Atheism is not just about pointing out the fallacies of religion...

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whatever said:
And the theist is reduced to make the “evidence” fit the conclusion. Remember that he who makes the claim doesn’t get to set the bar on the other side’s evidentiary standards.
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Then the other side should stop the dialogue and ignore the Theist altogether.

CDL
 
estesbob said:
If they were firm in their beliefs they would.
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If atheists were as firm in their beliefs as they claim to be, you would think they could care less about what other people choose to believe. After all if they were correct then we all cease to exist when we die, and as we all know eventually the Earth gets swallowed up by the sun way way way into the future if things are left to their natural course… so in the grand scheme of things anything that any human being does would be completely meaningless in the end.
 
exoflare said:
If atheists were as firm in their beliefs as they claim to be, you would think they could care less about what other people choose to believe. After all if they were correct then we all cease to exist when we die
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You forget an important part: Atheists believe in life before death. They don’t care what other people choose to believe, but they care very much how others act and how their chosen beliefs shape the interactions between people of different beliefs.

I could turn it around and say that if theists were as firm in their beliefs as they claim to be, you would think could care less about what other people choose to believe. If they were correct then we’re all judged by a superior authority when we die. By and large, theists that adhere to organized religions don’t seem to be content to let others believe and act as they see fit, though.
 
whatever said:
By and large, theists that adhere to organized religions don’t seem to be content to let others believe and act as they see fit, though.
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Depends what you mean by ‘content’.

We think we are right, and we think this is important, so we try to convince others the same. I prefer to be generous and believe that is why you are here…you think you are right, you think this is important, so you want to convince others the same.

We agree that this topic is important. We should BOTH be offended by the people that say “Yeah Yeah, whatever. Burn some incense, worship some crystals, I don’t believe any of it but its fun to be deluded.”

BOTH sides have overdone it in different places and times. Cry that it was really about econimics all you want…I live in the People’s Republic of China. I know people that have suffered and endured real hardship for their Catholicism under a government that considered atheism its state religion.

In reference to your last post: yeah, lots of theists are there for emotional reasons. And because their parents were.

The point wasn’t to point out a difference between us…both of our ranks are full of these sort of people…the point was that atheists hold up Science and Reason as their banner. Catholicism demands faith and an effort towards virtuous life. People can do that for emotional, intellectual, philosophical, whatever reasons and it is equally valid.

But the people that hold up atheism, who call Christians irrational but couldn’t spot an invalid syllogism to save themselves…they can’t hold up a banner of science and reason as theirs. They aren’t atheists because they have reasoned out beliefs holding it out…they are atheists becuase they were bored in Church, or they don’t like the idea of a just God (an evil God is less scary than a good God…thats why good Christians are sometimes called “God-fearing people”), or they just never managed to get past the first two chapters of Genesis or to understand the scientific method and so treat scientific laws like they were gospel as opposed to a sophisticated method of guessing.
 
estesbob said:
Looks to me like you have spent way too much time around 5year olds. So if I dont debate the way YOU want me too I am akin to a Kindegartener?Do I have to go sit in the corner while those wiser than me discuss “adult” things. Or am I to be given a time out?
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I stand by what I said. While you speak in a childish way, you are acting childish.

If you don’t want to be considered childish, don’t speak like a child.

Let me explain:

I am not a stupid man.

I was not a stupid man two years ago.

When whatever calls Christian beliefs ludicrous, he is saying I am a stupid man now.

When you call atheistic beliefs ludicrous, you are saying I was a stupid man two years ago.

I am not a stupid man. I was not a stupid man.

Yes, I reject as childish any argument that takes as an axiom “You are stupid.”, on either side.

This is a credible, intelligent debate. There are stupid people on both sides, but neither side is stupid.
 
trentonzero said:
We think we are right, and we think this is important, so we try to convince others the same. I prefer to be generous and believe that is why you are here…you think you are right, you think this is important, so you want to convince others the same.
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May I remind you of this section’s title, Apologetics? No need to be generous, I am not setting out to convince anybody of anything.
I know people that have suffered and endured real hardship for their Catholicism under a government that considered atheism its state religion.
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That government considers its form of communism the state religion.
they are atheists becuase they were bored in Church,
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Just like everybody else, I am an atheist from birth and did stay that way. On the few occasions I have set foot in a church, I was indeed bored, but more importantly I felt pity for the believers.
or they don’t like the idea of a just God
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Atheists have problems with the idea of a god, any god. All the atheists I know would beg to differ that the Christian god is just, though.
they just never managed to get past the first two chapters of Genesis
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It’s been a few decades since I read Genesis, but you may well be right about the second chapter being the end of it.
or to understand the scientific method and so treat scientific laws like they were gospel as opposed to a sophisticated method of guessing.
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That’s what atheists consider religion, a method of guessing. I don’t know any atheists who are confused about the scientific method and the nature of science, but I can’t know them all.
 
trentonzero said:
When whatever calls Christian beliefs ludicrous, he is saying I am a stupid man now.
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I respect your right to believe what you will, but I don’t have to respect your beliefs. Any inferences you draw from my opinions about your beliefs and your person are entirely your own, but I note that stupidity is only one of many possibilities. I wouldn’t presume to call you stupid based on what little I know about you.

