At what point do you believe the bible to be historical

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Do you accept the 7 day Creation?
Noah?
Abraham?
Joseph?
Moses?
Some later point?

I tend to not believe in the 7 day creation, and I have some qualms about the flood story. Past that I have little problems taking it literally

Where do you stand, and more importantly, at what point would the Church say you have to take the scripture literally?
 
I’ve heard it said this way, the Bible is chuck full of Truth, not necessarily facts.
 
The bible is inspired not dictated. So yes I believe all those things in proper context, which is not to say they occurred exactly as written. Please note Jesus often spoke in parables like to owner of the vineyard whose son was killed. If one asked where is that garden physical located? ( real answer is human race) similarly when Lot’s wife turned to salt, I think it refers to the salt paid her for services not a free standing statue of sodium chloride.
 
The trouble remains that when too many thinks become parables and inspired stories, people tend to dismiss both story and message as fictional.

Further, I see not why it is so hard for the Almighty to make the earth in seven days, flood the earth, and do many other things, yet raise His dead Son.

Meaning to say, if you press too hard that what’s in the OT isn’t “real”, people might apply your standard to what happened in the NT, and if Christ isn’t risen, bretheren, our faith is in vain.

(This would be a nice thread for a poll)
 
Do you accept the 7 day Creation?
Noah?
Abraham?
Joseph?
Moses?
Some later point?

I tend to not believe in the 7 day creation, and I have some qualms about the flood story. Past that I have little problems taking it literally

Where do you stand, and more importantly, at what point would the Church say you have to take the scripture literally?
I accept the 7 day creation as properly interpreted and understood by the Church. The 7 days are not 24 hour days–they are epochs, divisions between one phase of life on earth and another. The language is that of mythology (and mythology is NOT the same thing as “falsity”). It’s meant to tell us that God made everything and that he made man to be steward of his creation. It was not meant to give us a blow by blow scientific (as we understand the word) description of how the world began.

And yes, I believe in Noah. I believe the time of Noah was the time when people all lived in the same geographical area of Mesopotamia, not scattered all around the globe as we are now. There are various geological/astronomical events that match the flood story very well. And we know that all human beings are related to one another, so exactly how it happened is a mystery, but it’s perfectly plausible as the Bible relates it.

As for Abraham, there is evidence of the kinds of societies the Bible relates in his case, as well, even clearer evidence since archeology has found remnants for them. Earlier than Abraham there is less evidence only because so much time has gone by and erased it. What we have even of the times of Jesus which is much more recent are only bits and pieces, really.

We have to remember that our modern sciences are quite recent. We didn’t start seriously looking into the ancient world until the 19th century. Much evidence is simply gone, so we can only speculate about a good many things, be they mentioned in the Bible or not. We can’t expect precise information about peoples long gone. It simply doesn’t exist. But, we know that the ancients who recorded their histories were relaying what they knew at the time. There were very few attempts to deceive, even by the Egyptians who thought nothing of rewriting history to suit their own needs. It’s a wonder we know as much as we do under the circumstances.

So, I don’t judge the biblical accounts according to modern sensibilities, but according to the sensibilities of the people who wrote them, knowing that what we need to know for our salvation written by the authors of the Bible is true and reliable for that purpose. If it weren’t Our Lord would never have used the OT as he did nor would the Church have included the OT in the canon of Sacred Scripture.
 
I can understand why you look to the magisterium of the church for guidance. If God couldn’t create the world in 6 literal 24 hour days, on what basis do you contend that the Pope is infallible? If you don’t believe Noah and the flood, on what basis do you believe the Resurrection? If you don’t believe Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt, on what basis do you believe in infant baptism? If you don’t believe the Bible, on what basis do you believe the church?
 
“7” and for that matter “40” had expanded meaning in those times. 7 days also meant “all days” while 40 also mean " a period of complete discernment"
 
“7” and for that matter “40” had expanded meaning in those times. 7 days also meant “all days” while 40 also mean " a period of complete discernment"
Which 40? Number tend to repeat themselves…40 days and nights fasting in the desert? If so, why would we bother with 40 days of Lent?
 
