Atheism in Europe as bad as percieved?

[scapularkid8]

There seems to be the overarching assumption and possibly stereotype that Atheism/relativism in Europe (particularly Western) is quite bad. Is this true? From the Europeans my age (18-19) I’ve talked to about religion, they seem like they’re genuinely searching for something… they just aren’t confident about looking in the Catholic Church because that seems to be associated with old people and injustices (the Spanish Inquisition?). They’re individuals of good will so I have a very hard time reconciling the fact that just because they’re doubting the Church (most of them believe in God), they would be sent to hell. That’s not a God I would want to worship.

But if that’s the case, then what’s the point of someone diligently following all the precepts of the Chuch (which I try to)?

This bothers me.

 

[PatrickJT914]

There seems to be the overarching assumption and possibly stereotype that Atheism/relativism in Europe (particularly Western) is quite bad. Is this true? From the Europeans my age (18-19) I’ve talked to about religion, they seem like they’re genuinely searching for something… they just aren’t confident about looking in the Catholic Church because that seems to be associated with old people and injustices (the Spanish Inquisition?). They’re individuals of good will so I have a very hard time reconciling the fact that just because they’re doubting the Church (most of them believe in God), they would be sent to hell. That’s not a God I would want to worship.

When you’ve talked to the European teens did the topic of World Youth Day come up? Or the fact that Pope John Paul II had a great love and challenge for young people. Even Papa Benedict XVI has done the same. What about Youth ministry, do they have any type of Youth ministry programs in their parish or colleges? (Campus ministries) What do they know all the good that the Catholic Church has done for Europe and the rest of the world? Opening up, maintaining schools, colleges,universities, hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, food pantries, poor houses. Caring for the sick, elderly,unwed mothers,abandoned children,cast offs from society,abused people,the poor. Bringing civilization and education to the barbarians. Helping and encouraging the arts that hepled along the Renassiance period. Have they not seen or heard about moderns saints like Mother Teresa or past saints who did great wonders with sacrifice, prayer, obedience, doing for others, loving as Jesus loved, fasting, etc. Yes the Church does have its black moments in history. We should not run away from those problems, we should acknowledge that human beings can and do make sinful choices. Bad mistakes and errors of judgement. The Spanish Inquistion although bad was not as bad as people seem to think. Yeah, we had a black mark in our Church, but we will try not to do that again. Because hopefully we learned from history and moved on. We all have doubts from time to time. That is part of learning. Many, many people including the saints stayed in the Church to find out answers. Who can forget good old St. Thomas the Apostle, boy was he a doubter. He had to actually touch the wounds of Jesus before he believed. Jesus said to St. Thomas blessed are you who have seen. Jesus then alluded to people who were not present. How blessed are those who believe but have not seen. It takes faith.
Will God send people to hell?, Only if people aren’t reconciled with Him when they die.

But if that’s the case, then what’s the point of someone diligently following all the precepts of the Chuch (which I try to)?

Try not to think about what others are thinking or doing. You keep right on following the Church’s precepts as much as you can. Paul’s letter to Timothy says, " Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity." 1 Timothy 4:12

This bothers me.

P.S. Didn’t most of the old people (Senior citizens and/or elders) start off as young people growing up in the Church?

P.S.S. I noticed by your public profile you will turn 19, very soon. So, if I may, I’d like to send you an early birthday greeting. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!:clapping: :dancing: and blessing

 

[Maxply]

Well, from what I can tell, there’s a growing concern in America about the “birth dearth” in Europe. I suppose it’s a fear that this demographic change will happen here, to some extent.

We DO get stats that say about 5% of Europeans go to church. This seems (a) odd, and (b) strange, since there are a lot of beautiful churches across Europe. And again, some related fear that this might be a trend heading to these shores.

Go to church. Why be skeptical? There are limits to human reason and certain things that rational skepticism blocks you from seeing. Faith plus reason makes the most sense of all.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

The far-right in the US clearly want to alienate US citizens from their European cousins.

Try telling an Irishman, a Pole, a Spaniard or an Italian that they live in an atheist country.
:nope:

 

[gochrist9436]

The far-right in the US clearly want to alienate US citizens from their European cousins.

Try telling an Irishman, a Pole, a Spaniard or an Italian that they live in an atheist country.
:nope:

Now don’t be blaming things on the far right. While you are certainly right that the countries you mentioned are still deeply faithful, countries such as Germany, France, Great Britan, and the Scandanvian countries have all gone athiest, unfortunatly.

 

[valient_Lucy]

The far-right in the US clearly want to alienate US citizens from their European cousins.

