At what point does "opinion" become "judgement"

[JRKH]

We are told not to judge for how we judge will how we are judged…

But what of “opinion”?

I think that we sometimes try to sneak around the “judgement” clause by calling our position “just my opinion”…

I’m not saying that the two things should be seen as interchangeable - but I wonder - at what point does “opinion” become “judgement”?
Where would the lines start to blur between the two?
And if how we judge is how we will be judged…could the same thing apply to opinions?

Is the idea of “opinion” even expressed in Scripture???

What say you???

Peace
James

 

[Verbum]

Hi Jr,

OPINION : A man and a woman should be married before they live together.

JUDGMENT : Mary and Paul live together without being married . They are sinners and are going to hell.

Verbum

 

[JRKH]

Hi Jr,

OPINION : A man and a woman should be married before they live together.

JUDGMENT : Mary and Paul live together without being married . They are sinners and are going to hell.

Verbum

Let’s make a slight change here…

“Mary and Paul live together without being married . They are sinners and are going to hell. Of course that is just my opinion”…

Is the statement now a judgement or an opinion?

Or how bout this…

George “Mary and Paul live together without being married . They are sinners and are going to hell.”
Frank: “Careful George, we are not suppose to Judge”
George "I’m not judging, I’m stating my opinion based on Scripture…

Peace
James

 

[saveusfromhell]

mary and paul ARE going to @#!% Judging
Mary and Paul are on the road to @#!% , not judging.

Judas is in hell. judging
if you continue to deny Jesus you will go to hell.
we don’t know for who are when God Intervenes filling them with the grace and the fullness of truth allowing them perfect contrition for their sins prior to them dying, even if we presume wrongly all hope may have been lost for them.

 

[JRKH]

mary and paul ARE going to @#!% Judging
Mary and Paul are on the road to @#!% , not judging

Please explain the difference…

If I am in my car and driving to my sister’s…
It can be said that- I am going to my sister’s house.
It can be said that - I am on the road to my sister’s house.

What makes one a judgement and the other an opinion?

Peace
James

 

[Verbum]

Hi JRKH,

Any “opinion” on the conscience of someone else is unjustified, since only God knows what is in the hearts of men. It is necessarily a judgment and is condemned by the gospels. But let’s refrain from judging those who judge.

Verbum

 

[saveusfromhell]

Please explain the difference…

If I am in my car and driving to my sister’s…
It can be said that- I am going to my sister’s house.
It can be said that - I am on the road to my sister’s house.

What makes one a judgement and the other an opinion?

Peace
James

okay the difference I’m trying to make is there is no doubt your going to @#!% and that you are on the road to @#!% but might not end up there.
it is entirely proper to point out to someone that they are on the road to hell but wrong to decide they are going to end up there.

 

[JRKH]

Hi JRKH,

Any “opinion” on the conscience of someone else is unjustified, since only God knows what is in the hearts of men. It is necessarily a judgment and is condemned by the gospels. But let’s refrain from judging those who judge.

Verbum

So what you are saying is that I am not to have an opinion about what is going on in a person’s mind - based on their words and actions. Am I reading you correctly?

Peace
James

 

[saveusfromhell]

So what you are saying is that I am not to have an opinion about what is going on in a person’s mind - based on their words and actions. Am I reading you correctly?

Peace
James

this is not correct. if that were the case the catholic church could never have excommunicated anyone

 

[JRKH]

okay the difference I’m trying to make is there is no doubt your going to @#!% and that you are on the road to @#!% but might not end up there.
it is entirely proper to point out to someone that they are on the road to hell but wrong to decide they are going to end up there.

Understood…But what I’m trying to get at - (and I’m totally clear on it myself) - is this…

Suppose I were to say that which you say I shouldn’t - namely - “they are going to end up in hell” - but then I follow this with, “Of course that is just my opinion.”
Have I still judged and thus sinned???

There was a comedian many years ago who said, “You can say anything you want so long as you follow it with, ‘only kidding’”.
I sometimes feel like the line between opinion and judgement is sort of like this.
One can say anything they want so long as they follow it with “only my opinion”…

Also - in the interest of “full disclosure” - I’m not necessarily expecting a clear and definitive answer to this matter…but I think it is worth discussing and perhaps many can benefit from such discussion…

Peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Please explain the difference…

If I am in my car and driving to my sister’s…
It can be said that- I am going to my sister’s house.
It can be said that - I am on the road to my sister’s house.

What makes one a judgement and the other an opinion?

Peace
James

let me try.

The problem is that you’re using ‘on the road’ in a different sense.

Let’s try this:

You are in the car driving to your sister’s.
You are driving drunk, without a license, and you are approaching a police vehicle.

My OPINION is that if the officer makes a correct judgment, based on the facts, you will be headed for jail. But of course I can’t know for sure if the officer is bribable, or if you are drunk because you were unknowingly fed a mickey finn, and if you are without a license because somebody stole your wallet, etc.

