Atheism and the Church

[Montalban]

The Catholic Church needed no Constitutional rights to control the Catholic population then anymore than it needs Constitutional Rights to control it now.

The Catholic Church does not ‘control’ the Catholic population. They certainly can give directives over what is right or wrong, but each person’s free to act.

If the Pope made a papal bull, that would be that.

The Church’s degree of punishment to ‘coerce’ them into acting is rather limited. Thus your challenge is false.

But the Church looked the other way, didn’t they? With the right hand, they condemned the IDEA of slavery, but did nothing to staunch slavery itself.

Did it?
In 1537 Pope Paul III said that no American Indian should be enslaved. Pope Innocent XI ruled that it was not permitted to buy or sell Africans who had been sized against their will. The Papacy condemned slavery or the slave trade in 1462, 1741, 1815 and 1839

And not only in Catholic America. What of the Catholic Portuguese slavers, the Catholic Dutch slavers, the Catholic Spanish slavers, etc.

See above

Where were the threats of excommunication?

The Dutch are Protestants!

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

I’m sorry, Monty. You wanted refs?

The Roman Catholic church’s Sacred Congregation of the Index continued to place many anti-slavery tracts on their Index of Forbidden Books in order to prevent the public from reading them.

1839: Pope Gregory XVI wrote in Supremo Apostolatus that he admonishes and adjures “in the Lord all believers in Christ, of whatsoever condition, that no one hereafter may dare unjustly to molest Indians, Negroes, or other men of this sort;…or to reduce them to slavery…” The operative word is unjustly. The Pope did not condemn slavery if the slaves had been captured justly – that is, they were either criminals or prisoners of war. Roman Catholic Bishops in the Southern U.S. determined that this prohibition did not apply to slavery in the U.S. To their credit, various other popes did order or otherwise influence the emancipation of slaves that they considered to be unjustly enslaved.

1. Eddie Becker, “Chronology on the history of slavery and racism,” at: innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html
2. William Still, “The Underground Railway,” Ayer Co. May be ordered at: scry.com/ayerctlg/4416487.htm
3. Haroon Kharem, “David Walker: Pioneer of Black Nationalist Thought 1785-1830”; a website at squash.la.psu.edu/~plarson/smuseum/americas/ (site no longer available)
4. Eddie Becker, “Chronology on the history of slavery and racism: 1830 - The End,” at: innercity.org/holt/chron_1830_end.html
5. J.G. Melton, “The Encyclopedia of American Religions,” Volume I, Triumph Books, (1991), Volume II, Page 5
6. “Slavery and Religion in America: A time line 1440 - 1866,” at: ipl.org/ref/timeline/
7. J.G. Melton, op. cit., Volume II, Page 185
8. Dan Rogers, “The evidence of black people in the Bible,” at: wcg.org/wn/98May/all.htm
9. J.G. Melton, op. cit., Volume I, Page 211
10. M. Fiedler & L. Rabben, Ed., “Rome has spoken…A guide to forgotten Papal statements and how they have changed through the centuries,” Crossroad, (1998) Page 81.
11. Joel Panzer, “The Popes and Slavery,” Alba House, (1996) Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store Some reviewers at Amazon.com commented that this book is a useful source of Papal statements on slavery. However, the author is accused of bending the truth. Highlighting one example, a reviewer wrote: “Whereas he mentions the work of the Catholic priest, Bartolomeo de las Casas, in ending the enslavement of the indigenous peoples by the Spanish colonists, Fr. Panzer is completely silent about De las Casas’ suggestion that Africans be used as slaves instead.”
12. Leonard Kennedy, " ‘The Popes and Slavery’ — book review," Catholic Educator’s Resource Center," at: catholiceducation.org/

 

[Montalban]

Ah, shoe is on the other foot, Monty? Evading an answer? Still waiting…

You’re a funny guy. You ask me a question then demand I answer you within minutes of you asking. I’ve answered you. You’ve avoided my questions for sevearl days now

More sinned against than sinning!