Which 40? Number tend to repeat themselves…40 days and nights fasting in the desert? If so, why would we bother with 40 days of Lent?
That is just it when they used the term 40 we do not always know whether they meant more than 39 and less than 41 or a period in the desert until the complete plan was made/accepted, neither interpretation can be excluded from such a statement.
 
I can understand why you look to the magisterium of the church for guidance. If God couldn’t create the world in 6 literal 24 hour days, on what basis do you contend that the Pope is infallible? If you don’t believe Noah and the flood, on what basis do you believe the Resurrection? If you don’t believe Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt, on what basis do you believe in infant baptism? If you don’t believe the Bible, on what basis do you believe the church?
Well, it’s not that God couldn’t have created the world/universe in 6 days. He certainly could have, but the ancient writers weren’t writing about 6 days of 24 hours, but of 6 time divisions of no particular time. It’s symbolic language used in mythological writings (we have already established that mythology is not “falsity”). So, for Catholics it’s not either a 6 day creation or no Resurrection. We know those who wrote about the Resurrection intended to tell us about an event that took place within a set time period. We also know the writers of the creation story had no such intention. The intentions of the author have to be taken into consideration or we lose what it is they were trying to convey to us. So, we do believe the Bible, most emphatically, we just don’t interpret it literalistically.

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about biblical interpretation:
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
  3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
    118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
    The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
    The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
 
Do you accept the 7 day Creation?
Noah?
Abraham?
Joseph?
Moses?
Some later point?

I tend to not believe in the 7 day creation, and I have some qualms about the flood story. Past that I have little problems taking it literally

Where do you stand, and more importantly, at what point would the Church say you have to take the scripture literally?
I don’t accept the 7 day creation at all. I believe that the author we call the Final Redactor intentionally and carefully brought together two essentially contradictory creation accounts into one book, Genesis. IMHO, the inspired Final Redactor had no intent, at all, to teach creation history. I think that he was intent on teaching underlying theology.

The gymnastics many devout Bible readers engage in to avoid contradiction between Genesis 1 on the one hand and Genesis 2-3 on the other, and to square creation accounts with science, are wrong. “Inspired” =/= “historical,” IMO.

I don’t know if Noah existed. I believe that there was a flood of cosmic proportions. I believe that there was an ark. But I don’t believe that the account is intended to be historical. It’s intended to teach theology wqith symbolism.

I believe that Abraham existed. But, many of the chapters of Abraham’s story appear to be ancient fairy tales borrowed from other cultures, according to Frazer and Gaster. Ditto for Joseph and Moses.

Moses’ name is extremely interesting. A friend of mine, Norman Totten (who I haven’t talked to in years, I confess, and who may have passed away by now) wrote an article arguing that Moses isn’t really Moses’ name, but " ]-Moses" – “Moses” preceded by an invisible first syllable. His argument was that Ramases’ name in effect was also “Moses,” “Moses” of the god Ra – “Ra-Moses,” get it? And Thutmose was really “Moses” of the god Thut – Thut-Moses, get it? So, Moses was called “Moses” because he was “Moses of the un-nameable god” – " ]-Moses," get it?
 


Moses’ name is extremely interesting. A friend of mine, Norman Totten (who I haven’t talked to in years, I confess, and who may have passed away by now) wrote an article arguing that Moses isn’t really Moses’ name, but " ]-Moses" – “Moses” preceded by an invisible first syllable. His argument was that Ramases’ name in effect was also “Moses,” “Moses” of the god Ra – “Ra-Moses,” get it? And Thutmose was really “Moses” of the god Thut – Thut-Moses, get it? So, Moses was called “Moses” because he was “Moses of the un-nameable god” – " ]-Moses," get it?
So he walks into a bar and says, “**I AM **Moses!” :rotfl:
 
So he walks into a bar and says, “**I AM **Moses!” :rotfl:
Cute.

I actually thought that Norman’s insight was fascinating.

By the way, Nortman Totten is one of the great, great intellectuals of our era.
 
