Atheism, and ignoring Jesus

  • Thread starter Thread starter Gump
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that “God answers prayers” is an illusion created by human imagination.
How do you, prodigal, discover that “answered prayers” are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:
  • It does not matter who prays.
  • It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra, etc.
  • It does not matter what we pray about.
    If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single “answered prayer” is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.
    For example (here’s your ‘proof’), this article says:
    One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments.
    And: A review of 17 past studies of ‘‘distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.
    This article from March, 2006 discusses the fact that the same conclusion was reached in another study:
    In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
    In this article we find an amazing quote where theologians and religious leaders declare that prayer has no actual effect: Religious leaders will breathe a sigh of relief at the news that so-called intercessory prayer is medically ineffective. In a large and much touted scientific study, one group of patients was told that strangers would pray for them, a second group was told strangers might or might not pray for them, and a third group was not prayed for at all. The $2.4 million study found that the strangers’ prayers did not help patients’ recovery.
    This is a remarkable example of “positive spin” – religious leaders are “breathing a sigh of relief” because prayer has been shown to be meaningless. The fact that prayer is a total waste of time does not matter to them. It does not matter that all of Jesus’s promises about praying and such in the Bible have been proven completely false.
To be fair in my argument (and less ignorant than you seem to throw around) a peer-reviewed scientific study published in 2001 did indicate that prayer works. According to this article:
“On October 2, 2001, the New York Times reported that researchers at prestigious Columbia University Medical Center in New York had discovered something quite extraordinary. Using virtually foolproof scientific methods the researchers had demonstrated that infertile women who were prayed for by Christian prayer groups became pregnant twice as often as those who did not have people praying for them. The study was published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine. Even the researchers were shocked. The study’s results could only be described as miraculous.”
This study was later proven to be completely fraudulent. However, everyone who cut out the original article in the NYTimes and posted it on their refrigerators still has that article as “proof” that prayer works. This article entitled A prayer before dying uncovers another case where a “scientific study” of prayer is unmasked as fraudulent.

It’s not just prayer that is ineffective. Not even a hopeful attitude helps. According to this article:
A positive attitude does not improve the chances of surviving cancer and doctors who encourage patients to keep up hope may be burdening them, according to the results of research released Monday.
The dictionary defines the word “superstition” in this way:
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. ref]
I’ve tried to be more unbiased in my views as well as providing references to most of my points.
This seems to be a logical fallacy where you use a method of science to disprove something that does not go inside methods of science.

There is a need for a lot better argumentation then this to disprove prayer and God. Especially given that in the bible humans ask God to give them a sign and he says you have been given a sign and you do not believe so why would you believe if give you a new sign you would find a better explanation for it.

This is science which does not want to find out the truth but has the truth already and wants to find out evidence for it.
 
Hello Gump

This statement is true. Jesus Plainly said in the gospels if you pray it will be answered.

But, prayers are not answered. I don’t see how one could come to any other conclusion. Jesus lied.

les
Jesus also said that if you pray in faith you get what you asked for. When asked how can human believe like that he said humans cannot only God can. I think that answers your questions sufficiently.
 
he also always complained his followers to have so little faith, you must read the whole bible not focuse on one sentence what it says in the bible is this.

If you have enough faith and you pray you can get anything you ask for

If you have enough faith you only want what is the will of God

If you have enough faith you do not tease your lord

If you have enough faith you trust your Lord above all things

No human can have faith, it is given to us by God

Suppose if you think about it logically you find the answer you seek for if you actually don’t just take the first part but teaching as a whole to ask for answers.
 
To make it easy: you can make as many scientific studies as you want but you never proof what is the real truth because it is depended that all these terms must be met, and in those studies they are not met
 
The miscomprehension is that saving a human life is somehow wonderful, but there is much more grace in the world to come, and if God forgivess the sins of these babies he has done something much more then if he concentrates on saving their lifes by contradicting himself.
Hello Juho

Do you realize that 30,000 people will starve to death today. 80% of those are under the age of five.

This answer is nothing but making excuses for your God.

