Atheism and sanctity of life

[reggieM]

As to trying to reach out to the diety to see if it is there, I just want to knock on it’s door to see if anyone is home.

I thought this was a great response and I admire your honesty and willingness to be open and explore the issue. Yes, I can see that. You would want to just knock on the door and see what happens. That seems reasonable. However, as you understood correctly - that method may not give any result (it actually could, possibly, give an observable result but time-honored wisdom says it won’t).

But that seems to offend the deity because it won’t answer it until I am ready to start the process of having a good relationship with it.

Well, I think you’re right here. There is a demand and expectation. For example, people came to Jesus when he was on earth basically asking: “Hey, show us one of your tricks!” Jesus made it known that was insulting and demeaning. In fact, the king, Herod did the same - he wanted to be amused by a miracle. Jesus wouldn’t even speak to him.
Why would God do that?

Well, we’re talking about God who is the Person who we have the most admiration and respect for. This is the best Person we could ever meet and know and befriend. Plus, this Person was willing to give His very best for us - in our need. So, we don’t go to him as if he is a joke or like a cheap magician and be entertained and then walk way.
Keep in mind, He loves us. No, He is in love with us.
So, you meet someone who is in love with you. Do you play with that person’s emotions? Have a joke at his or her expense? Obviously not - even if you don’t like the person you’re careful and respectful. This person is in love with you - thinks you are the best. So, you admire that and respect it.
That’s what we have. You’re visiting a person who already loves you. It’s a problem! You can’t just say you don’t care. You can’t treat this Person like He’s a science experiment. Yes, you have to have a relationship with Him.

I don’t know if I want this entity in my life or not yet.

Very honest and admirable response. You’re seeing it clearly. Moving towards this entity will mean He is in your life. I fully understand how it would seem safer and better not to make that move. That is actually very respectful - because you clearly know what this entails. But He is calling - and it is a voice of love. We want to go the other direction - I know, I have wanted that and sadly, have done it. But it’s a gentle voice - asking us to allow Him into our life. No, he doesn’t dominate. In fact, He is quiet and humble.

I just want to know if it even exists, then we’ll have a conversation, then I’ll decide what type of relationship I want with it.

Well, it’s kind of a catch 22 because the best way to know of His existence is to start on the path towards Him. That’s the way to explore. If you use science for this exploration, you’re using the wrong tool. You want to know if your spouse really loves you. Obviously, the first thing you’re not going to do is commission a scientific study.

I can’t help but have relationships this way since this is how all humans do this it seems to me.

Ok, but as above - you don’t start doing scientific experiments. Does this person really love you? Can this person be trusted? Is this person lying or telling the truth. Is he sincere? You learn these things by starting a relationship – yes it can and must be cautious. But you move towards the person and your heart will show you things that your brain alone cannot know.

 

[reggieM]

If you believe in the devil, it was given all the data it needed to know that this deity exists and then decided what type of relationship it wanted with it. I am just asking for the same thing. I want to know that it exists at all first, then find out what type of relationship I would have with it, once I learn how it makes my life positive or negative.

We can have sufficient knowledge from arguments. Those arguments point in a direction - as we said, science doesn’t give certainty, but we can arrive at “the best explanation” that we can. There are arguments for God and there is evidence. I gave you some evidence already - namely, myself and my own claims. Add that to other arguments. If the arguments for the existence of God are better than that for non-existent, then you have a starting point.
Do you “know for certain” that God exists after that? No. You just know it’s reasonable to believe.
The next methods have to go beyond science and argumentation.
You have to use the right tools. Science won’t help after a point. To find the supernatural, you have to use different tools:
Faith, trust, intuition, conscience – basically, spiritual insight.
You have to get to the point where you say “Ok, I’m going to try this. I’m going to take a leap of Faith. I will try to pray, sincerely. I will try to act like a believer - even if I don’t fully know or believe. I’m going to search for God and use my spiritual sense to explore this”.
Yes, it takes faith. But when you step out in Faith - that’s when the validation of God’s existence comes to you.
I know it seems unfair. “Why do I have to begin by believing? Shouldn’t I start by knowing God exists and then I’ll follow?” No - because the “engine” that drives our spiritual life is fueled by faith. We have to dig deep into ourselves and say “Yes, the arguments point to God existing - I’m going to follow that and believe and pray to find more”.

At this point, the deity is still coming across as white noise at this point every time I try the experiments that the religious ask me to do. So either the deity doesn’t want to reveal itself or can’t or doesn’t exist. I can’t tell a difference and since I can’t reach the supernatural realm to check myself, it’s not a problem I can solve it seems.

