At what point is it a sin to pay taxes?

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jonesa25

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You hear often that cheating on your taxes is a sin. In fact, my priest said that from the pulpit just the other day. However, isn’t that traditional position predicated on a just government? Our government funds hundreds of thousands of abortions. The Senate just voted to fund stem-cell research. At what point is a Catholic obligated to not pay their taxes? Did Germans have to pay their taxes to the Nazi government? If the government becomes grossely unjust how is it any different than organized crime and the protection money they demand? Do you have to pay gangsters the money they demand to fund their murderous deeds?
 
I suggest the Catechism starting at 1897.

The government is the legitimate authority over us in the social order. It differs materially from “gangsters”.

Yes, we are obligated to pay taxes to the legitimately elected government.

We are also obligated to work for change via the democratic process for changes in laws and in those chosen to represent us.
 
Christ said to render unto Caesar what was Caesar’s and to God what was God’s when asked about taxes. Any understanding of the Roman Rule as exercised throughout the then known world would indicate that Christ did not require that Caesar be completely just before one owed taxes.

Hitler didn’t execute Christ; a Roman procurator did, in the name, effectively, of Rome as his actions were the official actions of a member of the Roman government.

If Christ did not require that the government be just before taxes were owed, then perhaps that should answer the question.
 
Oh, and as to paying gangsters the money they demand, no, you do not have to pay them. Just make sure your medical insurance is paid up, as you will need to use it.
 
Christ said to render unto Caesar what was Caesar’s and to God what was God’s when asked about taxes. Any understanding of the Roman Rule as exercised throughout the then known world would indicate that Christ did not require that Caesar be completely just before one owed taxes.
I understood that passage differently. I took it as a way of saying to the faithful in the audience “since everything belongs to God, give nothing to Caesar,” but in a way that wouldn’t get Him executed for treason.

No?
 
I understood that passage differently. I took it as a way of saying to the faithful in the audience “since everything belongs to God, give nothing to Caesar,” but in a way that wouldn’t get Him executed for treason.

No?
Yeah, you misunderstood then. You’re right everything ultimately belongs to God, but Jesus still wasn’t trying to say “give nothing unto Caesar”.
 
Grace & Peace!

I think Christ’s words re: rendering unto Caesar are well-taken here. Consider the story–he asked whose image was on the coin, and the inevitable conclusion was drawn–that the image on the money implied who actually owned it. It would be like someone holding up a coin with the word Mammon on it and saying–I love this so much, Jesus. What am I supposed to do with it when it’s owner comes for it? The subtext of Jesus’ statement reads: why would you love it so much? Why would you want to hold on to it so much? Give it back. Leave it alone.

Re: the general moral question of paying taxes–if you can work out how much of your money will go to infrastructure and how much will go to things you find distasteful, then I suppose you may have some moral ground to stand on for refusing to pay for the things you don’t like. But that moral ground is flimsy and shifty when you consider that you gladly use the infrastructure of the government that does things you hate. And you are therefore complicit in its atrocities because you benefit from the government that perpetrates them. So, really, even figuring out how much you’re willing to pay is problematic.

The only solutions are: 1–right use of protest and right use of the democratic process OR 2–leave the country and find one that suits you better.

Really, option one is the more moral option. Option two is just exchanging one evil for another–I forget who said, “Democracy is the best form of bad government.” But the implication is–all government is questionable–and all government must be questioned. Including the ones we claim to like, enjoy, or love.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
If Christ and Peter could morally pay taxes to the Roman government, we can morally pay taxes to our government.

Last I checked, even in its incompetence, the current administration has not crucified the Son of God.

Jeremy
 
I understood that passage differently. I took it as a way of saying to the faithful in the audience “since everything belongs to God, give nothing to Caesar,” but in a way that wouldn’t get Him executed for treason.

No?
No.

Go read that passage again; the Pharisees were trying to trap Him between the innate hostility of a good Jew to a conqueror, and the very real fact that they were an occupied nation and had to pay taxes. Paying taxes was seen as a Jewish offense (perhaps we would call it a sin today). The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus; pay the tax and you are Quisling, cooperating with the conqueror and thus violating the Chosen status of Jews; don’t pay the tax and they had evidence to turn Jesus over to the Romans. He very clearly said that paying money would not violate God’s rules. In no way did He say they should not pay taxes; He removed the paying of taxes from a violation of God’s rules.
 
Most of the people who have responded have responded with essentially the same argument on which I predicated my original question. I guess I should rephrase it. We are only morally obliged to pay taxes to the legitimate authority, right? so what distinguishes the legitimate from the illegitimate? Philosophically, what is the distinction between governments that derive their “right” to rule simply from the raw power they can weild, and gangsters? How can one distinguish between the two?
 
