might go too far afield 🙂

Thanks.
 
Have your studies in history led you to believe that the Episcopal Church is the true Church
Emphatically not. And I should add that the Episcopal Church is simply a province of the worldwide Anglican Communion, though I have realized in recent years that many of my fellow Episcopalians don’t see things that way, and those of us who do see things that way are in an increasingly difficult position within the Episcopal Church. However, I certainly don’t think the AC is the true Church either.
or the closest we can get to it
I think that given the divisions in Christianity Anglicanism has certain advantages, inasmuch as it has managed to retain many of the truths and beauties found in other forms of Christianity. However, this has not been because of some special virtue on our part. One could argue that it’s due to divine providence and should be gratefully accepted. But the other side of it is that we really lack a coherent identity. It’s tempting to argue that we have a special ecumenical mission, and I think that’s the main justification for being Anglican (other than simply the fact that one first became a Christian through this form of Christianity–which is not true in my case), but I don’t really think it holds up.
or a legitimate (and somehow preferable) branch of the Church?
I wouldn’t claim that we are “preferable.” I certainly believe that we are a fellowship of baptized believers, and in that sense legitimate. Whether we have valid apostolic succession I do not know. I firmly believe that I have received grace through the Eucharist in Anglicanism, but I am not going to claim dogmatically that this proves we have the Real Presence in the full Catholic sense.

I do not think that our separation from Rome is justified. If there were a way that I could enter into communion with Rome without breaking communion with the particular Anglican community in which I am presently involved, I would do so immediately.
I would simply ask why you are an Episcopalian but that might go too far afield
Well, the whole story is a long and convoluted one. Basically I was looking into Catholicism, my family were convinced that I was deluded by Satan, and I was very unsure of myself. I became involved in an Episcopal parish which was a powerful means of grace to me at that time, and intellectually I found myself more in agreement with the moderate reformist elements of early sixteenth century Catholicism than with either Protestant confessionalism or the Council of Trent’s somewhat narrower and dogmatic formulation of Catholicism. I nearly became Catholic about a year and a half after becoming Episcopalian, but couldn’t bring myself to make the jump. And so it has remained for the past twelve years (twelve years since I was in RCIA and nearly became Catholic, that is). Now I have a wife, a daughter, and a job, all of which make things a lot more complicated:D

Edwin
 
Well, the whole story is a long and convoluted one. Basically I was looking into Catholicism, my family were convinced that I was deluded by Satan, and I was very unsure of myself. I became involved in an Episcopal parish which was a powerful means of grace to me at that time, and intellectually I found myself more in agreement with the moderate reformist elements of early sixteenth century Catholicism than with either Protestant confessionalism or the Council of Trent’s somewhat narrower and dogmatic formulation of Catholicism. I nearly became Catholic about a year and a half after becoming Episcopalian, but couldn’t bring myself to make the jump. And so it has remained for the past twelve years (twelve years since I was in RCIA and nearly became Catholic, that is). Now I have a wife, a daughter, and a job, all of which make things a lot more complicated:D

Edwin
Thank you Edwin. I went to an Episcopalian church for a year before I converted to Catholicism. I could not be an Episcopalian now obviously, but I owe them a great deal in teaching me so much about the beauty of liturgy (the pastor sang almost all of it, every Sunday). I still remember them going all-out to decorate the church for Easter. It was not an unwelcome stop for a born-and-raised non-sacramental evangelical like me on the road to Rome.
 
who is “we?” The Catholic Church decides who is in communion with her.
Yeah, but not in any specific list.
I don’t consider a Protestant (or other) church to be legit if they preach “a different gospel”, i.e. if their doctrine is cultish rather than orthodox. That would include all Protestant churches that claim exclusivity.
That would call into question the degree of “cultishness”, would it not? Is there a distinct line for you or are there areas of grey?
Unfortunately, every Protestant church teaches a different Gospel, i.e., at least one false doctrine. That’s not to say they are culpable, since they may be invincibly ignorant (clinical term, not polemical, please) and not really know that they’re wrong.
Good point. Many here on the CAF would deny that any Protestant could be invincibly ignorant, but that would be contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches.
There are six or seven main streams of Protestantism. Anglicanism. Lutheranism, Reformed (Presbyterian, UCC, etc), Wesleyanism (Methodist), Pentecostalism, Baptists, Anabaptists (Mennonites, Amish), and Quakers, Unitarians etc (depending upon how broad one defines Protestantism). There are many denominations within some of these traditions. In this town, for example, we have Baptist churches representing at least four Baptist strains.
Code:
  As far as I'm concerned, all sincere Protestant groups are legitimate and deserve respect. Many of them have cooperated for years through the World and National Councils of Churches, or the National Association of Evangelicals. Many Eastern Orthodox groups are in these councils, also. 

  There are, here and there, local churches that may pretend to be Protestant but may be scams. Some of those TV preachers who want you to plant your seed (send them money) and promise that God will make you rich, healthy or whatever - not legitimate. There always are a few preachers, like some priests, who are living double lives. This doesn't go by denomination so much, though they are more likely to infect independent churches that are founded by and around some pastor and who have no higher authority to oversee them and punish those who blemish or disgrace their calling.

  It's sad when clergy, Catholic or Protestant, betray their vows. But we all are human beings and as such we all fall short. Still, such men (and women) should be exposed for whatever coruption they may embrace. 

  Generally speaking, Protestant churches and clergy are as legitimate and as worthy of respect as those of any other faith.
Begs the question as to how to determine if an ecclesial body is “sincere” and to what degree, no?
Agreed, Protestants are Christians by valid baptism but will never have The Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ due to this separation…

Matthew
…meaning that they don’t have a valid Eucharist?
 
The orthadox churches. Anglicans. Lutherans.

Hope that helped you. 🙂
The Anglicans and Lutherans broke from Apostolic succession and therefore do NOT have valid holy orders and will never have The Holy Eucharist!

Matthew
 
The Anglicans and Lutherans broke from Apostolic succession and therefore do NOT have valid holy orders and will never have The Holy Eucharist!

Matthew
Anglican, I’ll admit I was wrong on that one.

Lutherans…I’m not sure. Lutheran churches in Europe do claim apostolic succession.

What about orthodox?
 
Here is something to think about. This is to me a very simple way of seeing thing’s and makes the truth easy for me to see.

Okay lets start with ST Peter, now we KNOW he was there at the Truth Church at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit arrived, I am sure we can both agree on that.

Now look at it this way, St Peter is still to this date buried at the RCC. Okay now, History and Reason, GOd gave us both, and it all comes back to both.

Does History PROVE that The Pope of the RCC has the passing of the keys of the kingdom straight from ST Peter. DO the history. Look it up. You can find every single Pope from Peter to today.

Thats hard to turn a blind eye to, you must admit.😃
Wait, you’ve lost me.

If an apostle was at Pentecost and burried at the rcc he’s pope?
 
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