Atheism and Agnosticism

[Holly3278]

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Atheism:

Atheism
2123 "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

58 GS 19 § 1.
59 GS 20 § 2.
60 GS 20 § 2.
61 Cf. Rom 1:18.
62 GS 19 § 3.
63 Cf. GS 20 § 1.
64 GS 21 § 3.
65 GS 21 § 7.

And here is what it has to say about Agnosticism:

Agnosticism
2127 Agnosticism assumes a number of forms. In certain cases the agnostic refrains from denying God; instead he postulates the existence of a transcendent being which is incapable of revealing itself, and about which nothing can be said. In other cases, the agnostic makes no judgment about God’s existence, declaring it impossible to prove, or even to affirm or deny.

2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.

So, Atheists and Agnostics, how and why do you disagree with what the Catechism has to say about your belief system? Also, which points (please tell us which paragraph) do you disagree with and why?

 

[Call_Me_V]

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Atheism:

And here is what it has to say about Agnosticism:

So, Atheists and Agnostics, how and why do you disagree with what the Catechism has to say about your belief system? Also, which points (please tell us which paragraph) do you disagree with and why?

Well, I disagree with most of it. The key issue is that it assumes the existence of God which I consider to be false. The fact of the matter is, if God does exist, then everything that the Catechism says about us atheists is true, and if he doesn’t exist, then most (though not all) of the stuff that the Catechism says about us false. There’s no real point in me showing which sections I disagree with when every one of the disagreements stems from a disagreement about the existence of God.

That being said, it does make some good points. For example, I liked how it pointed out that agnosticism is pretty much just Atheism by a different name. I’ve come to the same conclusion, that agnosticism is, 99% of the time, just Atheism that doesn’t want to admit that it’s Atheism (which is why I stopped calling myself agnostic, and started calling myself an Atheist). So I definitely agree with parts of it, regardless of whether God exists, but the the truth value of the majority of the stuff that it says about atheists hinges on God’s existence.

Hope that answers your question,
V

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Obviously God exists. I’d like to know why others don’t think so…

 

[Call_Me_V]

Obviously God exists. I’d like to know why others don’t think so…

I don’t want to derail this thread, but if you’d like to start a new thread on why we don’t believe in God, I’ll happily go into great detail as to why I don’t find the arguments for God’s existence persuasive. Just make the argument for God’s existence that you find most persuasive, and I’ll be more than happy to say why I don’t buy it.

V

 

[Mr_Sun]

I have no problem with Atheists except when they try and remove religious practices from the state. State and church should not mix (that’s what you want to hear) but its TRADITION.

back on topic: I could have not explained this view any better myself. I feel it left out some major parts about SOMETHING but I just cant put my finger on it.

 

[Julian0404]

I don’t want to derail this thread, but if you’d like to start a new thread on why we don’t believe in God, I’ll happily go into great detail as to why I don’t find the arguments for God’s existence persuasive. Just make the argument for God’s existence that you find most persuasive, and I’ll be more than happy to say why I don’t buy it.

V

I know HIM, I spend time with HIM, I have a relationship with HIM.

 

[Call_Me_V]

I know HIM, I spend time with HIM, I have a relationship with HIM.

Yes. And Muslims have claim to have a personal relationship with Allah, the followers of Sai Baba have to have a personal relationship with him, etc. etc. the list goes on for all religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on and so on. They’ve all experienced their different Gods on a personal level. It makes it seem extremely unlikely to me that our “personal feelings” have any relationship to what’s actually true.

V

 

[Flame4]

Yes. And Muslims have claim to have a personal relationship with Allah, the followers of Sai Baba have to have a personal relationship with him, etc. etc. the list goes on for all religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on and so on. They’ve all experienced their different Gods on a personal level. It makes it seem extremely unlikely to me that our “personal feelings” have any relationship to what’s actually true.

V

Yes, but they still interact with God.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

They have a realtionship with God, only we believe it is not complete (they have not realized the full truth.) Therefore the fact that others have a relatioship with God, even if not in full truth, is more affirmation that God does exist.

 

[Call_Me_V]

Yes, but they still interact with God.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

They have a realtionship with God, only we believe it is not complete (they have not realized the full truth.) Therefore the fact that others have a relatioship with God, even if not in full truth, is more affirmation that God does exist.

So the fact that they receive visions that directly contradict Catholicism doesn’t bother you? If these experiences were really just incomplete relationships with the Catholic God, why would the Catholic God tell them things that directly contradict Catholicism? I’ve read many accounts of vivid visions by Muslims, Buddhists, and so on who interact with their God, and the God that they interact with confirms their belief in their own religion, it doesn’t lead them towards Catholicism. It seems more likely that these religious experiences are some kind of self deception or hallucination than that the same God is sending out contradictory messages.