While I’m at it… Remember what St. Thomas Moore said: “the King’s loyal subject, but God’s first” (or something to that effect). When our obligations to God and our obligations to the state collide, we must obey the divine law. At what point are we obliged to be like St. Thomas Moore and refuse to act, in this case to pay, and to suffer the consequences? I am not obliged morally to shove Jews into a gas chamber simply because the government orders me to, right? Am I morally obliged to help them build the gas chamber? How about the railroad that ships the Jews to the camps? Where is the line drawn? In the current system the division of labor is such that my labor is not represented by the actual product of it, but by money. Money is action. Everything runs on money. That was not the case 1,000 let alone 2,000 years ago. By contributing money, I am contributing my daily work, am I not?
 
Generally, a gangster is only going to try to control a fairly narrow area - for example, the Mafia did not try to control through most governing functions; they controlled the flow of drugs and prostitution, and often would cover a fairly small range of businesses through “protection”. While they might own or control a garbage collection franchise, and they might try to influence the legitimate government in the area that was franchised to the garbage company, they did not attempt to actually be the government. They tried to influence the legitimate government through bribes and force for what they perceived was their needs, but they did not become the government. They were more like a sub-government.

The governing body will let you know who they are. Whether it is elected, as here, or elected through electors whom we choose, as here, or appointed by a king, or ruled by junta which is installed by an army, or chosen or established by some other means, you will know who they are.

As to cooperating with them, you might want to make a study of some of what has gone on in the last 40 to 50 years in Central America, as it has been a hotbed of regime change, often by the gun. Further, most of it was not established as clearly by a vote of the people, as “people”, those having the right to vote, was not universal.

The bottom line is that you can cooperate or pay the consequences, or join the armed opposition. That last option often is seen as highly romantic by the young and the uninitiated; which romance often lasts until the start of the first fire fight.

One can talk till one is blue in the face about the morality of paying taxes to a junta or military dictatorship. Morality is too often not particularly clear in the issue as there will be those who are very pro-government and those who are very anti-government, and it is less than easy to presume that one can say that either the existing government or the “loyal” (or not so loyal) opposition has the high ground in regards to morality.

Read about the Sandinistas; many painted them as heros of the poor and the working poor. The paint was a bit thin… which is not to say that what they sought to replace had any greater moral suasion.

The bottom line is that the use of the word “legitimate” is fraught with too many implications. The practical matter is that whoever is the government is the one you will pay your taxes to or pay the consequences. And the presumption that the opposition is going to be better is most often a fantasy-land dream.

If you will, quickly say who should be the government in Iraq - those who have been elected? And how is one to make a working government with groups who have literally centuries of history of being at each others’ throats? And if the elected coalition falls to the terrorists, will you then say that they, the terroroists, are not a legitimate government? At the risk literally of your life?

Or look at Afghanistan; we have replaced the Taliban with a series of tribal lords, again with the same history of killing and pillage over centuries, and the Taliban are back at it trying to regain control. They had a theocratic form of government; one that is more rigid than your wildest imagination, and many supported it. Which one is legitimate; or which one is more (or less) legitimate?

You are asking an esoteric question that is great for long philosophical discussions over a pint of good ale, and meaningless beyond the doors of the pub.

I have seen the era of the hippies - Luuuuuv one another, grow hair in your armpits and don’t shave or get a haircut, wear clothes that a rag picker would pass up, engage in tie-dye and candle making, wear sandals, eschew big business, form a commune and go macro-biotic in diet, smoke some dope, and Luuuuuv one another.

Communes seem to have fallen out of favor, in part because they either turned into a dictatorship (benevolent for the most part, but not all), or couldn’t make their collective group-grope form of decision making work because when it gets right down to the nitty gritty, the exteme majority of everyone else had a life.
 
So, what you’re saying is that there isn’t an answer to the question? Does paying your taxes then devolve to a personal prudential judgement concerning the legitimacy of the power demanded payment?
 
So, what you’re saying is that there isn’t an answer to the question? Does paying your taxes then devolve to a personal prudential judgement concerning the legitimacy of the power demanded payment?
I certainly have seen that happen; particularly among those who have wished to protest, for example, atomic weapons or the Viet Nam war.

It is just my personal opinion, but I do not find that a reliably effective way of protesting; and in spite of what is said about Federal Prisons being a country club, there are other rumors that they are not fun places to spend a significant amount of time occupying, particularly as an inmate.

In short, I find those who protest issues through non-payment of taxes to be engaged in a futile and rather infantile gesture of protest. Obviously they think differently.

In short, I don’t think that type of judgement is prudential, although those engaged in such acts of civil disobedience pass it off as such.

And were it to devolve to a protest by any and every individual who didn’t like the way government was doing such and such, most of it passed off as a morally based protest, we would shortly devolve into anarchy. Ultimately no one is served by that.
 
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