Atheism, Existentialism, and The Meaning of Life

[buffgbob]

First off I want to say that I know existentialism is not strictly an atheist philosophy (it was created by a Christian after all), but I would like to tie these three subjects together. I also want to mention that I am not an atheist hating Christian. I have atheist friends and respect their opinions inasmuch as they are reasonable. We often have friendly debates about the existence of God, infallibility of the Church, and similar subjects.

I was sitting here the other day reading on of my essays on the necessity of God in the meaning of life, and it reminded me of this subject in general. I took a “Meaning of Life” class about two years ago. The class was fairly poor; the school I go to isn’t exactly known for philosophy (I’m an electromagnetic major). One thing that struck me, is that we would read existentialist essays about how life has no meaning, and unanimously the class would disagree. Half of our class were atheists. Let’s examine if this is reasonable for a moment.

First, what makes something meaningful? Maybe we can know what is meaningful by knowing what is meaningless. Most of us are familiar with Sisyphus. What makes his actions meaningless? One might say, “He’s not accomplishing anything!” His actions are for naught; they have no effect. Meaning in an action, life, or anything in particular is inherently tied to the effect that thing has. (Some might say it is tied to purpose, but this can be shown to be the same thing.) This is why some might say, “My children give my life meaning.” Their children are their effect which propagates through generation and humanity.

Existentialism understands this point when they say, “Life is absurd (meaningless.)” That is, all our struggles, desires, endeavors, what are they for? Ultimately, we know the sun will swallow this planet and humanity’s influence on the universe will be exactly naught. Given their premise (that there is no God), this is a reasonable and necessary conclusion. It’s what leads authors like Schaupenhaur to say (in my words), “Suicide is the most beautiful expression of freedom against the anarchy of absurdity.” Most importantly, it is intellectually honest.

What bothered me, is that faced with this stark reality everyone attempted to rationalize it away. Things like, “A man can have meaning in his life inasmuch as he can influence humanity to the greater good.” This is a very secular humanist sort of view, and it is accurate. The problem is, in no way can this be considered objectively meaningful. It is only objectively true inasmuch as humanity itself has meaning. In that sense, a man can only have meaning relative to humanity. I think it is clear that when one considers the scope of reality, the objective point of view can only lead to absurdity (lack of meaning.) One of my favorites is, “I don’t know why, but I feel everything is inherently meaningful.”

I agree. The conclusion of my essay was that everything has meaning inasmuch as it exists. But my foundational premise was exactly the opposite (that God exists.)

I won’t belabor you with my essay, but I wanted the opinion of atheists on this board. Is life absurd? If not, then how does it have meaning? Do you embrace existentialism?

 

[reen12]

buffgbob, I’m 62 years old, hold a degree in philosophy,
and have spent - literally - 50 years, thinking of ‘meaning.’

Are you familiar with Camus’ work? Sisyphus pushing that
boulder uphill, for eternity - only to see it roll back to the
bottom of the hill.

As I recall, it was in this context, with reference to Sisyphus,
that Camus spoke of l*'homme révolté.*

Man - attaining a dignity - in the face of the absurd,
by taking a stance of revolt -----> against such absurdity and meaninglessness.

Does each human being create his/her own meaning, in life?
Or is each human life endowed with meaning - by dint of the
existence of God, and eternal life?

God is Lord of all - even Lord of the Absurd?

reen12

 

[reen12]

In terms of ‘meaning’ -
If there is no God, how does one negotiate life…?

Part of Eastern thought would have it - that all
is a flow or phenomena. “Go with the flow.”]

That all phenomena arise, endure for a time, and fade away. [cease]

Held, too, is the thought that there is no ‘me.’
That I, too, am a phenomenon that came to be,
exists for a time, and then ceases existing.

exist = ex- + sistere - to stand out.
To stand out from the background, the void,
nothingness. No-thing-ness.

So, in a sense, when I am not thinking of ‘meaning,’
there is not felt need for meaning. I exist. I am.
I am to attend to the moment, in this flow of phenomena.

Apparently, Siddhartha Gautama [the ‘enlightended one’,
the buddha] had no patience with abstract questions.
As I recall, he held that such questions were not practical in nature.

We are to note, closely, our own experience.

To note the flow of phenomena, becoming detached from:

-like/dislike
-interest/no interest
-pleasant/unpleasant, etc.