First the fact that you tried is admirable. Second, I don’t know what experiments you were given – but another idea is to look at people who have been successful (or claim it) and notice what they did.

Would you take medicine on “intuition”? I wouldn’t.

I know what you mean, but also - sometimes by intuition we can know more about what is ailing us than a doctor can through medical procedures. So, it’s important to cultivate intuitions - even though we don’t use them for everything we do.

What’s the consequence of intuiting the wrong religion or the wrong deity, if it exists? I want to remove as much human bias and error as possible before going down that road if the consequences are what this religion says it is.

It’s an excellent point and I can’t disagree. I would only say that less knowledge about the Catholic religion is not the best way to remove bias. I have mentioned elsewhere - there is St. Pio of Pieltracina, St. Bernadette, St. Juan Diego and the tilma of Guadalupe, the Shroud of Turin, the Fatima seers. Those are a few starting points.

Thank you again for a very thoughtful reply.

 

[Russell_SA]

Well, I think you’re right here. There is a demand and expectation. For example, people came to Jesus when he was on earth basically asking: “Hey, show us one of your tricks!” Jesus made it known that was insulting and demeaning. In fact, the king, Herod did the same - he wanted to be amused by a miracle. Jesus wouldn’t even speak to him.
Why would God do that?

I’m not asking god to chuck and jive for me. Just show that it exists. Answer the door, answer the phone, etc. Hello Margaret are you there. Just answering the door is not asking anyone to perform for us.

Well, we’re talking about God who is the Person who we have the most admiration and respect for. This is the best Person we could ever meet and know and befriend. Plus, this Person was willing to give His very best for us - in our need. So, we don’t go to him as if he is a joke or like a cheap magician and be entertained and then walk way.
Keep in mind, He loves us. No, He is in love with us.
So, you meet someone who is in love with you. Do you play with that person’s emotions? Have a joke at his or her expense? Obviously not - even if you don’t like the person you’re careful and respectful. This person is in love with you - thinks you are the best. So, you admire that and respect it.
That’s what we have. You’re visiting a person who already loves you. It’s a problem! You can’t just say you don’t care. You can’t treat this Person like He’s a science experiment. Yes, you have to have a relationship with Him.

I don’t presuppose anyone is a good person, that has to be earned by their interaction with me. Everyone is neutral, they have the potential to illustrate an overall bad or healthy relationship with me. My responses to their displays of love, will let that person know if I am feeling loved, not what they think I should be feeling based on their actions. Abusive spouses have this issue with their significant others for example.

Very honest and admirable response. You’re seeing it clearly. Moving towards this entity will mean He is in your life. I fully understand how it would seem safer and better not to make that move. That is actually very respectful - because you clearly know what this entails. But He is calling - and it is a voice of love. We want to go the other direction - I know, I have wanted that and sadly, have done it. But it’s a gentle voice - asking us to allow Him into our life. No, he doesn’t dominate. In fact, He is quiet and humble.

I have been making moves all the time, but after too many calls of just white noise, apparently that experiment doesn’t work. If you have another one to try, let me know. But religious prayer and involvement doesn’t seem to work for me when I run that experiment.

Well, it’s kind of a catch 22 because the best way to know of His existence is to start on the path towards Him. That’s the way to explore. If you use science for this exploration, you’re using the wrong tool. You want to know if your spouse really loves you. Obviously, the first thing you’re not going to do is commission a scientific study.

I have to know my spouse existed first before having a relationship with her. How do you start loving your husband or wife before they were at the party where you met them? It starts with acknowledging they exist first, then walking over to get to know them.

Ok, but as above - you don’t start doing scientific experiments. Does this person really love you? Can this person be trusted? Is this person lying or telling the truth. Is he sincere? You learn these things by starting a relationship – yes it can and must be cautious. But you move towards the person and your heart will show you things that your brain alone cannot know.

I have repeated data of their actions placing me in a loved state of mind. Everyday I can point to this, it is constantly reliable. The actions that I determine as loved actions towards me, they fulfill in their own way and take my feed back on how to keep doing that better and vice versa. No one loves someone without a lengthy relationship to reference.

 

[Russell_SA]

We can have sufficient knowledge from arguments.

