At which point does attraction become a sin?

[chevalier]

The teaching of the Church on this is 100% correct. I just don’t know what precisely it is and I’m at the end of my wits.

So, suppose you’re on a date or you are around someone attractive or something like that and you start feeling a bodily response (I’m trying to use nice language here). You neither seek nor accept it and it doesn’t present a challenge to your resolve not to have sex, not to fantasise and so on. What’s your obligation at that point? Do you need to stay completely in control of your thoughts but are allowed to continue the date or approach that person for a conversation and so on, as long as you control yourself, or do you need to eradicate the sensation at the cost of interrupting a date or not beginning a conversation with that person?

Or suppose you go on a dating site. You browse profiles, cards or whatever it is. Either there are no temptations or they present no serious challenge, but you become stimulated after a while from the mere exposure. Are you obligated to stop until the stimulation is totally gone from your system or are you only obligated to stop before it begins to be occasion of sin for you?

Basically, I know there is an obligation not to accept pleasure which is not lawful to have. I know there is an obligation to avoid occasion of sin. Knowing this, I still can’t solve this problem. I don’t know at which point happens a sin or near occasion here and when it becomes grave or mortal. I have trouble with grave matter here (lust is, occasion to mortal sin is, still can’t solve this), or consent (precisely I don’t know whether you consent to the sin of lust or to near occasion of sin if you start or continue a conversation or a date or something with a person if you are stimulated but you are neither thinking lustful thoughts nor facing a serious temptation to do so, nor seek or welcome that stimulation).

 

[Trishie]

To the first question

In order for temptation to become sin
a person must knowingly
and willingly
consent to something which they believe/know to be a sin.

God bless you

Temptation becomes sin (1) when it moves from desire to action.
(2) when the desire becomes a fixation

 

[chevalier]

Thanks. I know the definition of sin, but I didn’t look at it from the perspective of tempation moving into sin by either action or fixated desire. I think in this case we can’t speak about a fixated desire of any kind.

But I still have a problem with the part about possibly consenting to the stimulating by not interrupting the activity during which it occurred. Can it be said that in this example one consents by not stopping the date or conversation or other interaction?

 

[Trishie]

You’re human so you can’t avoid all occasions of possible attraction or you’d be totally paralysed. You choose to remain free of sin, but temptation is everywhere, anywhere.
The more a person worries about this issue the more he is likely to be assailed by temptation.

You’re human, and if you rush out when you are feeling attraction to someone you mightn’t ever get to know the girl who is right for you.

You’re 25…so I pray you’ll find a wonderful girl soon.

But even then, throughout life there is the possibility, probability you’ll find attractions. I guess we have to be as calm as possible and balanced about them. We can extricate ourself as gracefully as possible, and certainly never communicate inappropriate feelings to another, though if you’re dating someone you feel you’d like to share life with, they need to know they matter to you.

You do need to face these temptations with as much calm as possible because the truth is that as we’re human the potential for attraction will always be there. To give into it, to draw someone else into it, or to obsess over it, that’s the sin…but you know that…so all the best with coping with being a young man and a young Catholic.

May the Lord help you through the shoals that are there in the oceans we all cross.
I guess we should keep very much in touch with Jesus about it all,

 

[chevalier]

Thank you… Well, this all started when I was wondering at one point. Normally I didn’t have such trouble, but when I started involving moral theology into it, I noticed some things didn’t add up. I was supposing I ended up being scrupulous, but on the other hand I couldn’t reconstruct a reasonable rule. Sigh, it’s much easier when it’s not one’s own problems but an abstract situation.

 

[Trishie]

Thank you… Well, this all started when I was wondering at one point. Normally I didn’t have such trouble, but when I started involving moral theology into it, I noticed some things didn’t add up. I was supposing I ended up being scrupulous, but on the other hand I couldn’t reconstruct a reasonable rule. Sigh, it’s much easier when it’s not one’s own problems but an abstract situation.