For he held that it was attachment to phenomena that caused suffering. dukka]

Buddhism, to me, is a very practical way to negotiate life.
Off-load the abstract, and pay attention to the now.
Even necessary planning for the future, is an activity
done in the now. When this effort is completed, for the day,
one turns back to experiencing the flow of phenomena,
including my own present ‘experience.’

reen12

 

[buffgbob]

buffgbob, I’m 62 years old, hold a degree in philosophy,
and have spent - literally - 50 years, thinking of ‘meaning.’

Nice to meet you.

Are you familiar with Camus’ work? Sisyphus pushing that
boulder uphill, for eternity - only to see it roll back to the
bottom of the hill.

As I recall, it was in this context, with reference to Sisyphus,
that Camus spoke of l*'homme révolté.*

Man - attaining a dignity - in the face of the absurd,
by taking a stance of revolt -----> against such absurdity and meaninglessness.

I am somewhat familiar with Camus; I have read some of his work. On Sisyphus, I would say he approaches it in the correct way. That is to say he doesn’t make the argument that Sisyphus has meaning because it teaches us. Rather he takes the situation in a vacuum as it is meant. As such, he ascribes dignity to Sisyphus for fighting against absurdity which gives him meaning. But dignity only gives meaning inasmuch as it is a reality. It only has meaning inasmuch as reality in general has inherit meaning (or dignity in particular.) This is a statement I agree with, but as I said earlier; I agree because my premises are fundamentally different. Also, it is a bit over-analysis of Sisyphus which is metaphor with a clear meaning. It is appropriate though, because we are not as simple as Sisyphus.

Does each human being create his/her own meaning, in life?
Or is each human life endowed with meaning - by dint of the
existence of God, and eternal life?

I would say that every life does have inherit meaning given by God (that is, God created the reality.) However, man can act towards their meaning (or their own perfection.) That is, a man doesn’t create the very foundation for his meaningfulness, but can act towards making himself more meaningful.

God is Lord of all - even Lord of the Absurd?

reen12

I would say that nothing that is real is absurd. It follows God is not the Lord of the Absurd.

As far as the Buddhist ideas are concerned, it is hard to apply ideas of meaningfulness to Buddhism. However, when we do, from what I understand Buddhism is a search for meaninglessness, lack of desire, and non-existence. This is consistent with the idea of meaning I abstracted earlier. The difference is it is no longer something we should desire to obtain, but rather lack of it. Or rather lack of the desire to obtain the lack of it; literal nonexistence.

Buddhism may be a reasonable way to offload the anxiety caused by existentialism. It is one of the many reasons why many atheists are attracted to it. It does not, subsequently, create meaning.

 

[buffgbob]

PS sorry if I come across as combative. It is not even the remotely my intention. The article is merely personal hypothesis and I fully recognize it’s ability to err.

 

[reen12]

PS sorry if I come across as combative. It is not even the remotely my intention. The article is merely personal hypothesis and I fully recognize it’s ability to err.

Hello, buffgbob. No, not at all combative.
I’m delighted to exchange posts with someone who
is interested in existentialism.

quote: buffgbob

I would say that nothing that is real is absurd. It follows God is not the Lord of the Absurd.

In a technical sense, I agree. No problem. The difficulty is
that absurd things do happen, in life, and they take up room.

I had an exchange [Lord of the Absurd] a few years ago,
with another who endures mental illness, as do I -
and I have endured this, since the age of 12.

When one is having great difficulty [in given moments of time]
assessing reality [is this real, or delusional?] one comes to
know a great deal about the absurd.

No, my view won’t be found in circulation - in the halls of
academe, but the absurd does exist.

Yet since God remains, with those of us who are ill, in this fashion -
for some of us, He is Lord of the Absurd. [a different ‘geography’ pertains]

Like a surveyor, tapping out boundaries - sometimes the life
of those who endure suffering of the mind - requires Riemannian
geometry, to tap out boundaries - not that of Euclid.

How ken what’s real, what isn’t?

So Lord of the Absurd is simply a way to indicate that God
is Lord of every ‘condition’ - even that of the absurd.
No, my definiton won’t pass muster, given the canons of logic,
but that’s OK. And canons of logic are most necessary,
in their own vast realm, in life.
It’s just that I’ve found that life does not always measure up
to the tools provided for measuring.

‘Lord of the Absurd’ is a contradiction in terms.
I note this, with a sense of the wry.
No, this cannot ‘exist’ - yet it does.

---

St. John refers to Jesus as the Word of God.

The Logos.