Well you do, I don’t yet. There are arguments for where to start looking for the deity, but as far as I know we haven’t found it actually being there yet. So I’m fine with people having an idea that god could be there and then living by the idea of that god being there. Such as living by the ideal version of yourself that you hold yourself accountable to or your spouse holds you accountable to. Also, we can be logically correct and still factually wrong. Einstein mathematically/logically concluded that gravity waves should exist. But we didn’t start teaching that as a truth about reality until we actually found them in 2015. Our logic is limited based on what we currently know about reality. Then we start investigating where things we predict to be. If we learn a new truth along the way, then our logic models must adjust. Such as how things can not be in the same place at the same time, but apparently they can be. Or how the sum of 1+2+3…to infinity equals -1/12. Reality is smarter than our logic or intuition is.

Those arguments point in a direction - as we said, science doesn’t give certainty, but we can arrive at “the best explanation” that we can. There are arguments for God and there is evidence. I gave you some evidence already - namely, myself and my own claims. Add that to other arguments. If the arguments for the existence of God are better than that for non-existent, then you have a starting point.
Do you “know for certain” that God exists after that? No. You just know it’s reasonable to believe.
The next methods have to go beyond science and argumentation.
You have to use the right tools. Science won’t help after a point. To find the supernatural, you have to use different tools:
Faith, trust, intuition, conscience – basically, spiritual insight.
You have to get to the point where you say “Ok, I’m going to try this. I’m going to take a leap of Faith. I will try to pray, sincerely. I will try to act like a believer - even if I don’t fully know or believe. I’m going to search for God and use my spiritual sense to explore this”.
Yes, it takes faith. But when you step out in Faith - that’s when the validation of God’s existence comes to you.
I know it seems unfair. “Why do I have to begin by believing? Shouldn’t I start by knowing God exists and then I’ll follow?” No - because the “engine” that drives our spiritual life is fueled by faith. We have to dig deep into ourselves and say “Yes, the arguments point to God existing - I’m going to follow that and believe and pray to find more”.

Math offers certainty or proofs, so I agree science only offers the best most repeatable process for the observed event. If you can break their current model, mazel tov and here’s your nobel. I’m fine that you have direct evidence of a god, but it is withholding that from me. I trust that you are relaying your experience as accurately as possible, but I don’t know if your interpretation of that data is correct or not. How do you falsify a psychic message between someone and their god?
As to the problem of the word “faith”.
Here is how I see the difference between Belief, Hope, and Faith.
Belief - the understanding that, out of all possible events, one will occur. IE: a value of 1-6 will occur if you roll a 1d6 dice.
Hope - the desire for the outcome you want out of all possible outcomes. IE: to hope for a 5 out of a 1d6 roll since you bet a 5 would appear.
Faith - The hope for things unjustified yet. IE: to hope for a 7 out of a 1d6 roll.
Is there anything you could not argue for based on “faith”? If so, I haven’t heard of it yet. So, that being the case, you can use faith to argue for both sides of every point and as such, how can faith ever be a reliable path to truth about anything?
Not being snippy here, this is really how these I see people using these terms.

I’m also unclear on all the supernatural terms people use since they always seem to change from person to person. What do you mean by “spiritual”?

The end there really seems like you are saying, fake it till you make it. Reminds me of Tom Hanks in Castaway. At the beginning of the movie, it was just a volleyball. By the end, it was his best friend.

 

[reggieM]

So I’m fine with people having an idea that god could be there and then living by the idea of that god being there.

You could take it farther. You could accept the idea that God actually is there and the people you encounter (like me) are seeing and understanding the reality.

Such as living by the ideal version of yourself that you hold yourself accountable to or your spouse holds you accountable to.

As God communicates to the person - He is the one we are accountable to. And His understanding of our life is far better than what our spouse or our own self can provide.

Also, we can be logically correct and still factually wrong. Einstein mathematically/logically concluded that gravity waves should exist. But we didn’t start teaching that as a truth about reality until we actually found them in 2015. Our logic is limited based on what we currently know about reality. Then we start investigating where things we predict to be. If we learn a new truth along the way, then our logic models must adjust. Such as how things can not be in the same place at the same time, but apparently they can be. Or how the sum of 1+2+3…to infinity equals -1/12. Reality is smarter than our logic or intuition is.

God gives us logic and intuition - and He is smarter than both of those, yes. But we use both logic and intuition and that’s how we search for God. Prayer is the best means, along with knowing who God is.

How do you falsify a psychic message between someone and their god?

As I said, when someone you know asserts that this has happened, it is merely evidence. Some cumulative evidence strengthens this. You then read of the Catholic saints and see their psychic communication with God - some of it manifested empirically. You can draw an inference from this. Saying “there is no evidence” would be false.

Belief - the understanding that, out of all possible events, one will occur. IE: a value of 1-6 will occur if you roll a 1d6 dice.