V

 

[joplee]

So the fact that they receive visions that directly contradict Catholicism doesn’t bother you? If these experiences were really just incomplete relationships with the Catholic God, why would the Catholic God tell them things that directly contradict Catholicism? I’ve read many accounts of vivid visions by Muslims, Buddhists, and so on who interact with their God, and the God that they interact with confirms their belief in their own religion, it doesn’t lead them towards Catholicism. It seems more likely that these religious experiences are some kind of self deception or hallucination than that the same God is sending out contradictory messages.

V

V,

I have read some of your posts and I find your arguments well thought out and written. I have found you to be quite charitable even though you offer opinions that differ substantially from most posters on this site.

I don’t want to derail this thread but I will just add this. As a Catholic, these “contradictions” don’t bother me at all, in fact, I would expect nothing less. You see, we are in spiritual warfare. The enemy will stop at nothing to degrade, nullify, soften, and weaken, the Truth. You are correct that God does not send contradictory messages; however, His message can and is distorted. If His message can be distorted, how can we know the Truth? This is the very reason why Christ established the Church. You see,not even the gates of hell will prevail against it.

I agree that there is a lot of self deception, even among Catholics. We want to make our own “truths”, that fit into how we view the world. It makes us feel better.

 

[Holly3278]

So the fact that they receive visions that directly contradict Catholicism doesn’t bother you? If these experiences were really just incomplete relationships with the Catholic God, why would the Catholic God tell them things that directly contradict Catholicism? I’ve read many accounts of vivid visions by Muslims, Buddhists, and so on who interact with their God, and the God that they interact with confirms their belief in their own religion, it doesn’t lead them towards Catholicism. It seems more likely that these religious experiences are some kind of self deception or hallucination than that the same God is sending out contradictory messages.

V

The “Catholic God” does not give these people these visions. Satan does.

 

[Call_Me_V]

The “Catholic God” does not give these people these visions. Satan does.

And they will claim that their visions are genuine and that Catholic visions are satanic. And so it goes on.

That is precisely my point. We can all agree that many religious experiences are deceptive. I personally think that it’s likely psychological, most Catholics would, like you, probably attribute it to Satan or something along those lines. But even if someone considers some of these religious visions (such as only the Catholic visions) to be genuine, they would still have to concede that the vast majority of these religious experiences (such as Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu visions, for example) are deceptive, and therefore religious experiences are not trustworthy ways of obtaining the truth. The religious experiences of Muslims should not be considered evidence for the truth of Islam, the religious experiences of Buddhists should not be considered evidence for the truth of Buddhism, and, unfortunately, the religious experiences of Catholics should not be considered evidence for the truth of Catholicism. Quite simply, whether you want to attribute them to psychological factors or satanic spirits, there are a lot of religious experiences that lead in the complete opposite direction of truth. Therefore, an argument from religious experiences (especially someone else’s religious experiences) is inherently flawed.

I have read some of your posts and I find your arguments well thought out and written. I have found you to be quite charitable even though you offer opinions that differ substantially from most posters on this site.

Awww, thanks

I don’t want to derail this thread but I will just add this. As a Catholic, these “contradictions” don’t bother me at all, in fact, I would expect nothing less. You see, we are in spiritual warfare. The enemy will stop at nothing to degrade, nullify, soften, and weaken, the Truth. You are correct that God does not send contradictory messages; however, His message can and is distorted. If His message can be distorted, how can we know the Truth? This is the very reason why Christ established the Church. You see,not even the gates of hell will prevail against it.

Unfortunately, the other religions will happily claim that their visions and religious experiences are the genuine ones, and that the Catholic religious experiences are distortions. And for us skeptics, there is no reason to believe them over you, or vice versa. That is why religious experiences cannot be considered trustworthy sources of information, because, no matter how you view it, there’s a lot of religious experiences out there that lead to mutually contradictory conclusions.

I agree that there is a lot of self deception, even among Catholics. We want to make our own “truths”, that fit into how we view the world. It makes us feel better.

Absolutely. It’s prevalent among all groups, I’ve seen too many self deceived atheists too count. I myself am probably self deceived about many things, but unfortunately, I have no way of knowing how to determine what those things are. I’ve learned that all I can do is present my views to those who disagree, and hopefully if I’m wrong, they can show why I’m wrong, and hopefully if I am wrong, I won’t be too hard headed to admit it

V

 

[Julian0404]

Yes. And Muslims have claim to have a personal relationship with Allah, the followers of Sai Baba have to have a personal relationship with him, etc. etc. the list goes on for all religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on and so on. They’ve all experienced their different Gods on a personal level. It makes it seem extremely unlikely to me that our “personal feelings” have any relationship to what’s actually true.