 

[dolphinlove]

Then answer the question…baby.

I did answer the question, and as Montalban had stated in previous posts, the catholic church did attempt to help. But as we have also stated, the catholic church does not run the country, and therefore cant change the laws of the land.

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

The Catholic Church does not ‘control’ the Catholic population. They certainly can give directives over what is right or wrong, but each person’s free to act.

And act they did. Slaves.

The Church’s degree of punishment to ‘coerce’ them into acting is rather limited. Thus your challenge is false.

The Church has never had problems excommunicating anyone who displeases them. Your answer is weak.

Did it? In 1537 Pope Paul III said that no American Indian should be enslaved. Pope Innocent XI ruled that it was not permitted to buy or sell Africans who had been sized against their will. The Papacy condemned slavery or the slave trade in 1462, 1741, 1815 and 1839

As I SAID, condemned it in words, then looked the other way. How convenient! Your church has no teeth. They are the United Nations of Christendom.

See above

See above.

The Dutch are Protestants!

The Catholic Encyclopedia
books.google.com/books?id=L3gqAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=first+dutch+catholics&source=web&ots=eIRRRRqYS1&sig=h222SbuaHN7ofl0TGnpuy7IHv0A

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

I did answer the question, and as Montalban had stated in previous posts, the catholic church did attempt to help. But as we have also stated, the catholic church does not run the country, and therefore cant change the laws of the land.

Your Pope has no power? I never thought I’d hear a Catholic say that…baby.

 

[Montalban]

I’m sorry

No, you’re not.

, Monty. You wanted refs?

I assume you mean me, - taking liberties with my UserName already.

But no, I want an answer to the question I asked.

All you’ve done is attempted, by way of evasion to quote-mine to something I’ve not asked about.

And, you’re in such a hurry, that if you bothered to check, some of your links are dead (see #6). Further to that, they’re such general references anyway. Thus #12 is not a quote/reference but a summary of books available. … a list that doesn’t include the book mentioned in that reference of yours!

Even if it were there one must assume that you’re so devoid of evidence that you want people to go research the subject for you.

Now, back to my question. Who wrote that quote you made?

I think you’re avoiding it because
either;
a) you don’t know and won’t admit it
or
b) you suspect that I already know and am ready to use some information against you. Fear not. I’ve never seen the quote before. I’m truly interested in who said it, so I can go learn more about them.

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

You’re a funny guy. You ask me a question then demand I answer you within minutes of you asking. I’ve answered you. You’ve avoided my questions for sevearl days now

More sinned against than sinning!

Dance the night away, Monty. Simply using your tactics against you. Sucks, doesn’t it?

 

[Montalban]

The Church has never had problems excommunicating anyone who displeases them. Your answer is weak.

Perhaps it is, then how can it be condemned for not being able to do something?

In fact, you support the contention that they can’t, below… thus refuting yourself…

As I SAID, condemned it in words, then looked the other way. How convenient! Your church has no teeth. They are the United Nations of Christendom.

Thus, if all they can do is speak out against slavery, and they did this, as you agree, then you’ve no further reason to condemn them!

Well done!

The Catholic Encyclopedia
books.google.com/books?id=L3gqAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=first+dutch+catholics&source=web&ots=eIRRRRqYS1&sig=h222SbuaHN7ofl0TGnpuy7IHv0A

Man, you really need to check your web-references. There’s nothing there about the Dutch-Church relations over slavery

 

[Montalban]

Dance the night away, Monty. Simply using your tactics against you. Sucks, doesn’t it?

You’re even responding to the answers you’re continuing to claim I’ve not made

And you’ve STILL NOT ANSWERED ME

 

[dolphinlove]

Your Pope has no power? I never thought I’d hear a Catholic say that…baby.

Oh did i say the pope has no power? i dont recall i said that. baby

 

[dolphinlove]

You’re even responding to the answers you’re continuing to claim I’ve not made

And you’ve STILL NOT ANSWERED ME

im waiting with eager anticipation…

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

No, you’re not.