Well, not really. It’s not a question of belief to know that the numbers 1-6 will turn up on a roll of the dice. There’s a pattern of cause and effect and you have (what we call) certainty that they remain in place the next time. It’s a belief that laws of nature will remain constant. That’s how we arrive at certainty about things. You are certain that you know how to walk. You don’t have to consult a book to teach you that.
Belief is something more. There has to be some level of uncertainty. You can’t simply believe that when you answer “5” to the question “what is 2+2” that you will arrive at the correct answer.

Hope - the desire for the outcome you want out of all possible outcomes. IE: to hope for a 5 out of a 1d6 roll since you bet a 5 would appear.

That’s a very trivial matter, keeping in mind “possible” can open up a world of hope. When looking at a life-scenario, hope takes a much more significant role. We wouldn’t say “we hope a result of 1-6 will arrive”. We are certain it will.

Faith - The hope for things unjustified yet. IE: to hope for a 7 out of a 1d6 roll.

Faith is hope for things unseen or uncertain. You want to start a business - conditions look bad, you don’t have all the money you’d want - by faith, however, you try.

Is there anything you could not argue for based on “faith”?

You’ve asked that question before, and I’m sorry - I don’t know what it means.

So, that being the case, you can use faith to argue for both sides of every point and as such, how can faith ever be a reliable path to truth about anything?

As above, I don’t understand or follow this. Could you give an example?

I’m also unclear on all the supernatural terms people use since they always seem to change from person to person. What do you mean by “spiritual”?

Immaterial, non-determinate, irreducible to the physical. Using your own spiritual sense, would be an awareness that transcends logic. It’s the source for intuition or inspiration. You may hear of artists or musicians speak of a spiritual quality to their work. It’s transcendent to reason alone.

The end there really seems like you are saying, fake it till you make it.

If by “make it” you mean truly have a real encounter with the living God, then yes. But I wouldn’t say “fake it”, bur rather “practice it”. You have to do your spiritual exercises. The Catholic way of life is not limited to logic and book-knowledge. It is a practice. We get better and better at it as we learn how to communicate with God and build the relationship. It’s like a human relationship. We learn about our spouse - through practice of love.

Reminds me of Tom Hanks in Castaway. At the beginning of the movie, it was just a volleyball. By the end, it was his best friend.

Substitute a person for the volleyball and you’ve got something there.
You meet the person and it’s awkward, but eventually you become friends.

 

[Russell_SA]

You could take it farther. You could accept the idea that God actually is there and the people you encounter (like me) are seeing and understanding the reality.

I’ll with hold belief till I have justification for it. Just like Einstein logically through mathematics concluded that gravity waves should exist, we didn’t believe they actually existed until we detected them in 2015. I’ll leave reality as the bar for what I believe and use logic to go look for it. Seems more humble to me that way since I could be wrong in my logic. After all 1+2+3…to infinity appears to be -1/12. Particles can inhabit different spaces at the same time. etc. Reality is more imaginative than I’ll ever be.

As God communicates to the person - He is the one we are accountable to. And His understanding of our life is far better than what our spouse or our own self can provide.

I’m accountable to the people that I care about, not the biggest bully in the room. Even if I can’t do anything about the judgment, at least I believe I lived as honest a life as I thought I could. Your deity could change that in a second but has yet to do so, so not my problem at this point.

God gives us logic and intuition - and He is smarter than both of those, yes. But we use both logic and intuition and that’s how we search for God. Prayer is the best means, along with knowing who God is.

I disagree, all the evidence in this reality points to a health brain is where these applications come from. Do you have evidence of this being outside of a brain somewhere?

As I said, when someone you know asserts that this has happened, it is merely evidence. Some cumulative evidence strengthens this. You then read of the Catholic saints and see their psychic communication with God - some of it manifested empirically. You can draw an inference from this. Saying “there is no evidence” would be false.

Testimony is not enough evidence alone since we can not tell the difference between someone’s lie, misunderstandings of the event, etc. Independent, falsifiable evidence holds up more in cases. That is why dna evidence supersedes eye witness accounts.

Well, not really. It’s not a question of belief to know that the numbers 1-6 will turn up on a roll of the dice. There’s a pattern of cause and effect and you have (what we call) certainty that they remain in place the next time. It’s a belief that laws of nature will remain constant. That’s how we arrive at certainty about things. You are certain that you know how to walk. You don’t have to consult a book to teach you that.

That’s what belief is, the certainty that the most likely thing will happen again, based on you current understanding of the situation and how reality works. That’s why we believe in gravity for example or when we roll a 1d6 dice, we’ve never encountered it not landing on a value from 1-6.