I agree. Of course it is easier for someone else when it’s not their own problems. If I’d been the one asking the questions you have basically said what I did! Sometimes when we’re trying very sincerely to work out the truly right thing to do we can get tied up in knots. I did think into your problem from the all or nothing perspective, and in the end knew that like everybody else you, me, all of us are ‘stuck’ with being human and we have to find a sane path through the moral minefield if we’re to live in this world!

 

[TLM08]

You must recognize that your reaction to a pretty girl in your company is normal and perfectly natural. This is biology in action. You don’t have to be ashamed, …but don’t stand up in the restaurant and announce it either!


Just quietly sit there, place your napkin or your jacket in your lap as if to catch bread crumbs and inwardly thank God for making you a man!


Sex before marriage is immoral so don’t do anything with this girl that would make you want to pressure her into having sex. If you deliberately got aroused then I can see the sin in that. If it was an accident, then don’t worry about it. Dwelling on this will only make you miserable.


Somewhere there must be a happy medium between the drunken orgies that occur in frat houses all across the nation every weekend and the poor soul that sits at home alone on Saturday night because he innocently had a normal bodily response when spending time with his date the previous week.


A lot of young people wind up in those frat house orgies or full blown porn addications because either they were not taught moderation and self control, or they were locked into a rigid moral cage where the steam cooker full of sexual energy simply could no longer contain the pressure.They see no way out. When falling to temptation, and prayer isn’t providing the stopping power, young people should always choose the lesser of two evils.


Perfect chastity and virginity should be the goal of every unmarried person, but if that is not possible, I believe the sin of “solitary self-gratification” after the evening over and you’ve gone your separate ways to be the far better option than having sex with your date. If you find that you are doing this, then it is a matter for confession.


Avoiding porn shops, frat house orgies and impure women is a no brainer. No catholic man belongs in those environments. But don’t abandon a good catholic girl simply because you have fear of a normal physical response in her presence. If it happens, and she notices, simply laugh it off, excuse yourself with a simple apology. If she’s normal, she will inwardly appreciate the “compliment”… as well as your sense of humor and the apology.

 

[chevalier]

Yeah… In truth if you decide to go to Communion or Confession, moral theology isn’t all that helpful because during that deliberation we know more than we did when we were sinning (or not). On the other hand, can’t do it just on intuition. On intuition, I would count all of it as a venial sin, while after deliberation, I’m inclined to conclude that in some cases either no sin or mortal sin are both more likely than venial. Thankfully I no longer think I’m sinning if I feel something I don’t choose to feel or dwell on. If I started fantasising, I’d know how to classify it. But “in between”, I’m a dunce.

 

[chevalier]

You must recognize that your reaction to a pretty girl in your company is normal and perfectly natural. This is biology in action. You don’t have to be ashamed, …but don’t stand up in the restaurant and announce it either!

Errr… Yeah, but I still can’t accept that reaction as a nice little feeling that makes me feel good, at least as far as I remember Aquinas. From some priests’ words, I’m getting the impression that it might indeed be somewhat gradual, i.e. if you’re feeling something physical, you’re in the bad alley, but once you are “overwraught” or something like that, then you’re there.

What then with trying to attract someone? Say I want to attract a girl, or she wants to attract me. On the biological level, attraction is generally known by registering some arousal. But we know that causing arousal intentionally is sinful. But we also know that merely trying to attract someone, but not to seduce him into lustful sins, is not a sin. This leads to the impression that, gasp, causing a minimal degree of arousal is not a sin even when the act causing it is intentional. This sounds like a heresy.

Just quietly sit there, place your napkin or your jacket in your lap as if to catch bread crumbs and inwardly thank God for making you a man!

I typically try to cool down, say a short prayer, either for protection or in thanks for creating such a lovely girl and I move on since mere attraction is not always enough to make me even start a conversation. Obviously, when it seems I’m acting silly because I’m attracted, say, I am to some extent sexually stimulated by registering the presence of an attractive friend whom I have no intention of wooing, and I go and bring some coffee and start a conversation during a boring lecture in the university hall, then I am beginning to wonder. It’s obvious I’m acting on sex drive - at least from the biological point of view, but at the same time I have a problem seeing it as a sin that could get me into hell if the most daring act I pondered or did was a little flirting that didn’t involve a single sexual reference. In fact, I don’t think even the mediaeval people considered it so, or else knights would have worn penitential sacks instead of heraldic tabards.

