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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
With the incarnation? The institution of the Last Supper? The suffering of God? The death of God? Or the Resurrection of God? Or another point? What is the exact point in time…?
At what point does the Old covenent end and the New one begin?
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Brendan
Guest
At the death of Christ on the Cross. That was what was meant by the curtain of the Sanctuary of the Temple being torn in two.
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Brendan
Guest
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Hey, Thanks! Would this also be the point of baptism being the saving normative for salvation?
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Brendan
Guest
Very much so. That is the flowing of water and blood from the side of Christ.
The water is Baptism.
It is also point in time of the founding of the Church.
That was when both the Church was established, and given the Holy Waters of Baptism, but the mandate for Baptism came in the Great Commission
“Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father…”
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therese14
Guest
I think you can follow for sure the bible, it starts with Matthew 1 (New Testament)
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Edmundus1581
Guest
It’s an interesting question!
Each of the times you proposed could be considered:
*With the incarnation? The institution of the Last Supper? The suffering of God? The death of God? Or the Resurrection of God? Or another point? What is the exact point in time…? *
I considered that the start of Jesus’ public ministry *might *be the end of the Old Covenant because that was when Jesus taught, on his own authority, a standard which was higher than than the law of Moses, such as removing the conditions for divorce.
However, I agree with this answer…
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
[Eph 2:11-22]
Each of the times you proposed could be considered:
*With the incarnation? The institution of the Last Supper? The suffering of God? The death of God? Or the Resurrection of God? Or another point? What is the exact point in time…? *
I considered that the start of Jesus’ public ministry *might *be the end of the Old Covenant because that was when Jesus taught, on his own authority, a standard which was higher than than the law of Moses, such as removing the conditions for divorce.
However, I agree with this answer…
In Ephesians, Paul says that through the cross Jesus both abolished “the law”, and ended the division between Jews and gentiles - which to me marks the end of the old covenant and the start of the new.
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
[Eph 2:11-22]
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That is not my question. My question is when in the New Testament does the New covenant replace the Old. Obviously there are Jews under the Old Law in the New Testament. John 1 for example goes all the way back to the beginning of creation. My question was when does the exact moment in time occur. I think the tearing of the veil is a good exact time…
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asd72
Guest
The Abrahamic covenant was not revoked but fulfilled with Jesus. God promised Abraham to bless all nations through his seed. Jesus was the seed that brought this blessing.
The Mosaic covenant was made null on the cross. Jesus poured out his blood, the blood of the New Covenant, and nailed the law ( this refers to the Mosaic covenant), to the cross.
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Cat
Guest
This is what we always grew up hearing in the Evangelical Protestant churches.
It makes sense. As long as the Temple veil was intact, the Old Covenant was in effect. But once this veil/curtain was ripped in two, the Old Covenant could no longer continue because the physical Temple was no longer intact and therefore not usable for the rituals of the Jewish priesthood.
Jesus had to die before the Old Covenant could end. It’s possible that He could have come to this earth, started His ministry, taught wonderful teachings, performed miracles, and then refused to suffer and die. He could have given in to Satan’s temptation and failed to die on the cross and redeem us. This would have meant that the only hope of redemption was the Law/Old Covenant. But Jesus DID die of His own free will, and this made redemption possible for sinful humans. The Old Covenant was no longer needed.
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Ignatius
Guest
I don’t know that it’s defined that precisely. Certainly the New and Everlasting Covenant is in place by Penticost.
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TheSeeker2014
Guest
are you talking general for for individuals?
I had always assumed esp during the time of Jesus’ life, it was whenever the person accept Christ for who he was…
if i remember right he told the theif on the cross he could go to heaven before any curtain ripped.
after christ assended… it was as soon as the individual Jews learned of Christ and either accepted or rejected. That is how I had always seen it.
Generally, I would say when Christ rose from the grave.
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pollycarp
Guest
I heard a Catholic bishop on the radio say the old covenant never ended, and that the jews were still the chosen people.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I think you may have misunderstood. Can you cite the bishop?I heard a Catholic bishop on the radio say the old covenant never ended, and that the jews were still the chosen people.
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TheSeeker2014
Guest
maybe he said it never ended because it was fulfilled in the “new covenant” and so the Jews are still a chosen people??I heard a Catholic bishop on the radio say the old covenant never ended, and that the jews were still the chosen people.
It is only called a new covenant because it was a point in history that it the covenant was fulfilled thus starting a new era
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pollycarp
Guest
I can’t locate the sermon I heard on the radio. I actually emailed them about it and they referred me to him, but I didn’t pursue it.
Anyway here is Jorge Bergolio saying the Jews are still the chosen people:
novusordowatch.org/wire/francis-jews-chosen-people.htm
Anyway here is Jorge Bergolio saying the Jews are still the chosen people:
novusordowatch.org/wire/francis-jews-chosen-people.htm
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Ugh, please do not link to sites like that!
I don’t understand, even if the Jews were still the chosen people what that has to do with saying the old covenant still is in effect.
Yes!
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pollycarp
Guest
If jews were still the chosen people, Peter and the apostles and all disciples would have remained jews and not been baptized. They wouldn’t have wanted to be the UNchosen people!
Since God is outside of time, maybe He still has that covenant with the jews, but I sure would prefer the fulfillment, the new covenant of love, mercy and forgiveness to the old one of eye for an eye, etc. And Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Himself.
Since God is outside of time, maybe He still has that covenant with the jews, but I sure would prefer the fulfillment, the new covenant of love, mercy and forgiveness to the old one of eye for an eye, etc. And Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Himself.
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pollycarp
Guest
Sites like theTruth?Ugh, please do not link to sites like that!
I don’t understand, even if the Jews were still the chosen people what that has to do with saying the old covenant still is in effect.
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