My JUDGMENT is that if you are, in actual fact, knowingly and freely driving drunk, and you don’t have a license because you’ve lost it due to prior bad behavior, and if the officer is in possession of the facts and acts appropriately, that ANY given person in the same situation, not just you, will face the appropriate legal judgment and thus be headed for jail.

I cannot ‘judge’ as I don’t have all the facts so almost anything is opinion BUT if one uses the term ‘judgment’ as a simple understanding of the INTRINSICS behind a given action, I can certainly judge or DISCERN the normative gravity of the ACTION.

My own judgment is that

 

[JRKH]

let me try.

The problem is that you’re using ‘on the road’ in a different sense.

Let’s try this:

You are in the car driving to your sister’s.
You are driving drunk, without a license, and you are approaching a police vehicle.

My OPINION is that if the officer makes a correct judgment, based on the facts, you will be headed for jail. But of course I can’t know for sure if the officer is bribable, or if you are drunk because you were unknowingly fed a mickey finn, and if you are without a license because somebody stole your wallet, etc.

My JUDGMENT is that if you are, in actual fact, knowingly and freely driving drunk, and you don’t have a license because you’ve lost it due to prior bad behavior, and if the officer is in possession of the facts and acts appropriately, that ANY given person in the same situation, not just you, will face the appropriate legal judgment and thus be headed for jail.

Had my head swimming there for a minute…:hypno:

I cannot ‘judge’ as I don’t have all the facts so almost anything is opinion

This is sort of my point…
But given the various levels of knowledge of facts…and how one might integrate and evaluate those facts…and how one might express themselves…there is quite a gradient of “opinion”…sliding toward…judgement. Wouldn’t you agree??

BUT if one uses the term ‘judgment’ as a simple understanding of the INTRINSICS behind a given action, I can certainly judge or DISCERN the normative gravity of the ACTION.

Fair enough…So if I say (for instance) that some dead tyrant is in hell…based on “a simple understanding of the INTRINSICS behind a given action”, and a, " DISCERN(ment of) the normative gravity of the ACTION", have I judged sinfully?

 

[robert_chacon]

This is what I understand. Simply put, we can place judgment on the sin, not the sinner.

Judgment is reserved for God. It HIS determination as to whether we are His followers and whether we have sinned. Only he knows that.This is part of what the Pope was referring to when he said he cannot judge a homosexual priest who has faith in Christ, including living according to His will.

We as individuals can judge as to whether a persons behavior is sinful or not but we have no ability to know for certain the eventual outcome of that sin in terms of eternity. We can change our lives by witnessing that sin and perhaps pray for and counsel that sinner based on the path he is heading, but other than that, speculating the eventual outcome of that sinners soul is unacceptable and meaningless.

The other part of what I believe the Pope meant is that while may be able to identify a sin as such we have no right to judge a persons dignity any less , much less treat them any differently because of a sin , even if it were a sin we could clearly identify as a sin, such as man walking up to another , pulling a gun and killing him because he did not give over his wallet. The gunman is a murderer, should be apprehended jailed and punished. But we can attribute no less dignity as a child of God to him than to our saintly grandmother. He may be mean, cruel, even evil, but Jesus still loves him as brother and son of His Father, just the same as those of us who sin in the more usual ways.

 

[JRKH]

This is what I understand. Simply put, we can place judgment on the sin, not the sinner.

Judgment is reserved for God. It HIS determination as to whether we are His followers and whether we have sinned. Only he knows that.This is part of what the Pope was referring to when he said he cannot judge a homosexual priest who has faith in Christ, including living according to His will.

We as individuals can judge as to whether a persons behavior is sinful or not but we have no ability to know for certain the eventual outcome of that sin in terms of eternity. We can change our lives by witnessing that sin and perhaps pray for and counsel that sinner based on the path he is heading, but other than that, speculating the eventual outcome of that sinners soul is unacceptable and meaningless.

The other part of what I believe the Pope meant is that while may be able to identify a sin as such we have no right to judge a persons dignity any less , much less treat them any differently because of a sin , even if it were a sin we could clearly identify as a sin, such as man walking up to another , pulling a gun and killing him because he did not give over his wallet. The gunman is a murderer, should be apprehended jailed and punished. But we can attribute no less dignity as a child of God to him than to our saintly grandmother. He may be mean, cruel, even evil, but Jesus still loves him as brother and son of His Father, just the same as those of us who sin in the more usual ways.

Thanks. This is a good expression of proper judgement…
but it doesn’t really answer the question about defining what the difference is between an “opinion” and a “judgement”.

Peace
James

 

[Ben_F]

If the bible is the truth and someone says the bible says this, so maybe we should do it, or not do it. That is an opinion. The bible says call no man father or your going to hell. That is judgement. God bless: Thumbsup:: Thumbsup:: Thumbsup:

 

[Rete]

Judgment in this context happens when you decide what a person deserves.

Justice involves giving to each man what he is due. When you see a person commit some immoral act, and decide what his punishment should be, then you judge him.

So if you tell a man who is cohabitating with his girlfriend that he will go to Hell if he dies in that state of sin, then you have judged him to some extent. But judgment in the pejorative context comes into play when you claim that man deserves Hell for what he has done.

