Atheism and morality

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Atheism and morality
The great nineteenth century Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, “If there is no God, all is lawful.”
According to atheism, there is no God or intelligent designer. We are simply the products of blind evolution. If this is true, then where do we get the notion of good and evil? In his book The Abolition of Man, C.S. Lewis noted this thread of a standard of good and evil in almost all the world’s cultures, which he called ‘the Tao.” But if there is no God and we are simply the products of chance, then how can we call anything good and evil? There is nothing like it in the animal kingdom. If a dog kills another dog, there is no doggie police department that will apprehend him and take before a doggie judge and who will sentence him to a doggie jail. On wildlife shows we see stronger animals taking food from weaker animals. Is there any zoological court of appeal that the weaker animal can appeal to?
Many people would consider mass murderers like Stalin and Hitler and serial killers like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson evil. But how so? Perhaps these men are simply evolution in action, nature’s way of thinning the human herd of the weak and unfit?
 
Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

Until recently, humans were thought to be the only species to experience complex emotions and have a sense of morality.

But Prof Marc Bekoff, an ecologist at University of Colorado, Boulder, believes that morals are “hard-wired” into the brains of all mammals and provide the “social glue” that allow often aggressive and competitive animals to live together in groups.

He has compiled evidence from around the world that shows how different species of animals appear to have an innate sense of fairness, display empathy and help other animals that are in distress.

His conclusions will provide ammunition for animal welfare groups pushing to have animals treated more humanely, but some experts are skeptical about the extent to which animals can experience complex emotions and social responsibility.

Prof Bekoff, who presents his case in a new book Wild Justice, said: "The belief that humans have morality and animals don’t is a long-standing assumption, but there is a growing amount of evidence that is showing us that this simply cannot be the case.

“Just as in humans, the moral nuances of a particular culture or group will be different from another, but they are certainly there. Moral codes are species specific, so they can be difficult to compare with each other or with humans.”

Prof Bekoff believes morals developed in animals to help regulate behavior in social groups of animals such as wolves and primates.

He claims that these rules help to control fighting within the group and encourage co-operative behavior.

Recent neurology work has also revealed that distantly related mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same structures in their brains that are thought to be responsible for empathy in humans.

Other findings have also suggested that some animals may even be capable of showing empathy with the suffering of other species.

Prof Bekoff, who co-wrote the book with moral philosopher Jessica Pierce, also from the University of Colorado, added: "There are cases of dolphins helping humans to escape from sharks and elephants that have helped antelope escape from enclosures.

“While it is difficult to know for certain that there is cross species empathy, it is hard to argue against it.”

His ideas have met with some controversy in the scientific community, but many admit it is difficult to argue that animals do not share many of the psychological qualities previously only attributed to humans.

Professor Frans de Waal, a primate behaviorist at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, said: "I don’t believe animals are moral in the sense we humans are – with well developed and reasoned sense of right and wrong – rather that human morality incorporates a set of psychological tendencies and capacities such as empathy, reciprocity, a desire for co-operation and harmony that are older than our species.

“Human morality was not formed from scratch, but grew out of our primate psychology. Primate psychology has ancient roots, and I agree that other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality.”

WOLVES

Wolves live in tight-knit social groups that are regulated by strict rules. If a pack grows too large, members are not able to bond closely enough and the pack disintegrates. Wolves also demonstrate fairness.

During play, dominant wolves will “handicap” themselves by engaging in roll reversal with lower ranking wolves, showing submission and allowing them to bite, provided it is not too hard.

Prof Bekoff argues that without a moral code governing their actions, this kind of behavior would not be possible. If an animal bites too hard, it will initiate a “play bow” to ask forgiveness before play resumes.

COYOTES

In other members of the dog family, play is controlled by similar rules. Among coyotes, cubs which bite too hard are ostracized by the rest of the group and often end up having to leave entirely.

“We looked at the mortality of these young animals who disperse from the group and they have four to five times higher mortality,” said Bekoff.

Experiments with domestic dogs, where one animal was given a treat and another denied, have shown that they posses a sense of fairness as they shared their treats.

ELEPHANTS

Elephants are intensely sociable and emotional animals. Research by Iain Douglas Hamilton, from the department of zoology at Oxford University, suggests elephants experience compassion and has found evidence of elephants helping injured or ill members of their herd.

In one case, a Matriarch known as Eleanor fell ill and a female in the herd gently tried to help Eleanor back to her feet, staying with her before she died.

In 2003, a herd of 11 elephants rescued antelope who were being held inside an enclosure in KwaZula-Natal, South Africa.