Sex before marriage is immoral so don’t do anything with this girl that would make you want to pressure her into having sex.

Errr… I don’t go there even when I’m tipsy. It just doesn’t happen. No woman ever manages to make me want to have sex or imagine it in my mind. The most that happens is that I might make a decision to hug her or touch her arm or tell her a compliment out of attraction and not out of selfless appreciation or affection, or even because it feels good. At the latter point, I begin to question myself when it attaches to e.g. hugging an attractive girl rather than e.g. hugging Jane or Anne or whatever specific person with her own merits. But that’s rather rare. Most of the time I either act on a warm feeling (friendship or something) or out of no apparent motivation (which means I’m most likely motivated by physical attraction if I have no particular reason to feel close to that person). In the latter case, I start worrying. I can’t see mortal-level consent in it as a rule, even if there were matter, which I also doubt. But sometimes I know I’m not exhibiting a calm and collected act and something other than my brain is dictating the actions and that makes me look for a mortal sin in it.

 

[chevalier]

If you deliberately got aroused then I can see the sin in that. If it was an accident, then don’t worry about it. Dwelling on this will only make you miserable.

Yeah, that I know.

Somewhere there must be a happy medium between the drunken orgies that occur in frat houses all across the nation every weekend and the poor soul that sits at home alone on Saturday night because he innocently had a normal bodily response when spending time with his date the previous week.

No, I don’t have the latter kind of problem. I’m not that extreme. I do not ever hold myself culpable for experiencing a natural response or for doing something which was relatively innocent but caused it, nor do I lock myself away to prevent it from happening again. Far from that.

However, I begin to worry if the response I feel is strong and I don’t interrupt doing what I’m doing because what I’m doing is pleasant and interrupting it is not - even though it’s not pressuring me to have sex or to start thinking lustful things. Temptation to accept and enjoy that sensation is weak or very weak. However, I know I need to control my gaze or else it’s going to be a lustful look, i.e. “feeding” myself on that look and beginning to enjoy the arousal it causes, which is adultery in heart.

When falling to temptation, and prayer isn’t providing the stopping power, young people should always choose the lesser of two evils.

When they have the capacity to choose, they should never choose a sin. Masturbation may be a lesser evil than premarital sex, but that’s like wondering whether to use contraception when one is having premarital sex. If one has the power to decide to masturbate, one has the power to decide neither to masturbate nor to have premarital sex, but to abstain from any action. This is the same what one would be doing in face of a tempter or temptress when wanting to stay pure but being unable to avoid exposure (e.g. a prostitute sent to seduce a bound POW).

Willingly masturbating is always succumbing to temptation and a sin, and one sin isn’t a good tool of combating the danger of another sin.

Perfect chastity and virginity should be the goal of every unmarried person, but if that is not possible, I believe the sin of “solitary self-gratification” after the evening over and you’ve gone your separate ways to be the far better option than having sex with your date. If you find that you are doing this, then it is a matter for confession.

No danger of that for me, never done that. If one were so hard-pressed as to lose his control completely and be pressed between sex and masturbation, one should go the third way and lock himself home until it goes away. It is never a good thing to do one evil to avoid a bigger evil.

But don’t abandon a good catholic girl simply because you have fear of a normal physical response in her presence.

Nothing like that. As I said, I don’t have a problem with normal bodily reactions, but with determining what precisely we have to do when arousal occurs, i.e. either merely to avoid giving in to temptations to have or imagine having sex, or to take any steps in our disposal, including interrupting or not initiating a conversation or some other form of interaction, in order to eradicate the sensation of arousal. But succumbing to one sin to avoid another is not an option. I think it’s better when one succumbs to a greater temptation after fighting (i.e. one is defeated by the temptation) than when one does a lesser evil to avoid that bigger temptation (i.e. any capitulates before temptation).