Try telling an Irishman, a Pole, a Spaniard or an Italian that they live in an atheist country.
:nope:

Now don’t be blaming things on the far right. While you are certainly right that the countries you mentioned are still deeply faithful, countries such as Germany, France, Great Britan, and the Scandanvian countries have all gone athiest, unfortunatly.

While I have never been to Spain, can either of you please explain to me how a country where two thirds of the country approve of gay marriage (which Spain legalized in 2004) and less than one fourth of the population attend religious services once a month could be considered “faithful?”

Of course, this is coming from me, and I would bet $50 that in 300 years Notre Dame, St. James of Compostela, and other famous churches in Europe will either be museums or mosques. But I tend to be pretty pessimistic about such things. So take whatever I say with a grain (or rather a pound) of salt.

 

[scapularkid8]

While I have never been to Spain, can either of you please explain to me how a country where two thirds of the country approve of gay marriage (which Spain legalized in 2004) and less than one fourth of the population attend religious services once a month could be considered “faithful?”

Of course, this is coming from me, and I would bet $50 that in 300 years Notre Dame, St. James of Compostela, and other famous churches in Europe will either be museums or mosques. But I tend to be pretty pessimistic about such things. So take whatever I say with a grain (or rather a pound) of salt.

The one thing I would say in response to Spain in particular is to look at the specific way in which her society shifts religiously. At one point the majority was Muslim for nearly a thousand years…followed by the, arguably, most Catholic/religiously zealous era it has seen yet. Just a thought.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

While you are certainly right that the countries you mentioned are still deeply faithful, countries such as Germany, France, Great Britan, and the Scandanvian countries have all gone athiest, unfortunatly

According to Wikipedia Christian populations are: Germany 64% . France 54%. Uk 71.6%. Sweden 75%. Norway 83%

While I have never been to Spain, can either of you please explain to me how a country where two thirds of the country approve of gay marriage (which Spain legalized in 2004) and less than one fourth of the population attend religious services once a month could be considered “faithful?”

Only 23% of the US is Catholic (Spain 76%) and as for US Church attendance; people in glass houses…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#Church_attendance

As for Gay Marraige approval in the US

The poll found that the majority (58%) of Americans remained opposed to same-sex marriages, while the minority (36%) support them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States_public_opinion

Of course, this is coming from me, and I would bet $50 that in 300 years Notre Dame, St. James of Compostela, and other famous churches in Europe will either be museums or mosques. But I tend to be pretty pessimistic about such things.

I prefer Hope.

So take whatever I say with a grain (or rather a pound) of salt

How about a few metric grammes?

The one thing I would say in response to Spain in particular is to look at the specific way in which her society shifts religiously. At one point the majority was Muslim for nearly a thousand years…followed by the, arguably, most Catholic/religiously zealous era it has seen yet. Just a thought.

With all due respect, that was the result of a Muslim invasion. The indigenous Spanish kept to their faith and finally recalimed Spain for the Church during the reconquista.

Now don’t be blaming things on the far right.

I am not blaming the far-right. I am merely stating the fact that they promote anti-European sentiment within the US.

 

[Isambard]

I got a sneaking suspicion a few folks in this thread don’t know the difference between atheism and secularism.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I got a sneaking suspicion a few folks in this thread don’t know the difference between atheism and secularism.

That’s true, it is important to remember the difference.

 

[valient_Lucy]

According to Wikipedia Christian populations are: Germany 64% . France 54%. Uk 71.6%. Sweden 75%. Norway 83%

Only 23% of the US is Catholic (Spain 76%) and as for US Church attendance; people in glass houses…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#Church_attendance

As for Gay Marraige approval in the US

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States_public_opinion

I prefer Hope.

How about a few metric grammes?

Metric grammes are fine. And I do not believe, and have never believed, that the US was some sort of bastion of faith against an atheist Europe. As my brother and I were recently discussing, America is really just as secular as Europe, in the sense that neither populations really cares about religion as a whole. However, the US government, particularly the Republican party evangelical Christians, like to cling to America’s roots in Protestant Christianity, whereas governments in countries such as France and Spain maintain a strict secularism. However, neither Europe nor the US as a whole really care about religion.

As for people identifying as Christians in the countries above, they are most likely identifying as Christians for the same reasons that Americans identify themselves as Christians, because they’re not Jewish. My paternal grandmother is that way. She identifies as Christian because she’s not Jewish, and “because non-religious people don’t have holidays.”

I actually don’t blame Spain for not being faithful. Spain’s Catholic hierarchy allied itself with Francisco Franco. If I was Spanish and had to suffer through Franco, I might hate the Church too.

Feel free to hope, and put up $50. But I think that given the birth rates in Europe and the influx of Muslim immigrants, secular Europe is going to stay secular, before eventually becoming Muslim.