Jesus as informing principle - and therefore source,
of all meaning.
Gorgeous theology. Perfectly elegant.

A gift, even - that John would present Jesus as Lord of Meaning.
Informing principle - of all that is.

The other principle, operative here, is this:

Truth is that which conforms with reality.
That’s why we have the term “consensus reality.”

Yet if one’s sense of the real is wounded,
due to illness of the mind, that condition, too,
is informed by Him…elsewise, it would not exist.

I’m quite well aware of the hoops, that I might jump through,
in ‘removing’ illness of this nature - from the realm of the absurd.

A reverse - of the magician’s art of pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

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I enjoyed the exchange, buffgbob. :tiphat:

Best,

reen*

 

[cudd]

I don’t think my life is objectively meaningful, but that doesn’t make any difference to me, because I experience it subjectively.

It doesn’t matter in my day to day experience whether or not something “out there” has a plan for me.

That is an interesting philosophical conundrum, but other than that, not a big issue in my daily life.

My life has meaning for me, and that’s enough since “me” is my only frame of reference for my life experience.

 

[Lilyflower]

Interestingly I once caught sight of a magazine called ‘The Athiest’

Browsing through it, was amazed at how many articles there were which discussed Christian faith.

Blessings and peace

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t think my life is objectively meaningful, but that doesn’t make any difference to me, because I experience it subjectively.

It doesn’t matter in my day to day experience whether or not something “out there” has a plan for me.

That is an interesting philosophical conundrum, but other than that, not a big issue in my daily life.

My life has meaning for me, and that’s enough since “me” is my only frame of reference for my life experience.

The reason I came back to God, was because I felt that life had grown more and more meaningless to me. It was getting depressing. Now that I have God in my life, I feel I have a purpose, if it is only to praise and thank Him, to have compassion for people around me and to know that I am forgiven for my transgressions, (which at one time, I really didn’t even think were transgressions!). God helps me in all ways. I don’t have to go through life alone any more.

 

[cudd]

The reason I came back to God, was because I felt that life had grown more and more meaningless to me. It was getting depressing. Now that I have God in my life, I feel I have a purpose, if it is only to praise and thank Him, to have compassion for people around me and to know that I am forgiven for my transgressions, (which at one time, I really didn’t even think were transgressions!). God helps me in all ways. I don’t have to go through life alone any more.

I expect it is different for one who has once known god, and lost the relationship, than for one who has never known a god. You once knew god as your frame of reference, so when that was gone, the thing you gauged your life by was missing.

I’m sure I likewise have reference points that I would feel lost without, that I have learned to use to give my life meaning. I’m glad you’ve found something that helps you navigate life, and keeps you sane. We all need that.

Some believers find it hard to accept that there are things other than their god that serve that function.

Indeed, I have had believers, thinking they were “saving” me, try to talk me out of the things that gave my life meaning! They try to show me how empty and pointless they are…much like atheists who try to convince believers their god is a fraud or imaginary.

I don’t see the point from either side to try to undermine the well being of the other.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I expect it is different for one who has once known god, and lost the relationship, than for one who has never known a god. You once knew god as your frame of reference, so when that was gone, the thing you gauged your life by was missing.

I’m sure I likewise have reference points that I would feel lost without, that I have learned to use to give my life meaning. I’m glad you’ve found something that helps you navigate life, and keeps you sane. We all need that.

Some believers find it hard to accept that there are things other than their god that serve that function.

Indeed, I have had believers, thinking they were “saving” me, try to talk me out of the things that gave my life meaning! They try to show me how empty and pointless they are…much like atheists who try to convince believers their god is a fraud or imaginary.

I don’t see the point from either side to try to undermine the well being of the other.

I’m curious. What sort of things serve that function? I have never found anything. I mean I have deep love for my son, and other members of my family, and I have a good friend who helps keep me sane.

But in the dark hours, when I used to find myself completely alone, there was no one but myself to turn to. Now I know God is always near me.

I’m not trying to tell you that you have to come to God. No one should be forced to. I’m just saying that it is so much easier and peaceful for me now.

 

[cudd]

I’m curious. What sort of things serve that function? I have never found anything. I mean I have deep love for my son, and other members of my family, and I have a good friend who helps keep me sane.

But in the dark hours, when I used to find myself completely alone, there was no one but myself to turn to. Now I know God is always near me.

I’m not trying to tell you that you have to come to God. No one should be forced to. I’m just saying that it is so much easier and peaceful for me now.