Nope. I’m not.

I assume you mean me, - taking liberties with my UserName already.

Aw, hurt your feelings?

But no, I want an answer to the question I asked.

Don’t know where I got it. Gave you plenty more. What, not enough? Gotta harp on the one I posted 100 posts ago?

All you’ve done is attempted, by way of evasion to quote-mine to something I’ve not asked about.

Riiiiiiight. So I’ve conceded. Don’t remember where I looked up that big ole’ 4 line quote. As I said, gave you tons more. Not good enough? Want more?

And, you’re in such a hurry, that if you bothered to check, some of your links are dead (see #6).

Oooooo, picky, picky.

Further to that, they’re such general references anyway. Thus #12 is not a quote/reference but a summary of books available. … a list that doesn’t include the book mentioned in that reference of yours!

Aw, poor kid. So refute the other ones instead of whining.

Even if it were there one must assume that you’re so devoid of evidence that you want people to go research the subject for you.

LOL. Dance, dance, dance.

Now, back to my question. Who wrote that quote you made?

Dunno, dunno, dunno.

I think you’re avoiding it because
either;
a) you don’t know and won’t admit it

I admit it! Whoooho! You WIN! Got me to admit I can’t find one quote. Yep, you win.

Now about the rest… Oh, I’m sorry. You want more? Just say so!

b) you suspect that I already know and am ready to use some information against you. Fear not. I’ve never seen the quote before. I’m truly interested in who said it, so I can go learn more about them.

You have me cornered. But fear not, I will diligently try to backtrack to that quote solely to provide you with its reference information.

Do we have another question, or do you two feel that you have sufficiently beaten me down for the evening?

 

[dolphinlove]

Nah, ill ask someone that will answer questions, thanks for asking however

 

[Montalban]

Nah, ill ask someone that will answer questions, thanks for asking however

It took two days for him to simply say “I don’t know”.

Hey, how are you anyway?

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

im waiting with eager anticipation…

Oh! Terribly sorry. Does the Catholic Church run America, Spain, Portugal, etc…

Hmmmm.

Well, ya got me there! I’d have to say no with capital letters!

But that wasn’t what we were talking about, were we, Ms. Dancing-as-fast-as-I-can.

The topic under debate was slavery IN America. And my question to YOU (which, by the way, you are masterfully avoiding…good tactic, I’ll pray for you) was:

“Does the Pope control the Catholic Church (and by extension the Catholic population) in America?”

Obviously, the answer is NO

Baby.

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

It took two days for him to simply say “I don’t know”.

Hey, how are you anyway?

I’m a 51-year old male nurse with a 25-year old daughter who knows EVERYTHING (just ask her.) Her mother died when she as 2, so it’s just been the two of us.

Want to start over again and just chat about our beliefs without all the attacks?

I’m willing if you are!

 

[dolphinlove]

It took two days for him to simply say “I don’t know”.

Hey, how are you anyway?

oh im doing very well lol

 

[WildEyedAtheist]

I’m a 51-year old male nurse with a 25-year old daughter who knows EVERYTHING (just ask her.) Her mother died when she as 2, so it’s just been the two of us.

Want to start over again and just chat about our beliefs without all the attacks?

I’m willing if you are!

Obviously you can see the senility creeping in! LOL.

I thought you asked how OLD I was!

 

[dolphinlove]

Oh! Terribly sorry. Does the Catholic Church run America, Spain, Portugal, etc…

Hmmmm.

Well, ya got me there! I’d have to say no with capital letters!

But that wasn’t what we were talking about, were we, Ms. Dancing-as-fast-as-I-can.

The topic under debate was slavery IN America. And my question to YOU (which, by the way, you are masterfully avoiding…good tactic, I’ll pray for you) was:

“Does the Pope control the Catholic Church (and by extension the Catholic population) in America?”

Obviously, the answer is NO

Baby.

There is a big difference between controlling a church and actually controlling people, or cant you tell the difference?