I don’t accept the 7 day creation at all. I believe that the author we call the Final Redactor intentionally and carefully brought together two essentially contradictory creation accounts into one book, Genesis. IMHO, the inspired Final Redactor had no intent, at all, to teach creation history. I think that he was intent on teaching underlying theology.

The gymnastics many devout Bible readers engage in to avoid contradiction between Genesis 1 on the one hand and Genesis 2-3 on the other, and to square creation accounts with science, are wrong. “Inspired” =/= “historical,” IMO.

I don’t know if Noah existed. I believe that there was a flood of cosmic proportions. I believe that there was an ark. But I don’t believe that the account is intended to be historical. It’s intended to teach theology wqith symbolism.

I believe that Abraham existed. But, many of the chapters of Abraham’s story appear to be ancient fairy tales borrowed from other cultures, according to Frazer and Gaster. Ditto for Joseph and Moses.

Moses’ name is extremely interesting. A friend of mine, Norman Totten (who I haven’t talked to in years, I confess, and who may have passed away by now) wrote an article arguing that Moses isn’t really Moses’ name, but " ]-Moses" – “Moses” preceded by an invisible first syllable. His argument was that Ramases’ name in effect was also “Moses,” “Moses” of the god Ra – “Ra-Moses,” get it? And Thutmose was really “Moses” of the god Thut – Thut-Moses, get it? So, Moses was called “Moses” because he was “Moses of the un-nameable god” – " ]-Moses," get it?
Equally, and more common in our day, are those who have to “make sense”, in the modern way of thinking, of ancient mythological stories. The creation of man stories are not contradictory but complimentary. The first one is very simple and tells a very simple lesson–God created man and woman. The second story fills in what happened in more detail, that’s all, and that’s why the two stories were put together by those who compiled the creation stories, which were passed down to them. By picking at these stories, we’re still trying to make an exact science out of writings that were never meant to undergo that kind of scrutiny. It’s sacred storytelling, songs, hymns, not science. Does that make it unreliable? Not at all–it makes it all the more remarkable that we have so much of it intact and still helpful to us today. Miraculous is the word that comes to mind.

As for Moses’ name, I think that’s a great lesson for us. Moses is identified with his mission–of bringing to his people the word of the One who has no limiting name, such as “sun-god” or “earth-god”, etc. but is simply God–the God of everything. Bible names often are descriptions rather than “given” names, as we think of them. It’s the same with Adam, which is simply “man” (as I recall) and Eve (mother of the living). But, all of them were real people just the same and their stories tell us real things about us as people and about God. What else really matters? 🙂
 
Equally, and more common in our day, are those who have to “make sense”, in the modern way of thinking, of ancient mythological stories. The creation of man stories are not contradictory but complimentary. The first one is very simple and tells a very simple lesson–God created man and woman. The second story fills in what happened in more detail, that’s all, and that’s why the two stories were put together by those who compiled the creation stories, which were passed down to them. By picking at these stories, we’re still trying to make an exact science out of writings that were never meant to undergo that kind of scrutiny. It’s sacred storytelling, songs, hymns, not science. Does that make it unreliable? Not at all–it makes it all the more remarkable that we have so much of it intact and still helpful to us today. Miraculous is the word that comes to mind.

As for Moses’ name, I think that’s a great lesson for us. Moses is identified with his mission–of bringing to his people the word of the One who has no limiting name, such as “sun-god” or “earth-god”, etc. but is simply God–the God of everything. Bible names often are descriptions rather than “given” names, as we think of them. It’s the same with Adam, which is simply “man” (as I recall) and Eve (mother of the living). But, all of them were real people just the same and their stories tell us real things about us as people and about God. What else really matters? 🙂
Hi, Della.

Thank you for your kind words about Norman’s idea. I regard him as a kindred spirit. Kind words about his thinking are kind words to me.
 