 

[katerisouthern]

I have read this thread with interest and have some thoughts to add. After dealing with a mutual attraction to a neighbor this entire year, someone I cannot avoid because it would cause me to abandon my entire life as our children are the same ages and at the same school… same activities, etc…I have learned a lot about “going with the flow” of feelings when in the midst of temptation…bearing it with the hope and prayer that it will soon pass.

I have been married 10 years, and it is the first time that I have ever been truly tempted to have an affair.
I feel that God is letting me, as well as this other person, learn to “order the passions” and that it is a struggle that is ultimately good for the soul…when one is victorious over it, of course.

I have found that the devil will torment me that any thought that enters my mind is enough to keep me from daily Communion. Many times, my thoughts are involuntary…like I will wake up in the morning and this person’s face will be in my mind and I will have a nice “warm and fuzzy” feeling about them. That couldn’t really be sin coming from me, but a temptation from the Devil.

The Devil wants us to doubt ourselves and wants us to feel unworthy to sit in the presence of God. Of course, none of us are truly ever worthy of God… but these types of temptations and confusions over limits are the types of things that can really get a wedge in their between you and God.

I have decided that if I chase/swat thoughts away as quickly as possible…that God does not consider it a grave sin on my part that would make me so stained that I would not be able to approach the altar without reconciation…God has let me know that I need Communion with him so that I can get through this…if I am fighting it… why would He want me to stay away?

I think that is really what these thoughts are about and the over analysis that can occur is exactly what the Devil wants us to be doing. Man, if you have to take a few deep breaths and the feeling doesn’t just leave you right away… I don’t think that is sinful. You have to consider the feelings of the other person as well… If you just abruptly excuse yourself every time this happens, you could create a social hangup for yourself, as well as cause misunderstanding with the friend…You could leave them with a “what did I do wrong” feeling.

Sometimes I feel in awe of this person I have an attraction to… that they are so beautiful body and soul… they look so needy…that I wish I could help them … but then it is over and I go about trying to entertain prayerful thoughts that wish him and his wife well.

I try to go to confession every 2 weeks. I try to make sure that my prayers for the happiness of this individual’s family and an effort to better my own marriage outweigh any time spent on lust or other such selfish thoughts.
If you see that you have such a balance, you can know that you are on the right track, at least. I hope this sounds sane. It is the first time I have ever expressed this.

 

[TLM08]

I have read this thread with interest and have some thoughts to add. After dealing with a mutual attraction to a neighbor this entire year, someone I cannot avoid because it would cause me to abandon my entire life as our children are the same ages and at the same school… same activities, etc…I have learned a lot about “going with the flow” of feelings when in the midst of temptation…bearing it with the hope and prayer that it will soon pass.

I have been married 10 years, and it is the first time that I have ever been truly tempted to have an affair.
I feel that God is letting me, as well as this other person, learn to “order the passions” and that it is a struggle that is ultimately good for the soul…when one is victorious over it, of course.

I have found that the devil will torment me that any thought that enters my mind is enough to keep me from daily Communion. Many times, my thoughts are involuntary…like I will wake up in the morning and this person’s face will be in my mind and I will have a nice “warm and fuzzy” feeling about them. That couldn’t really be sin coming from me, but a temptation from the Devil.

The Devil wants us to doubt ourselves and wants us to feel unworthy to sit in the presence of God. Of course, none of us are truly ever worthy of God… but these types of temptations and confusions over limits are the types of things that can really get a wedge in their between you and God.

I have decided that if I chase/swat thoughts away as quickly as possible…that God does not consider it a grave sin on my part that would make me so stained that I would not be able to approach the altar without reconciation…God has let me know that I need Communion with him so that I can get through this…if I am fighting it… why would He want me to stay away?

I think that is really what these thoughts are about and the over analysis that can occur is exactly what the Devil wants us to be doing. Man, if you have to take a few deep breaths and the feeling doesn’t just leave you right away… I don’t think that is sinful. You have to consider the feelings of the other person as well… If you just abruptly excuse yourself every time this happens, you could create a social hangup for yourself, as well as cause misunderstanding with the friend…You could leave them with a “what did I do wrong” feeling.

Sometimes I feel in awe of this person I have an attraction to… that they are so beautiful body and soul… they look so needy…that I wish I could help them … but then it is over and I go about trying to entertain prayerful thoughts that wish him and his wife well.