 

[Kaninchen]

Feel free to hope, and put up $50. But I think that given the birth rates in Europe and the influx of Muslim immigrants, secular Europe is going to stay secular, before eventually becoming Muslim.

Given similar conjectural realities, it’s obvious that they will have to learn Spanish to talk to Americans.

 

[scapularkid8]

But I think that given the birth rates in Europe and the influx of Muslim immigrants, secular Europe is going to stay secular, before eventually becoming Muslim.

Should I say it…better a moderate Muslim population than an ardently atheist one. At least one of the two understands the importance of religious monuments if that’s what you’re worried about?

 

[Kaninchen]

Should I say it…better a moderate Muslim population than an ardently atheist one. At least one of the two understands the importance of religious monuments if that’s what you’re worried about?

How about ardently indifferent?

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

Given similar conjectural realities, it’s obvious that they will have to learn Spanish to talk to Americans.

What’s wrong with Spanish? It is a beautiful language. Very close to Latin BTW.

I don’t get it.

 

[annem]

I actually don’t blame Spain for not being faithful. Spain’s Catholic hierarchy allied itself with Francisco Franco. If I was Spanish and had to suffer through Franco, I might hate the Church too.

What about the faithful Catholics who were killed or imprisoned by the communists during that wretched time? The priests shot, the nuns raped and killed? Franco was bad, yes, but surely, surely, the atheist communists were just plain evil. And if they had taken over there would soon have been gulags where millions were killed.

A friend of mine with three children just returned from living for a few years in Spain. Where people frequently stopped her on the street to decry her large number of children. And this at a time when Spain appears to be poised to disappear because of the lack of children.

I was in France recently where I and one elderly woman were the only attendants at Mass. The incredible, beautiful statues and art work were covered with dust. At times I felt like weeping, things have changed so dramatically.

Quo vadis Europe?

God bless, Annem

 

[scapularkid8]

What I’m curious to know is if there is any youth movement in any of these countries? Are there any groups rising up and making a change? I know as a Christian I’m supposed to have Hope, and I desperately want to, but it’s so hard to see any type of New Springtime occurring in Europe like it is in the Church here in the US.

Could all of this European indifference and secularism be a product of extreme Materialism? I know usually USA is known for its Materialistic Capitalism, but after the formulation of the European Union, Europe has become a Materialist haven: where are US fashions being imported from? Who has the most powerful currency (currently)? Where is all the radical GDP growth occurring?----> Europe.

I guess the question that follows that is: Can the EU remain economically buoyant or is this just a ballooning phase in it’s economic pre-maturity?

 

[Kaninchen]

Could all of this European indifference and secularism be a product of extreme Materialism?

I would argue that it’s more the death of idealism - the experience of Fascism, Communism and the cataclysm of the Second World War (inter alia with most institutions compromised in one way or another).

 

[Kaninchen]

What’s wrong with Spanish?

It was put forward that Europe would end up Muslim, I merely suggested that (allowing for the fact that illegal immigration into the US is another American Conservative obsession) that, on similar levels of reality, all these European Muslims would have to speak Spanish to Americans (because Spanish speakers would be the majority).

It is a beautiful language. Very close to Latin BTW.

Sfortunatamente non parlo spagnolo ma il mio italiano non è niente male.

 

[una_ecclesia]

What I’m curious to know is if there is any youth movement in any of these countries? Are there any groups rising up and making a change? I know as a Christian I’m supposed to have Hope, and I desperately want to, but it’s so hard to see any type of New Springtime occurring in Europe like it is in the Church here in the US.

Maybe there is going to have to be more missionary work… except this time it will be to the Europeans by the rising number of Catholics in Asia and Africa (wouldn’t that be ironic?).

Could all of this European indifference and secularism be a product of extreme Materialism? I know usually USA is known for its Materialistic Capitalism, but after the formulation of the European Union, Europe has become a Materialist haven: where are US fashions being imported from? Who has the most powerful currency (currently)? Where is all the radical GDP growth occurring?----> Europe.

I don’t think materialism is entirely responsible for secularism in Europe like kanichen mentioned… but it probably has some effect.

I recently went to the poorest area in Santo Domingo (in the Dominican Republic, just in case some here don’t know) in order to do some mission, where poverty and crime were very commonplace. The state of the church and morality in the country is not exactly perfect there either (many claim to Catholics because of the culture). Nonetheless when I went to daily mass (not just the sunday mass) the church in the area was full, and not just of elderly people either, but of young people and families. Not only that, even amidst all the poverty those living there lived happily. I guess when one has little to nothing he or she looks to God to fufill his or her needs instead.