Les
 
This seems to be a logical fallacy where you use a method of science to disprove something that does not go inside methods of science.
What ? The study proved prayer does not work.
There is a need for a lot better argumentation then this to disprove prayer and God. Especially given that in the bible humans ask God to give them a sign and he says you have been given a sign and you do not believe so why would you believe if give you a new sign you would find a better explanation for it.
When someone prays that a arm or leg grows back , and that arm or leg grows back. I will be a believer. If your god is real this should be no problem.
This is science which does not want to find out the truth but has the truth already and wants to find out evidence for it.
I think you are describing “creation science” here.

les
 
How about a more simple prayer than amputees?

My father was sick with cancer for 3 years. My mother prayed every day for him to get better, while we watched him get worse. After 3 years of prayer, and 3 years of unbearable suffering, this oh so loving God decided to kill my father.

Well God, thanks for listening ya big prick.
 
Why does God not answer all prayers?

Why is it mentioned specifically in the Bible that even the tiniest amount of faith would be more than enough for Jesus to answer your prayers?

He stats so obviously and extremely clearly that if you pray, it will be answered. There is no statement of ‘maybe’ or ‘it is not his will’ etc.

Matthew 7:7
  • Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
And if he asks for a serpent would God give it to him? Frequently we pray for things out of selfish desire, why should a loving God give this to us when it will only do us harm?
 
he also always complained his followers to have so little faith, you must read the whole bible not focuse on one sentence what it says in the bible is this.
I have read the bible.
If you have enough faith and you pray you can get anything you ask for
So Jesus says. But Jesus lied.
If you have enough faith you only want what is the will of God
What scripture backs this up? I would think that 30,000 people starving to death a day is not the “will of god”.
If you have enough faith you do not tease your lord
Explain.
If you have enough faith you trust your Lord above all things
Delusion.
No human can have faith, it is given to us by God
What scripture backs this up?

Why haven’t I and 4 billion more people on this planet haven’t been given this faith?

les
 
Frequently we pray for things out of selfish desire, why should a loving God give this to us when it will only do us harm?
Hello
Jesus said 9 times in the gospels if a believer prayed their prayers would be answered. If a believer prayed that 30,000 humans would not starve to death today, is saving these people doing me harm?

Would a person be selfish for praying to save this 30,000.?

les
 
And if he asks for a serpent would God give it to him? Frequently we pray for things out of selfish desire, why should a loving God give this to us when it will only do us harm?
than explain why God didn’t answer my mothers prayers as explained in my post above.
 
Hello
Jesus said 9 times in the gospels if a believer prayed their prayers would be answered. If a believer prayed that 30,000 humans would not starve to death today, is saving these people doing me harm?

Would a person be selfish for praying to save this 30,000.?

les
I think we are selfish for not saving these 30,000 people. For me, prayer is also an action that helps those in need.
 
I have read the bible.
but not unterstood it
So Jesus says. But Jesus lied.
God does not lie
What scripture backs this up? I would think that 30,000 people starving to death a day is not the “will of god”.
I am not a bible believer so i do not have the need to back up with scripture, this is teached by st. thomas aquintas when he teaches believers the Lords prayer
This is in the bible in mathew when Christ says to Devil that it has been written do no tease your Lord, when devil asks him to find proof for his faith.
Delusion.
Atheism is the biggest delusion
What scripture backs this up?
All of it. Especially gospel of John. There is no need to say a few lines since i am not a bible christian.
Why haven’t I and 4 billion more people on this planet haven’t been given this faith?
les
You would not have accepted it. And quite many have a longing for faith given to them by God, which is proven by their following of other religions but on cultural context they cannot find the right one.
 
Hello Hobble.

The answer is. God is imaginary. I am sorry for your lose.

les
Yeah, I know he’s imaginary. Which is why I’d like to see one of these delusional people try and explain it. So far they’ve just avoided though. No surprise there.
 
I think we are selfish for not saving these 30,000 people. For me, prayer is also an action that helps those in need.
Hello Ronald.

It takes the life out of me to know that 30,000 people starve to death each day. I don’t know what to say.

les
 
How about a more simple prayer than amputees?