I try to go to confession every 2 weeks. I try to make sure that my prayers for the happiness of this individual’s family and an effort to better my own marriage outweigh any time spent on lust or other such selfish thoughts.
If you see that you have such a balance, you can know that you are on the right track, at least. I hope this sounds sane. It is the first time I have ever expressed this.

As a red blooded American Male having been married to a good woman for many years, I have committed mental sins against purity outnumbing the grains of sand in the world’s oceans!

As I grow older, I have learned that a great strategy to combat these thoughts is to put the object of my desire in a “reframed” perspective. I’ll imagine that the attractive, sharp dressed divorced woman who is friendy with me at work and invades my midnight dreams from time to time most likely has morning breath that would knock a buzzard off a garbage wagon. She probably keeps a dirty house, is materialistic, shallow, has a social disease, a bad temper and massive credit card debt! And her jealous ex-husband has a been arrested 12 times in the last 5 years for felonious assault, criminal damaging and public intoxication .

That plate of dark double chocolate chip brownies doesn’t look so good after they’ve been sprayed with a quick shot of WD-40


In other words, I now focus on the flaws of people I find physically and (or) emotionally attractive. I’ll even make some imaginary flaws to help me combat temptation all the while focusing on the blessings that my wife has brought to my life. Every day, I also try to remind myself how blessed I am that God has sent her to be my wife.

The above strategies have worked great not only to keep me faithful, but have really helped me to stop sinful fantasizing.

 

[chevalier]

Experience teaches grass is greener on the other side. Almost everyone has burdensome qualities which unveil only in closer contact. We are supposed to presume the best of other people, but we don’t know them in the full light. Attraction generally wanes in time once we begin to get a closer look and once we gain more access to the person - if we focus on what’s attractive. On the other hand, looking with love gives a whole new dimension to “pretty” - sometimes people don’t really notice a friend as an attractive man or woman until they fall in love.

 

[AndyF]

chevalier:

Good questions.

I’m still trying to understand how King Solomon managed the wife 2 to 50 gauntlet without having once stepping on at least one mortal sin in the process. Then, …he gets to have his own material pertaining to sexual conduct and restraint printed in Scripture . Talk about pulling rabbits out of hats.



Andy

 

[katerisouthern]

As a red blooded American Male having been married to a good woman for many years, I have committed mental sins against purity outnumbing the grains of sand in the world’s oceans!

As I grow older, I have learned that a great strategy to combat these thoughts is to put the object of my desire in a “reframed” perspective. I’ll imagine that the attractive, sharp dressed divorced woman who is friendy with me at work and invades my midnight dreams from time to time most likely has morning breath that would knock a buzzard off a garbage wagon. She probably keeps a dirty house, is materialistic, shallow, has a social disease, a bad temper and massive credit card debt! And her jealous ex-husband has a been arrested 12 times in the last 5 years for felonious assault, criminal damaging and public intoxication .

That plate of dark double chocolate chip brownies doesn’t look so good after they’ve been sprayed with a quick shot of WD-40


In other words, I now focus on the flaws of people I find physically and (or) emotionally attractive. I’ll even make some imaginary flaws to help me combat temptation all the while focusing on the blessings that my wife has brought to my life. Every day, I also try to remind myself how blessed I am that God has sent her to be my wife.

The above strategies have worked great not only to keep me faithful, but have really helped me to stop sinful fantasizing.

I have to admit, that your post made me laugh out loud. Thank you. I tried out your technique with the person who is distracting to me. Now that I tried it, I feel imagining bad things about them could be sinful, too…because I am in a sense slandering them in my mind. Have you ever thought about this??

As a woman, I haven’t typically had problems with attraction. So, in this particular case, I find this person as someone who is playing an important part in my salvation because he is forcing me to struggle and grow spiritually in a way that I didn’t have to in the past. I feel that I understand men better… and that I can be a better wife now.