But you HAVE found something, you have found god that serves that function for you, that serves as your reference point, your anchor. The problems you had before, when you felt alone and rudderless are solved by having god to turn to.

that is one very common and apparently successful way of dealing with the human condition.

My point of reference is my place in the universe and humanity, the roles I fill and my relationship to the cosmos. The fact that many billions before me have dealt with the same human situations that I deal with, the fact that the sun rises each morning and gravity holds the planet in place. I look up into the sky, see the stars and clouds, feel the solid ground under my feet, hear water flowing and I sense my place in the order of things, neither the least, nor the greatest, but an integral part of a huge and marvelous system. My meaning is to play my part.

 

[Lilyflower]

But you HAVE found something, you have found god that serves that function for you, that serves as your reference point, your anchor. The problems you had before, when you felt alone and rudderless are solved by having god to turn to.

that is one very common and apparently successful way of dealing with the human condition.

My point of reference is my place in the universe and humanity, the roles I fill and my relationship to the cosmos. The fact that many billions before me have dealt with the same human situations that I deal with, the fact that the sun rises each morning and gravity holds the planet in place. I look up into the sky, see the stars and clouds, feel the solid ground under my feet, hear water flowing and I sense my place in the order of things, neither the least, nor the greatest, but an integral part of a huge and marvelous system. My meaning is to play my part.

I hear what you say but do you feel ‘connected’ to a living personified Entity?

Do you feel you have a personal relationship with the origin of it all?

If you do, when you disobey do you find things go wrong for you but when you listen and obey things uncannily and against all the odds work out for you?

If you agree, then I am interested what it is and to whom you speak.

I have regular dialogue with my Creator Father God. I am not alone. I am not worthy for Him to communicate with me, but communicate He does.

Blessings and peace

 

[cudd]

I hear what you say but do you feel ‘connected’ to a living personified Entity?

Do you feel you have a personal relationship with the origin of it all?

If you do, when you disobey do you find things go wrong for you but when you listen and obey things uncannily and against all the odds work out for you?

If you agree, then I am interested what it is and to whom you speak.

I have regular dialogue with my Creator Father God. I am not alone. I am not worthy for Him to communicate with me, but communicate He does.

Blessings and peace

No, I don’t feel a connection to some sort of entity.

I do feel a connection/relationship with the origin of it all, but it’s not like a person to person connection. I don’t relate to “everything” like I do to other people. I’m not sure if I can explain it, but I’ll try.

I do feel a relationship to all the stuff in the universe, I mean, we are related, in time, space, because we are all made of the same stuff and are subject to the same laws (physics and chemistry).

I don’t talk to these things or expect them to talk back. I act like a human and they act like what they are. The sun shines, and I enjoy the sunshine. That’s a relationship, but certainly not a personal one.

When I disobey what? I can’t disobey the laws of the universe, it’s not possible.

There are consequences, both internal and external to all behavior, and I experience them. Sometimes guilt, shame, regret, disgust with my own behavior, sometimes pride, joy, accomplishment, a sense of belonging are the result.

I don’t ever feel that karma or some invisible spirit is punishing or rewarding me for things I do.

Sometimes I do speak to things that are not human, but I think that is just human nature, to relate the way we are most used to and most fluent. Like I’ll say hi to the sun, or birds, or say to my car “Come on baby, start up for mama”. But I don’t think these things will talk back to me.

Or sometimes I’ll say “world, you are awesome”, or just say to nothing in particular “it’s going to be one of those days, isnt’ it?”

but I don’t talk to the universe thinking it listens to me. Heck, even most people don’t really listen to one another. They sit politely and let you vent, but few really are interested in what’s going on. Everyone seems pretty caught up in their own situations. So even when I talk to friends, I don’t expect much of a response.

 

[Lilyflower]

No, I don’t feel a connection to some sort of entity.

I do feel a connection/relationship with the origin of it all, but it’s not like a person to person connection. I don’t relate to “everything” like I do to other people. I’m not sure if I can explain it, but I’ll try.

I do feel a relationship to all the stuff in the universe, I mean, we are related, in time, space, because we are all made of the same stuff and are subject to the same laws (physics and chemistry).

I don’t talk to these things or expect them to talk back. I act like a human and they act like what they are. The sun shines, and I enjoy the sunshine. That’s a relationship, but certainly not a personal one.

**When I disobey what? **I can’t disobey the laws of the universe, it’s not possible.

There are consequences, both internal and external to all behavior, and I experience them. Sometimes guilt, shame, regret, disgust with my own behavior, sometimes pride, joy, accomplishment, a sense of belonging are the result.