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Della:
Well, it’s not that God couldn’t have created the world/universe in 6 days. He certainly could have, but the ancient writers weren’t writing about 6 days of 24 hours, but of 6 time divisions of no particular time. It’s symbolic language used in mythological writings (we have already established that mythology is not “falsity”). So, for Catholics it’s not either a 6 day creation or no Resurrection. We know those who wrote about the Resurrection intended to tell us about an event that took place within a set time period. We also know the writers of the creation story had no such intention. The intentions of the author have to be taken into consideration or we lose what it is they were trying to convey to us. So, we do believe the Bible, most emphatically, we just don’t interpret it literalistically.
So “the evening and the morning were the … day” doesn’t indicate a 24 hour day? And how could symbiotic relationships develop with only 1 part of the relationship around for “no particular time”? For example, how were plants pollinated before insects were created? What did dung beetles push around when there was no dung for “no particular time”? I certainly don’t expect you to change your mind about the Bible, but there may be others that will consider what is being presented.
 
So “the evening and the morning were the … day” doesn’t indicate a 24 hour day? And how could symbiotic relationships develop with only 1 part of the relationship around for “no particular time”? For example, how were plants pollinated before insects were created? What did dung beetles push around when there was no dung for “no particular time”? I certainly don’t expect you to change your mind about the Bible, but there may be others that will consider what is being presented.
I haven’t the foggiest notion why a literal 6 day creation would prove your case for you regarding the development of life and how it is integrated. It seems to me they all developed together, according to God’s plan. I’m not a random evolutionist, I’m a believer in God who doesn’t have to interpret Scripture according to 19th century understandings in order to believe.
 
I believe the bible is the Word of God and is Truth. It is certain that he made the world in 6 days and he rested the 7th day. Two reasons for this belief. 1.) God cannot and will not lie.
2.) Nothing is impossible for God.

I have heard all the arguments and the excuses by atheists. The one thing God does is let them be misled by strong delusion. If God was not truthful then everything would be untrustworthy and our faith would be for nothing. I trust God not man so I am bias for God in these things. He is the only person I think can be trusted to know how he made the world.
If he says he did it in 6 days and Christ who walked on water and raised the dead stood for everything he said. Then I do not intend to have egg on my face on judgement day.😃

My vote is God tells us as it is. Not because man can prove it but God can.👍
 
The trouble remains that when too many thinks become parables and inspired stories, people tend to dismiss both story and message as fictional.

Further, I see not why it is so hard for the Almighty to make the earth in seven days, flood the earth, and do many other things, yet raise His dead Son.

Meaning to say, if you press too hard that what’s in the OT isn’t “real”, people might apply your standard to what happened in the NT, and if Christ isn’t risen, bretheren, our faith is in vain.

(This would be a nice thread for a poll)
I agree with you, and i tend to think that around the time of Abraham, much of the bible becomes at least semi-historical.

And i would have made a poll, but theres so many variations of answers
I believe the bible is the Word of God and is Truth. It is certain that he made the world in 6 days and he rested the 7th day. Two reasons for this belief. 1.) God cannot and will not lie.
2.) Nothing is impossible for God.

I have heard all the arguments and the excuses by atheists. The one thing God does is let them be misled by strong delusion. If God was not truthful then everything would be untrustworthy and our faith would be for nothing. I trust God not man so I am bias for God in these things. He is the only person I think can be trusted to know how he made the world.
If he says he did it in 6 days and Christ who walked on water and raised the dead stood for everything he said. Then I do not intend to have egg on my face on judgement day.😃

My vote is God tells us as it is. Not because man can prove it but God can.👍
God telling a story≠God Lying

if, as I think, creation was not in 7, 24 hour, days, it would be no more a lie than the prodigal son, which is to say it wouldn’t be one at all
 
God telling a story≠God Lying

if, as I think, creation was not in 7, 24 hour, days, it would be no more a lie than the prodigal son, which is to say it wouldn’t be one at all
Or the two different genealogies given for Jesus (through Joseph) in Matthew and Luke.

And what about all the evidences of an old earth that are totally incompatible with the age most seven-day creationists attribute to it? Wouldn’t they equally be instances of God lying?

Not that I really have an opinion on a seven-day creation one way or the other. As for the flood - there’s every evidence that there was at least a widespread catastrophic flood if not a worldwide one. And certainly if God wanted to rid the earth of everyone except Noah’s clan there’s no reason why he couldn’t have, for example, used multiple methods - flood in one area, other causes in other areas.
 
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