Pointing out that cohabitating with your girlfriend is a mortal sin, however, is *not *judgment. That’s just a statement of fact.

If you accuse somebody of a sin and are wrong about them committing it, then that’s still not judgment, though it might arguably represent grounds for scandal and would require your apology. If, on the other hand, the person is committing the sin out in the open and doesn’t deny it, then you are not “judging them” by pointing out what they are doing is morally wrong.

People who conflate the identification of immoral behavior with “judging” those persons are typically walking, talking nonsense factories.

I can point to what Ariel Castro did and point out that it was horrifically evil. That’s not judging. But the people who say he deserves to burn in Hell forever are in fact judging him.

 

[St_Francis]

I think the difference between opinion and judgement is a false one. Opinion is a conclusion based on facts, maybe poorly based, maybe based on inadequate facts, and then there are those who think they can hold any opinion at all regardless of the facts, because it’s opinion and everyone has a right to their own.

So, opinion is a squishy word. Just saying something is one’s opinion doesn’t mean that the statement is acceptable, either.

There difference we must maintain, which Christ called us to maintain, is the difference between judging an act (objective) and judging the person (subjective). The latter, Christ tells us, is to be left up to God.

For example, Jen and Bill are co-habitating. I can say, pre- or extra-marital sex is objectively a mortal sin. I cannot say, Jen and Bill would go to Hell if they died tonight, are on the road to Hell, are guilty of mortal sin,… I can’t say anything about the *state of their souls, *only the objective nature of their *act(s). *

I tey to keep the thought: There but for the grace of God go I. If I am this bad with the gifts God gave me, what would i be like if I had been born under worse circumstances?

So, in my opinion I think that this is all a way of bringing something to our attention *so we will pray. *It’s well and good to hear the gossip of how the people down the street are misbehaving, to feel the thrill of pleasure that no matter what we may do wrong, at least we don’t do *that, * but what we are really supposed to be doing is to help ourselves attain Heaven by praying instead of delecting, and help others to attain Heaven by praying for them rather than just using them for our little thrill of superiority.

 

[JRKH]

I think the difference between opinion and judgement is a false one. Opinion is a conclusion based on facts, maybe poorly based, maybe based on inadequate facts, and then there are those who think they can hold any opinion at all regardless of the facts, because it’s opinion and everyone has a right to their own.

So, opinion is a squishy word. Just saying something is one’s opinion doesn’t mean that the statement is acceptable, either.

Agreed…and that is, I’m afraid, what many of us do…we draw conclusions based (or misbased if that’s a word) on certain “facts” (or ideas or assumptions) but to avoid being “judgemental” we try to call it “opinion”…

There difference we must maintain, which Christ called us to maintain, is the difference between judging an act (objective) and judging the person (subjective). The latter, Christ tells us, is to be left up to God.

For example, Jen and Bill are co-habitating. I can say, pre- or extra-marital sex is objectively a mortal sin. I cannot say, Jen and Bill would go to Hell if they died tonight, are on the road to Hell, are guilty of mortal sin,… I can’t say anything about the *state of their souls, *only the objective nature of their *act(s). *

I tey to keep the thought: There but for the grace of God go I. If I am this bad with the gifts God gave me, what would i be like if I had been born under worse circumstances?

So, in my opinion ** I think that this is all a way of bringing something to our attention *so we will pray. ***It’s well and good to hear the gossip of how the people down the street are misbehaving, to feel the thrill of pleasure that no matter what we may do wrong, at least we don’t do *that, * but what we are really supposed to be doing is to help ourselves attain Heaven by praying instead of delecting, and help others to attain Heaven by praying for them rather than just using them for our little thrill of superiority.

Well noted…
The idea of this thread IS to get us thinking a bit…(especially me)…and hopefully some spiritual insight or growth is obtained…

Peace
James

 

[robert_chacon]

James,

I am sorry, I was implying something I didn’t say explicitly

That is - we can certainly have an opinion (a judgment) about ones behavior, or sinfulness. We can see that our brother fornicates or steals and judge (or have an opinion) that such behavior is wrong. And that opinion is not inherently bad. In fact, that we are forming opinions about it in a desire to lead more holy lives and help those around us lead more holy lives is a great thing. As I mentioned in the previous post, it may be helpful for you to think about it in terms of your own life or maybe to discuss it with the person sinning to lead him to God. That you have the opinion of his behavior implies our God given ability to think and have empathy, and ultimately to improve our lives.

The distinction is when our opinion moves from the discernment of the behavior as sinful, and consider the implications of the sin to attitudes toward the sinner. So explicitly, the sin of judging another is when we move from discernment of (or opinion about) the sin in general, in application to our own life, in application to the life of the sinner TO judgment of the sinners dignity as person and worse, treat them with less dignity.

Does this help?

 

[JRKH]

The impression I’m getting from the replies is that there really doesn’t seem to be much difference between “opinion” and “judgement”…

Peace
James