Atheism & Morale (split from INSIGHTS ON ATHEISM)

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squirt:
What if somebody thinks that “this sentence is true”??? 😛
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My signature is my own circular logic. Don’t mess with me, buddy. heh:tiphat:
 
Nil Desperandum:
My signature is my own circular logic. Don’t mess with me, buddy. heh:tiphat:
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Circular, eh? SIgn of a **well-rounded **personality!!!
 
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squirt:
Circular, eh? SIgn of a **well-rounded **personality!!!
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I’d make a square circle, but it would be a little rough around the edges.
 
Thank you for your response Chris. I suppose I am trying to figure out why " to help humanity continue on" would even matter though. Continue on til what? To squeeze into The Big Crunch (I know, one of several theories, none of them too promising to mankind though)?
I can completely accept the idea that some people believe there is no purpose for existence and that it was just a matter of coincidence that we have come to be, essentially the anthropic principle.
But in the context of this thread which is to derive morals from an atheistic viewpoint, I am having trouble understanding where morals arrive without purpose. It would seem that existence is really about experiencing pleasure before death. It would mean existence is purely for the individual; the herd and future individuals would seem irrelevent.
In regard to the prayer comment, I understand what you are saying, but it is one thing to pray to a personally created deity vs. a monotheistic God that created the Universe. This Being would be in the form that They are, not the forms projected onto It. I suppose if a person’s logic and knowledge lead them to believe in the possibility of that unicorn I suppose I cant blame em, but inform them. I dont mean to ridicule the faith that you have placed in the non-existence of God, so I hope I have not come across in that manner.
I appreciate your responses,

~Mike
 
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dolffn:
I dont mean to ridicule the faith that you have placed in the non-existence of God, so I hope I have not come across in that manner.
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Quick question, do you have faith placed in the non-existance of Vishnu? Do you have faith placed in the non-existance of Allah? Zeus? The Invisible Pink Unicorn?
 
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Lance:
Where in the world did you get this idea? Of course we can’t go out and commit any sin we want and then go to confession and be forgiven unless we are truely sorry and do not intend to do it again.
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That idea is typical for protestant fundies. They tell you, you can commit the most horrifying crimes, repent before Jesus a fraction before you die, and -ZAP- you’re in heaven. If you do not accept Jesus you’re doomed. In their view Catholics are doomed too of course, as they serve the whore Babylon from the Revelation.

You get far more proselytising from Protestants than from Catholics, therfore non-christians hear that idea quite frequently.
 
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mkw:
I have more respect for an atheist who strives to live a good and charitable life than I do those “Sunday” Christians who profess to love Jesus while in church, then spend the next 6 days committing every sin in the book. I’m sure we have all met or have known that kind of Christian. 😦
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👍
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mkw:
Just one time, consider the possiblity that God exists, might be surprised to actually find Him. 👍 He has a way of showing up from time to time when you least expect it :love:
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Well I did that and it didn’t work. But, hey I don’t feel LOST, I feel FREE. Suppose, you feel the same but on different grounds. 🙂
 
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dolffn:
I would also like to note that atheists should feel free to pray to God to make Himself known to them on occasion, as an atheist doesnt really have anything lose if they are wrong. If nothing else, think of it as an expiriment.

~Mike
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Mike, rather than clutter up this thread I think this subject deserves it’s own. So I’ve started one here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3565
 
Well I did that and it didn’t work. But, hey I don’t feel LOST, I feel FREE. Suppose, you feel the same but on different grounds. 🙂
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Maybe you do feel free, but maybe you really aren’t. What I think an atheist is trying to accomplish by renouncing belief in God (or pleading absence of belief) is to create a freedom from religious obligations or a specific view of the supernatural. Unfortunately that is nothing more than a big limitation of the mind. ’ I am free to think but not about God.’ Since most theists believe a God of infiniteness of quality, the atheist has placed himself in a circular logic. Eventually the atheist may be described by G.K Chesterton ’ no different from a maniac’ He does not see the irony of his thought, no different from Nietzche in the asylum. Reason is vastly different from Rationalism.One allows the travel from the natural world to the imagination and beyond, the other places a millstone on the mind until one sinks completely in the cesspool of the mindless. He will then speak:’ I do not deserve to think, nor live.’ Thus the suicide of thought is complete.
 
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Dismas:
What I think an atheist is trying to accomplish by renouncing belief in God (or pleading absence of belief) is to create a freedom from religious obligations or a specific view of the supernatural.
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Close, but you missed the target, though what you think may apply to some atheists. Now speaking for myself: I have not tried to gain freedom from religion, I have figured out (for me), that gods do not exist, therefore freedom from religions is implied.
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Dismas:
Unfortunately that is nothing more than a big limitation of the mind. ’ I am free to think but not about God.’
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In what way is my mind limited? Limited to what? I have a worldview different from yours, that doesn’t mean I cannot think something different. Is your mind limited because you not believe in the Nirvana?
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Dismas:
Since most theists believe a God of infiniteness of quality, the atheist has placed himself in a circular logic.
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And what circular logic might that be? Funny, usualy it’s the atheist who accuses the theist for circular logic. Like “The bible is true, because the bible says, it is true.”
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Dismas:
He will then speak:’ I do not deserve to think, nor live.’ Thus the suicide of thought is complete.
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I can’t follow your reasoning here. A rational mind must conclude one day that it does not deserve to think? :confused:
 