By the way, in my experience it is a rare theist who respects the beliefs or lack of belief of unbelievers and character attacks are all too common on their side.

Whatever.
 
whatever said:
You forget an important part: Atheists believe in life before death. They don’t care what other people choose to believe, but they care very much how others act and how their chosen beliefs shape the interactions between people of different beliefs.

I could turn it around and say that if theists were as firm in their beliefs as they claim to be, you would think could care less about what other people choose to believe. If they were correct then we’re all judged by a superior authority when we die. By and large, theists that adhere to organized religions don’t seem to be content to let others believe and act as they see fit, though.
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This isn’t true either. You make a cute statement about believing in life before death but you refuse to say why that matters to an atheist. You simply ignore all meaning in life and expect us to believe your profession that you care about this life. You could respond by insisting that it doesn’t matter to you what we care but if you do you have simply placed yourself back in the position of not caring about this life or of pretending not to care about this life or of lying about caring about this life.

CDL
 
whatever said:
You forget an important part: Atheists believe in life before death. They don’t care what other people choose to believe, but they care very much how others act and how their chosen beliefs shape the interactions between people of different beliefs.
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And again, the question is "why should they?"

If everyone just ceases to exist after some point, and it is also certain that left to the natural course of things humankind as a whole will also cease to exist, then it only stands to reason that in the scope of eternity every single human life is utterly meaningless.

Based on this outcome, it really does not matter what people choose to do in the first place! Things will all turn out the same in the end.
I could turn it around and say that if theists were as firm in their beliefs as they claim to be, you would think could care less about what other people choose to believe. If they were correct then we’re all judged by a superior authority when we die.
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You could, but then you would be making the rash assumption that all theists are purely selfish and do everything for their own personal gain (which directly contradicts Christian teaching to begin with). The funny thing is, people that selfish probably don’t stand much of a chance at obtaining heaven to begin with…
By and large, theists that adhere to organized religions don’t seem to be content to let others believe and act as they see fit, though.
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Yeah, for the same reason I wouldn’t “respect the beliefs” of someone who thought they were Superman and started trying to fly off of tall buildings… geez that would be such a selfish gesture on my part. :rolleyes:
 
trentonzero said:
I stand by what I said. While you speak in a childish way, you are acting childish.

If you don’t want to be considered childish, don’t speak like a child.
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Can you get more conesceding? It appears that you are only capable of speking to people not mature enough to quetion what you say
Let me explain:

I am not a stupid man.

I was not a stupid man two years ago.

When whatever calls Christian beliefs ludicrous, he is saying I am a stupid man now.

When you call atheistic beliefs ludicrous, you are saying I was a stupid man two years ago.

I am not a stupid man. I was not a stupid man.

Yes, I reject as childish any argument that takes as an axiom “You are stupid.”, on either side.

This is a credible, intelligent debate. There are stupid people on both sides, but neither side is stupid.
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So its all about “you” We have to discuss things the way "you " want us to or we are “childish”. Perhaps you would be more csmfortable discussing this with your 5 year olds. I suspect they dont even know the meaning of words “arrogant” and “condescending”
 
GregoryPalamas said:
trentonzero,

A most admirable testimony. Thank you.

CDL
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You should join his class. Ill bet his students think he is admirable also. Note he has added nothng to the converstaion other than slam those who dont behave the way he wants them to.
 
whatever said:
I respect your right to believe what you will, but I don’t have to respect your beliefs. Any inferences you draw from my opinions about your beliefs and your person are entirely your own, but I note that stupidity is only one of many possibilities. I wouldn’t presume to call you stupid based on what little I know about you.

By the way, in my experience it is a rare theist who respects the beliefs or lack of belief of unbelievers and character attacks are all too common on their side.

Whatever.
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AMEN!
 
estesbob said:
You should join his class. Ill bet his students think he is admirable also. Note he has added nothng to the converstaion other than slam those who dont behave the way he wants them to.
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I’m referring to his post #46 not to the little spitting match you two have gotten into. I suspect that if both of you backed off a little you would both admire the other. I think your disagreement is over a misunderstanding of something each of you said.

I do think his courage in converting to Christianity in the face of horrible opposition is quite admirable, don’t you?

CDL
 
GregoryPalamas said:
I’m referring to his post #46 not to the little spitting match you two have gotten into. I suspect that if both of you backed off a little you would both admire the other. I think your disagreement is over a misunderstanding of something each of you said.

I do think his courage in converting to Christianity in the face of horrible opposition is quite admirable, don’t you?

CDL
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smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_12_9.gif My apologies!

smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb095&pp=ZS
 
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