Somewhere in the Catechism, it says “Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor.” That is what I’m working on/ trying to figure out here…If you have to have periodic contact with someone, and you have an attraction to them, how do you keep it a Christian, “love your neighbor”, kindof thing without really ending up having the wrong type of love (i.e. lust)?

I’m glad that you have a wonderful wife. I can see how getting the right kind of attention and care at home can deter an entire host of sinful options. Too many women don’t take their role as wife serious enough.

 

[TLM08]

I have to admit, that your post made me laugh out loud. Thank you. I tried out your technique with the person who is distracting to me. Now that I tried it, I feel imagining bad things about them could be sinful, too…because I am in a sense slandering them in my mind. Have you ever thought about this??

As a woman, I haven’t typically had problems with attraction. So, in this particular case, I find this person as someone who is playing an important part in my salvation because he is forcing me to struggle and grow spiritually in a way that I didn’t have to in the past. I feel that I understand men better… and that I can be a better wife now.

Somewhere in the Catechism, it says “Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor.” That is what I’m working on/ trying to figure out here…If you have to have periodic contact with someone, and you have an attraction to them, how do you keep it a Christian, “love your neighbor”, kindof thing without really ending up having the wrong type of love (i.e. lust)?

I’m glad that you have a wonderful wife. I can see how getting the right kind of attention and care at home can deter an entire host of sinful options. Too many women don’t take their role as wife serious enough.

Don’t worry about “mental slander”… All you are doing is protecting your heart. I’ve had to do this on occasion with co-workers who like to flirt and play. The important thing is to know where to draw the line… ahead of time! I treat these women, many of whom are much younger and quite attractive, just as I would my sister. I can have a good laugh or even a few drinks if out with a group (never alone). Like I said, you have to know where to draw the line.

This is all part of life. You gotta recognize that biology is going to provide a certain amount of sexual energy to these situations whether you want it or not. It’s our responsibility not to let Satan take advantage of this.

 

[SeekingHeaven]

To answer one of your questions about intentionally trying to attract someone:

You don’t have to attract them with your body. You can attract a person by your works, intelligence, humor, and so forth. There is more to a person than their body.

 

[chevalier]

To answer one of your questions about intentionally trying to attract someone:

You don’t have to attract them with your body. You can attract a person by your works, intelligence, humor, and so forth. There is more to a person than their body.

Sexual attraction remains sexual attraction regardless what causes it. And then the reaction which the body causes is either sexual or merely aesthetical and there’s no problem whatsoever in the latter. Surely intelligence and wit are capable of causing a certain level of sexual stimulation much the same as an attractive body is. While the intellectual may be less base than the bodily, the sexual response in the person we target is biologically the same unless we simply present qualities which make us look like a desirable spouse. Things being so, I suppose this might be misleading and there might be other ways of discerning what’s right and what’s wrong here.

 

[SeekingHeaven]

Sexual attraction remains sexual attraction regardless what causes it. And then the reaction which the body causes is either sexual or merely aesthetical and there’s no problem whatsoever in the latter. Surely intelligence and wit are capable of causing a certain level of sexual stimulation much the same as an attractive body is. While the intellectual may be less base than the bodily, the sexual response in the person we target is biologically the same unless we simply present qualities which make us look like a desirable spouse. Things being so, I suppose this might be misleading and there might be other ways of discerning what’s right and what’s wrong here.

Sexual attraction is always sexual attraction, I agree, but if that is the only quality you are looking for in a person then either you or that person doesn’t have much substance to begin with and I hardly see a serious, marital relationship that is only based on attraction and sex to be long-lasting.

In my opinion, when I look for a nice girl to be involved with, the last thing I am looking for in her is that she dresses provocatively and gets all attention on her from everyone on the street. I look for if a girl has intelligence, manners, morals, religion, opinions, personality. Looks of course are important, but secondary.

Still don’t believe that about sexual attraction? I don’t mean to sound rude or anything, but let’s be real. How many times have you been out and you’ve seen a very homely, not-so-good looking man out on a date or married to a gorgeous woman and think to yourself, “Why on earth is she with him!?” or vice versa? Obviously people’s tastes differ, but there is more to a person than what they look like on the outside!