The matriarch unfastened all of the metal latches holding the gates closed and swung the entrance open allowing the antelope to escape.

This is thought to be a rare example of animals showing empathy for members of another species – a trait previously thought to be the exclusive preserve of mankind.

DIANA MONKEYS

A laboratory experiment trained Diana monkeys to insert a token into a slot to obtain food.

A male who had grown to be adept at the task was found to be helping the oldest female who had not been able to learn how to insert the token.

On three occasion the male monkey picked up tokens she dropped and inserted them into the slot and allowed her to have the food.

As there was no benefit for the male monkey, Prof Bekoff argues that this is a clear example of an animal’s actions being driven by some internal moral compass.
 
CHIMPANZEES

Known to be among the most cognitively advanced of the great apes and our closest cousin, it is perhaps not surprising that scientists should suggest they live by moral codes.

A chimpanzee known as Knuckles – from the Centre for Great Apes in Florida – is the only known captive chimpanzee to suffer from cerebral palsy, which leaves him physically and mentally handicapped.

Scientists have found that other chimpanzees in his group treat him differently and he is rarely subjected to intimidating displays of aggression from older males.

Chimpanzees also demonstrate a sense of justice and those who deviate from the code of conduct of a group are set upon by other members as punishment.

RODENTS

Experiments with rats have shown that they will not take food if they know their actions will cause pain to another rat. In lab tests, rats were given food which then caused a second group of rats to receive an electric shock.

The rats with the food stopped eating rather than see another rat receive a shock. Similarly, mice react more strongly to pain when they have seen another mouse in pain.

Recent research from Switzerland also showed that rats will help a rat, to which it is not related, to obtain food if they themselves have benefited from the charity of others. This reciprocity was thought to be restricted to primates.

BATS

Vampire bats need to drink blood every night but it is common for some not to find any food. Those who are successful in foraging for blood will share their meal with bats who are not successful.

They are more likely to share with bats who had previously shared with them. Prof Bekoff believes this reciprocity is a result of a sense of affiliation that binds groups of animals together.

Some studies have shown that animals experience hormonal changes that lead them to “crave” social interaction.

Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position – with head up and feed down.

WHALES

Whales have been found to have spindle cells in their brains. These very large and specialized cells were thought to be restricted to humans and other great apes and appear to play a role in empathy and understanding the feelings of others.

Humpback whales, fin whales, killer whales and sperm whales have all been found to have spindle cells in the same areas of their brains.

They also have three times as many spindle cells compared to humans and are thought to be older in evolutionary terms.

This finding has suggested that complex emotional judgments such as empathy may have evolved considerably earlier in history than previously thought and could be widespread in the animal kingdom.
 
RNRobert said:
Atheism and morality
The great nineteenth century Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, “If there is no God, all is lawful.”
Click to expand...
I do not believe you. Where did he ever say the quote that you attribute to him? It’s a minor point, but I believe in making sure what we say is accurate. This article explains what he really said. I try to avoid passing things on without checking them out for myself, so I checked it out and was also unable to find this quote in the book that people typically attribute it to.
 
anEvilAtheist said:
I do not believe you. Where did he ever say the quote that you attribute to him? It’s a minor point, but I believe in making sure what we say is accurate. This article explains what he really said. I try to avoid passing things on without checking them out for myself, so I checked it out and was also unable to find this quote in the book that people typically attribute it to.
Click to expand...
I read it in his novel The Brothers Karamazov.
 
JordanSRT said:
Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

Until recently, humans were thought to be the only species to experience complex emotions and have a sense of morality.

But Prof Marc Bekoff, an ecologist at University of Colorado, Boulder, believes that morals are “hard-wired” into the brains of all mammals and provide the “social glue” that allow often aggressive and competitive animals to live together in groups.

He has compiled evidence from around the world that shows how different species of animals appear to have an innate sense of fairness, display empathy and help other animals that are in distress.

His conclusions will provide ammunition for animal welfare groups pushing to have animals treated more humanely, but some experts are skeptical about the extent to which animals can experience complex emotions and social responsibility.

Prof Bekoff, who presents his case in a new book Wild Justice, said: "The belief that humans have morality and animals don’t is a long-standing assumption, but there is a growing amount of evidence that is showing us that this simply cannot be the case.

“Just as in humans, the moral nuances of a particular culture or group will be different from another, but they are certainly there. Moral codes are species specific, so they can be difficult to compare with each other or with humans.”

Prof Bekoff believes morals developed in animals to help regulate behavior in social groups of animals such as wolves and primates.

