Atheism and treason

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Qoeleth

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It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
 
Well the Pledge of Allegiance wasn’t written until 1892 and even then it wasn’t until 1954 that ‘under God’ was added. (In God we trust was initially on coins starting in 1864 and eventually mandated on all money by law in 1956.)

When it comes to the United States, the Pledge really doesn’t have any official power nor is it required to be said except by MPs and Naturalized Citizens.

In addition, the US has the First Amendment which protect freedom to religion. That and public support for religious freedom would create havoc if someone started jailing atheists for treason when they were following the law.

The United States isn’t a fundamentalist country. (And that’s a good thing. Considering the original colonists were Protestant, we Catholics would be under persecution if it were.)
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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It’s not treason.
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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You think that the queen is head of state by divine right? And there’s me thinking that rejecting that line of thought was one of the reasons for the revolution.
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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It is not treason.

As for one nation under one God, I believe it’s Our Lord Jesus Christ you are referring to, and what does He teach? His teachings themselves nullify your conclusion.

Such a thing as I believe you are implying here (or how people will no doubt take it) would be tyranny.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
No it is not treason. Freedom of religion also means the freedom not to practice a religion.
 
mVitus said:
Well the Pledge of Allegiance wasn’t written until 1892 and even then it wasn’t until 1954 that ‘under God’ was added. (In God we trust was initially on coins starting in 1864 and eventually mandated on all money by law in 1956.)

When it comes to the United States, the Pledge really doesn’t have any official power nor is it required to be said except by MPs and Naturalized Citizens.

In addition, the US has the First Amendment which protect freedom to religion. That and public support for religious freedom would create havoc if someone started jailing atheists for treason when they were following the law.

The United States isn’t a fundamentalist country. (And that’s a good thing. Considering the original colonists were Protestant, we Catholics would be under persecution if it were.)
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Totally Agree
 
Not sure, but I think most states with kings and queens, have a parliaments to run the nations. Divine right rule just isn’t done anymore.
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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It is NOT treason.

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
 
That’s not treason. Treason is an unambiguous betrayal of one’s country. Waiting in a Book Directory or a Theater and shooting the President with a gun is treason. Attempting to succeed from the Union and killing 140,000 soldiers from the Armed Forces is treason.

Leaving out the “under God” part from pledge of allegiance is not treason. Nor is not saying the pledge, nor is burning an American Flag (the supreme court said it was a legal form of protest).

In court cases, anyone who does not wish to take an oath on a bible (an atheist, a non-christian, a member of a christian sect that doesn’t swear on bibles, etc) is permitted to take an affirmation instead.

So instead of saying, “I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing like the truth so help me God”, an atheist would say “I affirm to tell the whole truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under pains and penalties of perjury”.
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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This is “thought crime” territory. Seeing as treason is generally an act, such as purposely giving secret military info or equipment to foreign countries, or picking up arms against one’s country what one believes about the source of the leadership’s power is irrelevant provided they do not attempt to usurp them.
 
Just because they don’t believe or do not know God does not mean they never will - they have a whole life time to come to God - the guilty verdict is way too early. You don’t know what will happen and if these people will come to God - your assuming and passing judgement.
 
Crusaderbear said:
Not sure, but I think most states with kings and queens, have a parliaments to run the nations. Divine right rule just isn’t done anymore.
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No, it still holds. How else is the monarch chosen, if not by Divine Will? If it’s not by Divine Will, it’s mere accident of birth.

The present Queen of Great Britain and her territories is very religious, and I’m sure takes her role seriously as a responsibility from God.

I don’t see how a person who didn’t believe in Divine Right could take seriously monarchy as a valid form of government- or how their unconditional loyalty to the Crown could be trusted.
 
mVitus said:
Well the Queen isn’t the true head of England. Parliament is.
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She is not the Queen of England. She is the Queen of the UK (The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).
There is no English Parliament. The Parliament in Westminster is for the UK.
 
Qoeleth said:
It seems to me that atheism is, if properly considered, treason.

In countries with the Queen as Head of State, she is held to be ‘Queen by the Grace of God’. In the USA, the Pledge of Allegiance involves expressing belief in ‘one nation united under God.’ It seems that by believing the God does not exist, a rejection of the notion of the Sovereign Divine Right of the Crown is negated, as well as the notion of a ‘nation united under God.’ Therefore, it seems that atheists are guilty, ipso facto, of treason, at least in the USA and Commonwealth countries.
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Not really. If being an Atheist is treason, then surely so would being any other religion other than C of E, as that is the religion of Queen Elizabeth II?

As an aside, I looked up the definition of “treason” on Wikipedia and it stated that being a Catholic priest has also been classed as high treason in the past.
Qoeleth said:
No, it still holds. How else is the monarch chosen, if not by Divine Will? If it’s not by Divine Will, it’s mere accident of birth.
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It sort of is, to be honest. After her death, it is presumed Charles will be king because he was the first of her children to be born, and after his death, it is presumed to be William, as the eldest son of the heir presumptive.
Qoeleth said:
The present Queen of Great Britain and her territories is very religious, and I’m sure takes her role seriously as a responsibility from God.
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Yes, I believe she does. As she said in her Christmas speech in 2014:
For me, the life of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, whose birth we celebrate today, is an inspiration and an anchor in my life.
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A role model of reconciliation and forgiveness, he stretched out his hands in love, acceptance and healing. Christ’s example has taught me to seek to respect and value all people, of whatever faith or none.
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It also shows that she doesn’t consider Atheism to be treason.
Qoeleth said:
I don’t see how a person who didn’t believe in Divine Right could take seriously monarchy as a valid form of government- or how their unconditional loyalty to the Crown could be trusted.
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Quite. This has been challenged in the past, namely in France, Russia, and with Charles I. It didn’t end well for any of their leaders.

In the UK, at least, the Queen/monarchy isn’t the government. Divine right doesn’t exist anymore in the UK.

Lou
 
Lou2U said:
Not really. If being an Atheist is treason, then surely so would being any other religion other than C of E, as that is the religion of Queen Elizabeth II?

As an aside, I looked up the definition of “treason” on Wikipedia and it stated that being a Catholic priest has also been classed as high treason in the past.

It sort of is, to be honest. After her death, it is presumed Charles will be king because he was the first of her children to be born, and after his death, it is presumed to be William, as the eldest son of the heir presumptive.

Yes, I believe she does. As she said in her Christmas speech in 2014:

It also shows that she doesn’t consider Atheism to be treason.

Quite. This has been challenged in the past, namely in France, Russia, and with Charles I. It didn’t end well for any of their leaders.

In the UK, at least, the Queen/monarchy isn’t the government. Divine right doesn’t exist anymore in the UK.

Lou
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No- but the Queen authorises the government- hence the expression “Her Majesty’s Government”. She is Head of State, and it is to her that military offices, judges, etc. make their oath of loyalty.
 
Qoeleth said:
No- but the Queen authorises the government- hence the expression “Her Majesty’s Government”. She is Head of State, and it is to her that military offices, judges, etc. make their oath of loyalty.
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Right. But this is more ceremonial than legally binding. The Queen can’t really refuse the government, and the powers she does have in regards to agreeing or refusing bills aren’t used anymore. You may have heard that Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the Labour Party and the Opposition to the government refused to sing God Save The Queen at an event last year. It was branded as ‘disloyal’ and ‘immature’, but not treason.

Lou
 
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