V

Your comment explains your atheism. I never once mentioned that my knowing, spending time and relationship with JESUS was from “feelings”, you interjected that into the arguement. Clearly from your lack of belief, then Jesus cannot be real and must somehow be an “emotion”, or “feeling”. I tell you my knowing, spending time and relationship with JESUS is because HE is real and not a feeling or emotion.
You cannot have a relationship with a “feeling or emotion”.
In your future, when all is lost, call out to HIM, and HE will save you.

 

[Newbie2]

Yes. And Muslims have claim to have a personal relationship with Allah, the followers of Sai Baba have to have a personal relationship with him, etc. etc. the list goes on for all religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on and so on. They’ve all experienced their different Gods on a personal level. It makes it seem extremely unlikely to me that our “personal feelings” have any relationship to what’s actually true.

V

Different “Gods”, or a different (and incomplete as we Catholics might say) experience of the same God?

 

[Call_Me_V]

I tell you my knowing, spending time and relationship with JESUS is because HE is real and not a feeling or emotion.

And the other religions will tell you exactly the same thing. The have a relationship with ALLAH because HE is real and not a feeling or emotion. They are just as confident in their special relationship with Allah as you are about your relationship with Jesus.

You cannot have a relationship with a “feeling or emotion”.

No, but you can think that you have a relationship with someone when you actually do not.

In your future, when all is lost, call out to HIM, and HE will save you.

Unfortunately, I have too many real people in my life who have helped me through my rough times to ever become desperate enough to believe in a magic, invisible friend that will help me through my problems.

Different “Gods”, or a different (and incomplete as we Catholics might say) experience of the same God?

They’ve experienced what they consider to be an experience of their God. Now I think they’re wrong, and I think that these religious experiences are deceptive, as I argued in an earlier post.

V

 

[AndrewA]

And the other religions will tell you exactly the same thing. The have a relationship with ALLAH because HE is real and not a feeling or emotion. They are just as confident in their special relationship with Allah as you are about your relationship with Jesus.
V

I would just like to point out that "ALLAH " is the same God that we Catholics worship.

 

[Call_Me_V]

I would just like to point out that "ALLAH " is the same God that we Catholics worship.

Then why, when these Muslims interact with him, does he point them in the direction of Islam? If Catholicism is really true, an all good God would not intentionally lead people into an untrue religion like Islam, would he? But that is exactly what happens, Muslims have visions of Allah, or Muhammad, or even Jesus and Mary (who are both important figures in Islam as well) and these visions continually point them in the direction of Islam.

In any case, there are equally compelling religious experiences in Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. so the fact that the three Abrahamic religions share the same God doesn’t negate my overall point, I was just using Islam as an example.

V

 

[Newbie2]

They’ve experienced what they consider to be an experience of their God. Now I think they’re wrong, and I think that these religious experiences are deceptive, as I argued in an earlier post.

V

I agree that such experiences may be deceptive, but how do we know if it’s an experience with the One True God in an (incomplete, disordered or whatever term suffices) way?

 

[AntiTheist]

Obviously God exists. I’d like to know why others don’t think so…

Because there is no good evidence for the existence of any god – yours or anyone else’s.

And obviously, it’s not obvious. If it were, we wouldn’t be having the discussion.

Mr. Sun:

I have no problem with Atheists except when they try and remove religious practices from the state. State and church should not mix (that’s what you want to hear) but its TRADITION.

Here in America, it’s against the Constitution for the government to support one religion over another. Now, individuals are certainly free to believe whatever they like, publicly preach whatever they like on street corners, hang up signs on their private property, buy ads in public spaces promoting whatever beliefs they like, etc. It’s simply that public institutions cannot show deference to any particular religion. So, for example, it’s perfectly fine for kids to pray in public schools or for student prayer-groups to meet after-school, but teacher-led mandatory official prayer cannot be allowed in public schools.

V’s responses to the rest of the points on this thread have been excellent.

 

[Call_Me_V]

I agree that such experiences may be deceptive, but how do we know if it’s an experience with the One True God in an (incomplete, disordered or whatever term suffices) way?

We don’t, unfortunately. We have absolutely no way of knowing if someone else’s individual, subjective experience was really contact with the divine or not. There’s simply no way to tell, which is why it can’t really be counted as evidence in an argument.

V