My father was sick with cancer for 3 years. My mother prayed every day for him to get better, while we watched him get worse. After 3 years of prayer, and 3 years of unbearable suffering, this oh so loving God decided to kill my father.

Well God, thanks for listening ya big prick.
I hope your mother is doing ok. When I was a kid my mother would tell us that she hoped she would die before our father did so she would not have to live without him. Dad died in 1980 and she has been living without him for the last 28 years. Her faith has deepened during this time and I have developed the deepest respect and love for her that I never imagined I would have. Dad never went to church but he had a faith I did not know about until after his death.
He wasn’t catholic but 3 months before he died he put a new roof on the steeple of the catholic church and saved them thousands of dollars. The preist had a deep respect for my father and wrote the most profound letter of heartfelt gratitude. My father worked two jobs as a carpenter to raise 6 kids. He was a marine in WWII and fought in the South Pacific. He suffered from malaria and ptsd and slept 5 hours tops. He had crippling arthritis and bronchitis and never missed work. How did he do this? It was his faith in God that gave him the strength to do this. He never complained. He was a man that lived his life through his faith. I wish I knew this when I was living with him. His strength was God and he gave everything he had for us through his faith.
Jesus was a carpenter. He never complained. My father followed in His footsteps. My father’s way of enduring suffering through his faith gives me the example that I can only admire. I am not half the man he was. His faith was lived and not talked about.
I thank God for this man who is my father and I still miss him deeply.
 
I hope your mother is doing ok. When I was a kid my mother would tell us that she hoped she would die before our father did so she would not have to live without him. Dad died in 1980 and she has been living without him for the last 28 years. Her faith has deepened during this time and I have developed the deepest respect and love for her that I never imagined I would have. Dad never went to church but he had a faith I did not know about until after his death.
He wasn’t catholic but 3 months before he died he put a new roof on the steeple of the catholic church and saved them thousands of dollars. The preist had a deep respect for my father and wrote the most profound letter of heartfelt gratitude. My father worked two jobs as a carpenter to raise 6 kids. He was a marine in WWII and fought in the South Pacific. He suffered from malaria and ptsd and slept 5 hours tops. He had crippling arthritis and bronchitis and never missed work. How did he do this? It was his faith in God that gave him the strength to do this. He never complained. He was a man that lived his life through his faith. I wish I knew this when I was living with him. His strength was God and he gave everything he had for us through his faith.
Jesus was a carpenter. He never complained. My father followed in His footsteps. My father’s way of enduring suffering through his faith gives me the example that I can only admire. I am not half the man he was. His faith was lived and not talked about.
I thank God for this man who is my father and I still miss him deeply.
I am sorry to hear about your father.

He sounds a lot like mine. A hard worker, never complained, he was always willing to help anyone in need.

But this really does nothing to answer why God would ignore those prayers. It only strengthens my dislike for this “God”. Why would he let people who dedicate their lives to others suffer in such a way? He must have a sick sense of humor.

It seems there’s always two answers. If someone dies, and prayers go unanswered, than it’s because “God works in mysterious ways”. But if they get better, than it means it’s God’s work and he performed a miracle, when usually it’s because our immune system or a doctor saved us.

But the way I see it, he’s just not there. It happens because we are only mortal, there is no divine force that will protect us, unjust things will happen for no reason.
 
Hello Ronald.

It takes the life out of me to know that 30,000 people starve to death each day. I don’t know what to say.

les
Hi Les, I just had to capitalize your name for having that kind of compassion. What I am learning Les is that those of us who are highly sensitive to the crises of being human feel the suffering of the world most intensely. You have the sensitivity of a saint Les and to live in a world with so much hate and suffering is overwhelming most of the time. I get enraged because I hear so much talk about faith and being united, but, there is so little sacrifice other than praying or giving a few bucks for the poor.
Why don’t we just stop what we are doing for one month and focus all of our efforts on saving those 30,000 and then moving to the next 30,000. Instead we have fragmented movements of unknown saints begging for the few bucks we give them and that is not nearly enough. However, it seems to satisfy our conscience.
I am at a loss also Les.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top