 

[chevalier]

Sexual attraction is always sexual attraction, I agree, but if that is the only quality you are looking for in a person then either you or that person doesn’t have much substance to begin with and I hardly see a serious, marital relationship that is only based on attraction and sex to be long-lasting.

Of course. But of that there’s no doubt. What I’m looking at, here, is perhaps a bit academic discussion as to where exactly things stop being neutral and start being wrong. In the past years, they would say a sexual sensation (understood as genital simulation) would become a sin when accepted by the person sensing it. This doesn’t really answer much in the present day when we are generally able to tell that any such response is sexual. Obviously, we don’t sin if we are attracted to someone. This goes back to the problem of acceptance. At some point if we experience a bodily response of some strength, and we don’t do something about it, we probably sin. This can be looked at from the point of view of occasion of sin, where the sin is either doing something sexual or fantasising in one’s mind about sex. If the response of your body is strong enough to put you in serious temptation, then it becomes occasion and you need to flee it. This sounds reasonable, but it leaves out the problem of the stimulation that occurs without being sought, or even with being sought - in a minor degree.

The problem I see here is that attraction is generally the same sensation as arousal. You notice you are attracted because your body responds with a degree of simulation, just a minuscule one. But to say that some degree of it would be fine and some not looks a bit situational and relative and relativism is, well, not the answer to moral problems.

In my opinion, when I look for a nice girl to be involved with, the last thing I am looking for in her is that she dresses provocatively and gets all attention on her from everyone on the street. I look for if a girl has intelligence, manners, morals, religion, opinions, personality. Looks of course are important, but secondary.

None of us here would like to marry a person who dresses provocatively, but we aren’t talking about looks here - we’re talking about attraction and other responses of the body. Your response stays the same whether it’s caused by the girl’s body or some other quality she has. It’s not like any form of appreciation of the body is necessarily sexual and it’s not like any form of appreciation of something else is not. For example, you can be aroused by her intelligence or wit, while you can at the same time be appreciating her looks on purely aesthetic terms. Such a stark configuration would be unlikely to happen in real life, but it’s possible. My point is to leave looks and other qualities alone, but to concentrate on the response which we either experience or cause other people to experience.

Still don’t believe that about sexual attraction? I don’t mean to sound rude or anything, but let’s be real. How many times have you been out and you’ve seen a very homely, not-so-good looking man out on a date or married to a gorgeous woman and think to yourself, “Why on earth is she with him!?” or vice versa? Obviously people’s tastes differ, but there is more to a person than what they look like on the outside!

Outside or inside, it doesn’t change the nature of the response registered organically by the person who is being attracted. Sexual responses aren’t triggered by looks specifically. Sexual responses are triggered by anything which attracts us and, strictly speaking, they can even be causes by imaginations of glory and fame and wealth, without any human person being in the picture. In this thread, I’m not at all discussing what causes the sensation (stimulation if you want to call it by name), but what happens when the stimulation is already there. The conclusion that one can’t revel in it or act on a desire to make it stay or amplify it, is easy.

What’s less easy is e.g. 1) to what extent double effect covers situations when you experience a degree of stimulation, which you don’t seek or accept, 2) where does consent to stimulation begin (i.e. seeking it is consent, welcoming it is consent, tolerating it is tricky). This has nothing to do with what we look for in a person. The significance of this relies on whether we sin or not in practical situations that occur in our lives. What attribute of the person (looks, intelligence, words, specific actions) causes the stimulation is immaterial.

In practical examples, e.g. a doctor’s examination is covered by double effect (#1). Performing any necessary action or action which brings some signicant benefit to the receiver will generally be covered (obviously given the premise that any possible stimulation of the actor is a side-effect and not intended). Social situations are less clear because there is no such tangible benefit. As for #2, i.e. when tolerance becomes consent, I’d say if you don’t look for it or welcome it, but you ignore it, then you are not consenting. However, this could lead to absurd results at times. We can’t say, “it’s just my body reacting, my mind is not there and I’m thinking about something else, so I won’t be leaving the room.” This is basically the reason why I’m looking for some answers with which to avoid relativism.

I think I should have made the opening post more detailed and the title clearer.