Belief is something more. There has to be some level of uncertainty. You can’t simply believe that when you answer “5” to the question “what is 2+2” that you will arrive at the correct answer.

That’s why I always understand it to be that belief is not a choice. It’s the results of understanding reality. Such as looking at a red shirt and choosing to believe it is blue. No one can do this honestly.

That’s a very trivial matter, keeping in mind “possible” can open up a world of hope. When looking at a life-scenario, hope takes a much more significant role. We wouldn’t say “we hope a result of 1-6 will arrive”. We are certain it will.

You seem to miss my point that we hope a specific value from all the possible values will occur. Such as betting on the 5 to appear out of all the other options. Or hoping that the cancer will go into recession. We hope for this since we have experienced this happening before. It’s a known, but less possible outcome.

Faith is hope for things unseen or uncertain. You want to start a business - conditions look bad, you don’t have all the money you’d want - by faith, however, you try.

Yes unseen and uncertain, such as a 7 being rolled on a 1d6. No one has ever seen this happen and are uncertain that it will happen. But we have seen businesses actually succeed. You seem to be bringing faith back to the idea of hope, so just use the word hope.

You’ve asked that question before, and I’m sorry - I don’t know what it means.

As above, I don’t understand or follow this. Could you give an example?

 

[Russell_SA]

Immaterial, non-determinate, irreducible to the physical. Using your own spiritual sense, would be an awareness that transcends logic. It’s the source for intuition or inspiration. You may hear of artists or musicians speak of a spiritual quality to their work. It’s transcendent to reason alone.

What is a “spiritual” sense?
Awareness that is there before we are conscious of it - sounds like intuition. I understand being in Awe of something and the grand beauty in the universe or a seed. But I don’t need to invent a whole other realm for this as well or the idea of actually understanding why somethings are beautiful does not diminish it’s actual beauty to me.

If by “make it” you mean truly have a real encounter with the living God, then yes. But I wouldn’t say “fake it”, bur rather “practice it”. You have to do your spiritual exercises. The Catholic way of life is not limited to logic and book-knowledge. It is a practice. We get better and better at it as we learn how to communicate with God and build the relationship. It’s like a human relationship. We learn about our spouse - through practice of love.

How is this any different than say a shaman giving you a hallucinogen to go on a “spirit” journey? Altering brain states through meditation can give me varying levels of inner peace, but it doesn’t make chakras, chi, or spirits actually exist.

 

[reggieM]

What is a “spiritual” sense?
Awareness that is there before we are conscious of it - sounds like intuition.

You could call it that. It is non-determinate. You could investigate the lives of Catholic saints for example - with various spiritual powers. Those are more obvious instances. We have “spiritual exercises” in the Catholic world, to practice and develop the “spiritual sense” - learning how to discern God’s communication with the soul. From this, various gifts of grace can come - prophecy of the future, healing, insight into things that cannot be known by natural means.

I understand being in Awe of something and the grand beauty in the universe or a seed.

That is certainly a start. You could question why is there awe? This just are. There is nothing to be filled with awe or wonder about. What does it mean to “appreciate” something that just happened by random chance? There is nothing to it. But that sense of awe takes us out of ourselves into something greater. We experience something that goes beyond the physical - it’s a spiritual awareness. If you’re familiar with art or music at all, you can hear of artists saying that a certain work has a “spiritual quality”. If you’re not familiar with any art or music of this sort that may not make sense though.
Somethings like dreams, deja vu, intuitive insights, coincidence, serendipity - are small indicators of a spiritual reality.

But I don’t need to invent a whole other realm for this as well or the idea of actually understanding why somethings are beautiful does not diminish it’s actual beauty to me.

If you encounter something that fills you with awe for its beauty - do you know why that thing is beautiful? But also, the idea of mystery is an important aspect of beauty. Why are some things more beautiful and others less?

How is this any different than say a shaman giving you a hallucinogen to go on a “spirit” journey?

A person who is praying is not taking a drug to alter the brain chemistry. It’s a prayer to God. Additionally, people cannot just generate hallucinations for themselves merely by praying to God. If so, I think we’d have millions of hallucinations to account for.

Altering brain states through meditation can give me varying levels of inner peace, but it doesn’t make chakras, chi, or spirits actually exist.

Sure. Sitting in a hot-tub can give you some peace. But we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about something within one’s conscience (another place to find the spiritual) and not merely a self-satisfaction, but an actual communication with God, where He answers in ways we cannot create for ourselves.