He claims that these rules help to control fighting within the group and encourage co-operative behavior.

Recent neurology work has also revealed that distantly related mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same structures in their brains that are thought to be responsible for empathy in humans.

Other findings have also suggested that some animals may even be capable of showing empathy with the suffering of other species.

Prof Bekoff, who co-wrote the book with moral philosopher Jessica Pierce, also from the University of Colorado, added: "There are cases of dolphins helping humans to escape from sharks and elephants that have helped antelope escape from enclosures.

“While it is difficult to know for certain that there is cross species empathy, it is hard to argue against it.”

His ideas have met with some controversy in the scientific community, but many admit it is difficult to argue that animals do not share many of the psychological qualities previously only attributed to humans.

Professor Frans de Waal, a primate behaviorist at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, said: "I don’t believe animals are moral in the sense we humans are – with well developed and reasoned sense of right and wrong – rather that human morality incorporates a set of psychological tendencies and capacities such as empathy, reciprocity, a desire for co-operation and harmony that are older than our species.

“Human morality was not formed from scratch, but grew out of our primate psychology. Primate psychology has ancient roots, and I agree that other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality.”

WOLVES

Wolves live in tight-knit social groups that are regulated by strict rules. If a pack grows too large, members are not able to bond closely enough and the pack disintegrates. Wolves also demonstrate fairness.

During play, dominant wolves will “handicap” themselves by engaging in roll reversal with lower ranking wolves, showing submission and allowing them to bite, provided it is not too hard.

Prof Bekoff argues that without a moral code governing their actions, this kind of behavior would not be possible. If an animal bites too hard, it will initiate a “play bow” to ask forgiveness before play resumes.

DIANA MONKEYS

A laboratory experiment trained Diana monkeys to insert a token into a slot to obtain food.

A male who had grown to be adept at the task was found to be helping the oldest female who had not been able to learn how to insert the token.

On three occasion the male monkey picked up tokens she dropped and inserted them into the slot and allowed her to have the food.

As there was no benefit for the male monkey, Prof Bekoff argues that this is a clear example of an animal’s actions being driven by some internal moral compass.
Click to expand...
It’s great that animals can experience a degree of emotions and/or empathy but Professor Berkoff I believe is inflating the evidence to suit his hypothesis. For example, the male monkey who inserted the tokens to “allow” the female monkey to eat, may be nothing more than a monkey uninterested in the food as he is not hungry. What would have made the experiment a lot more interesting is if the male monkey would have allowed her to eat the food had he been in need of sustenance? I wonder if then the animal would feel morally duty bound to feed another? Being Altruistic is not exactly a trait animals have. And I doubt if we as humans could live like animals and accept/function under their “moral” codes.
 
RNRobert said:
I read it in his novel The Brothers Karamazov.
Click to expand...
You might want to check the book, because he never says that in The Brothers Karamazov. Not all quotes you find online are correct. That sentence may describe the beliefs of one of the characters in the book, but it is not found anywhere in the book.
 
anEvilAtheist said:
You might want to check the book, because he never says that in The Brothers Karamazov. Not all quotes you find online are correct. That sentence may describe the beliefs of one of the characters in the book, but it is not found anywhere in the book.
Click to expand...
I didn’t find it online. I read it in the book many years ago.
 
JordanSRT said:
Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.
Click to expand...
Moral codes based on what?
 
You forgot another case of “animal morality”. Outside of my school a mother duck had a couple of ducklings. One received an injury and she began to neglect it. Some students had to take the duckling to the vet and nurse it to health before the mother finally accepted it back and began to take care of it again.

So much for “animal morality”:rolleyes:
 
I’ve never understood the argument that people who are wrong about God, whether atheists or non-Christians, must therefore have some problem with morality. For example, Kant’s categorical imperative doesn’t require belief in God.

I think that atheists and Christians have a much better chance of understanding each other if we don’t try to twist each other’s beliefs based on mistaken or strawman reasoning. (Atheists do this too, e.g., using Matthew 12:31-32 to create some kind of “condemn oneself to hell” action.)

Just FYI, here is a rather humorous atheist response to that argument. God is telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and He asks Abraham if he thinks it is wrong. Abraham replies, “If I thought it was wrong? Like I’d know! Like I have any chance of forming an independent basis of right and wrong outside the instructions of some supervisory being?”
 
RNRobert said:
Thanks, but I’ll re-read the copy I have on my shelf.
Click to expand...
I recommend you read Platon’s Euthyphron instead. That book explains why morals can never be based on the words or orders of some god, evn if there is one.
 
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