I** don’t ever feel that karma or some invisible spirit is punishing or rewarding me for things I do.**
Sometimes I do speak to things that are not human, but I think that is just human nature, to relate the way we are most used to and most fluent. Like I’ll say hi to the sun, or birds, or say to my car “Come on baby, start up for mama”. But I don’t think these things will talk back to me.

Or sometimes I’ll say “world, you are awesome”, or just say to nothing in particular “it’s going to be one of those days, isnt’ it?”

but I don’t talk to the universe thinking it listens to me. Heck, even most people don’t really listen to one another. They sit politely and let you vent, but few really are interested in what’s going on. Everyone seems pretty caught up in their own situations. So even when I talk to friends, I don’t expect much of a response.

My emphasis:

I don’t ‘expect’ God to speak to me or better communicate with me so that when He does, it is to complete surprise. It is my belief what I experience is what everyone else experiences or at least experienced by millions of people.

We know when we have offended the moral law. It is possible to keep the civil law while breaching the moral one [and vice versa]. But we also know when we have not followed the promptings from within. Take for example on a time pressed journey you pass somone thumbing a lift. You pass by as you are in a hurry. You feel a compelling urge to stop. It is impossible to drive on. You stop and the fella is no random hitchiker,he is in an awful crises. How did you know to pass the others but stop for this one? Where did the prompting come from?

I don’t ever feel an invisible spirit is punishing me. But I often feel that by ignoring the promptings I end up punishing myself by not doing what I should have done where logic says there was no reason to follow the prompting only to discover later there are other factors at work I could not possibly have predicted and had I followed the prompting, I would have saved myself an awful lot of hassle and stress.

Often in Church before the Blessed Sacrament or in the presence of the Tabernacle I have a very powerful sense of A N Other Person being there and it is amazingly peaceful, such peace as not to be found elsewhere on this earth.

Blessings and peace

Blessings and peace

 

[cudd]

When I don’t act according to how I believe I should act, (inner promptings) then yes, I do feel badly about it. And when I do what I believe is the right action, even when others might not agree, or notice, I do get a sense of inner satisfaction.

I don’t notice that following or not following my inner promptings causes other aspects of my life to reward or punish me, indeed, very often the opposite.

At work, several people on my crew divide up the work in an unfair manner, so their production appears high, though they are actually doing less work, because they take all the easy fast work, rather than share it out. I don’t believe I should act that way, so in the end, doing what I believe does NOT reward me. I get credit for less work, though I’ve done more, and the extra wear and tear on my body negatively effects the rest of my life. But, my inner prompting tell me not to screw other people, so I don’t. I guess their inner promptings tell them something else.

Some of those people are very religious. They are always talking about their god, singing songs of praise, wearing t-shirts with religious themes etc, yet they don’t seem to have any inner prompting to share the work justly.

As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t really see that having a god, or religion would bring me more peace, or make me a better person. I interact with highly religious people all the time, and their lives and actions don’t reflect that they have something wonderful that I am missing. They are just people, some very “good” and others…not so much.

Maybe their having a god, who forgives their behavior helps them rest easier at night. I don’t have one, and know if I mistreated my co-workers I wouldn’t be able to sleep peacefully at night. So I don’t, because I don’t like the consequences.

I likewise have places that I feel at peace and not alone, as you do in church, maybe you do not find that feeling anywhere else, but others might.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

When I don’t act according to how I believe I should act, (inner promptings) then yes, I do feel badly about it. And when I do what I believe is the right action, even when others might not agree, or notice, I do get a sense of inner satisfaction.

I don’t notice that following or not following my inner promptings causes other aspects of my life to reward or punish me, indeed, very often the opposite.

At work, several people on my crew divide up the work in an unfair manner, so their production appears high, though they are actually doing less work, because they take all the easy fast work, rather than share it out. I don’t believe I should act that way, so in the end, doing what I believe does NOT reward me. I get credit for less work, though I’ve done more, and the extra wear and tear on my body negatively effects the rest of my life. But, my inner prompting tell me not to screw other people, so I don’t. I guess their inner promptings tell them something else.

Some of those people are very religious. They are always talking about their god, singing songs of praise, wearing t-shirts with religious themes etc, yet they don’t seem to have any inner prompting to share the work justly.

As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t really see that having a god, or religion would bring me more peace, or make me a better person. I interact with highly religious people all the time, and their lives and actions don’t reflect that they have something wonderful that I am missing. They are just people, some very “good” and others…not so much.

Maybe their having a god, who forgives their behavior helps them rest easier at night. I don’t have one, and know if I mistreated my co-workers I wouldn’t be able to sleep peacefully at night. So I don’t, because I don’t like the consequences.

I likewise have places that I feel at peace and not alone, as you do in church, maybe you do not find that feeling anywhere else, but others might.

It’s very apparent that you are a good person with a conscience, and a high sense of morality.

Yes, I believe there are many “Christians” who aren’t really trying to follow the path of Christ, they are the hypocrites that Jesus condemned, for their religion is all for show.

However, just because there are these kinds of people shouldn’t stop you from having a relationship with God. To me, it seems like you are nearer to Him than you think!

 

[cudd]

It’s very apparent that you are a good person with a conscience, and a high sense of morality.

Yes, I believe there are many “Christians” who aren’t really trying to follow the path of Christ, they are the hypocrites that Jesus condemned, for their religion is all for show.

However, just because there are these kinds of people shouldn’t stop you from having a relationship with God. To me, it seems like you are nearer to Him than you think!

I don’t not have a relationship with a god because some people don’t act very nicely. I don’t have a relationship with a god because so far, I’ve not met one.

People tell me I SHOULD have a relationship with god, almost unvariably THEIR god, because of all the wonderful things it will do to my life, yet they don’t have the evidence that their god filled life is any more satisfying, successful, less stressful, or disciplined than mine. They keep trying to point out that I am lacking, and to be pitied and that my life is meaningless, empty, etc, yet I see no evidence that what they are saying is true.

I do not wish any fewer blessings or happiness on believers, if their god richly rewards them, that is lovely, but I don’t see it in their lives. Nor do I experience the lack they tell me I must experience due to not knowing their god.

I can see how one could “logic” that an atheists life MUST be meaningless, but it doesn’t mean it is that way in real life, I guess the same way that “logically” one who has all the grace and assurances promised by a faith, doesn’t always seem to live as though that is true.

Maybe the deciding factor is not religion, or knowing a god, but something else.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t not have a relationship with a god because some people don’t act very nicely. I don’t have a relationship with a god because so far, I’ve not met one.

People tell me I SHOULD have a relationship with god, almost unvariably THEIR god, because of all the wonderful things it will do to my life, yet they don’t have the evidence that their god filled life is any more satisfying, successful, less stressful, or disciplined than mine. They keep trying to point out that I am lacking, and to be pitied and that my life is meaningless, empty, etc, yet I see no evidence that what they are saying is true.

I do not wish any fewer blessings or happiness on believers, if their god richly rewards them, that is lovely, but I don’t see it in their lives. Nor do I experience the lack they tell me I must experience due to not knowing their god.

I can see how one could “logic” that an atheists life MUST be meaningless, but it doesn’t mean it is that way in real life, I guess the same way that “logically” one who has all the grace and assurances promised by a faith, doesn’t always seem to live as though that is true.

Maybe the deciding factor is not religion, or knowing a god, but something else.

I don’t think your life is meaningless, and I’m sure God doesn’t think your life is meaningless. I think you are young, and you are turned off by hypocrisy. I can relate because I was there for years.

Some day, though, I hope you might just pick up the New Testament and start by reading John. Or pick up the Old Testament and try reading Job. I think you will be amazed by the wisdom and beauty in those books. You seem like a very sensitive and intelligent person, I wish you much happiness in life.

 

[cudd]

I don’t think your life is meaningless, and I’m sure God doesn’t think your life is meaningless. I think you are young, and you are turned off by hypocrisy. I can relate because I was there for years.

Some day, though, I hope you might just pick up the New Testament and start by reading John. Or pick up the Old Testament and try reading Job. I think you will be amazed by the wisdom and beauty in those books. You seem like a very sensitive and intelligent person, I wish you much happiness in life.

Young! Nearly 50. lol.

I have read both those books. There are many great books in the Bible and lots of wisdom.

And it’s not the hypocrisy that bothers me so much as the genuine lack of something materially different in the lives of believers vs, those who don’t believe. It’s not just that people fail to do what they say they believe, but it seems that if they or their lives are filled with the Holy Spirit, then they couldn’t help but BE different.

If someone has an actual real god dwelling within them, how can it not be apparent, in spite of their own human failings?

Why doesn’t having god in their lives, in their hearts and souls make any difference?