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Dismas:
Maybe you do feel free, but maybe you really aren’t. What I think an atheist is trying to accomplish by renouncing belief in God (or pleading absence of belief) is to create a freedom from religious obligations or a specific view of the supernatural.
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I actually find that this is more the case for an agnostic rather than an atheist. The athiest, in general, has at least made a leap of faith in one direction that best fits their knowledge and understanding of the world. The agnostic on the other hand seems to refuse to believe anything of a religious nature on faith, but demands proof. The problem with "proof " though is that it is subjective to whatever theoroms are supporting it. For instance an agnostic has no option but to accept the forces of gravity on faith because they dont completely understand it, nor can they say with absolute certainty that tomorrow gravity won’t change properties. As a result I see agnosticism as a more uncomfortable position to be in than atheism in regards to freedom. An atheist it seems is more willing to accept that there are some things that we accept on faith everyday, so direct proof of God is not a requirement to believe or dis-believe.
Please understand that I am not generalizing for all atheists because I have known a few atheists that do hold their position as essentially a way to escape the implications of the existence of God,

~Mike
 
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AnAtheist:
There is discussion going on in the thread INSIGHTS ON ATHEISM about atheism and morale. I think it is time to split this for readability, I don’t know how much response levels this forum software can handle. It deserves a separate debate too.

To recapture my arguments, how a set of morals can be established without divine interference:
  1. Humans are gregarious animals and not lone wolfs. To survive humans need to cooperate. Unsocial behaviour harms the herd, thus lowering the chances of survival. Morale keeps the individuals in line thus helping the herd to survive. Basic evolution after all.
  2. The simple principle “treat other people, like you want to be treated” is reasonable and egoistic. Since nearly nobody wants to get murdered, raped, kidnapped, etc. it is quite logical that a human society invents laws against those deeds. On the other hand one wants to survive illness, have a good life when aged, etc. thus no wonder, that human societies have invented systems to care for that.
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Mr. Atheist,

What is your opinion of the truly altruistic individual? Do you admire this individual? Do you feel that they are wasting their limited life? Do you think they are good or bad? What is your gut feeling and what is your intellectual opinion? I am interested in your developed thoughts of how an atheist looks at a Mother Theresa type of individual.
 
I would suggest that there is no reason why an athiest could not believe in a spiritual dimension and an ongoing spiritual life after human death.

If life in a material dimension which we really don’t understand is possible, life in other forms (which I will conveniently call spiritual) is possible.

Eternal life is also something an athiest could believe.

Athiesm says there is no god. It does not presume to know everything else. Nor would an athiest be obligated by his belief to deny continued life on a different plane.

Only god is denied.
 
The atheist seems to be concerned with the removal of divine authority from morality. He automically assumes the absence of being. When that fails, namely due to Aquinas’s five arguments(design, conscience, history, motion, and desire), the atheist will argued very fluently against such authority over us, because it imposes restrictions over our daily actions, not knowing that these arguments can be also used to remove the State’s authority over us. Remove the foundation and the building collapses. The atheist is like a child who has never seen his father before and goes around telling people he has no father. In time, he believes the very lie that he conjured. Orson Welles called that ‘doublethink’. The honest atheist tries to simplify the world by renouncing God, yet once he does that the world become far more complex for him. He will not understand why the bird sings or what cause the flowers to bloom. The simplest of pleasures baffles even him, because all to him are either predestined or originates from the will. He can not say thank you to anyone because it was determined that the favour be done. He cannot chase after a thief because the thief have a right to his own brand of morality: to steal from others. He loses his sense for love, joy, happiness and hope. He is left nothing more than a puppet of his own making. This is the Superman of Nietzche. It cannot be reach because modern atheists subconsciously move away from the suicide of thought, thereby holding on to the remnants of sanity they still have. But they continue to praise those who have cross the line and now resides in the paradise called the asylum. This is not an argument, but a chart of progress for the atheist, for it has been done and repeated.
 
What about believers? Aren’t they locked up in their world? Let me tell you a story: There was a tiny island in the middle of a huge deep ocean. It was inhabited by children and only children. The island was surrounded by a tall wall. Everyday the children played to the hearts’ content. One day a man came to the island by boat. He told the children they are not free because the tall wall obstruct their view of the ocean. So they proceeded to demolish the wall. If you go there today, you will see the children huddling together in the middle of the island, afraid to play, afraid to see the ocean, afraid of falling into the sea! What limits the mind from doing whatever it wants, protects the mind from the unnecessary fear once it is free to run wild. The belief of God allows the believers to undrstand the ordinary and expects the extraordinary. Miracles happens daily, it is the one that is most ordinary that is celebrated. You may argue that the hypocrisy of believers nullify the belief of God. However in Christianity, this proves the belief to be true. Why? It is due to the fact that it preaches Original Sin and inclination to commit wrongdoing which predicts the actions of believers and unbelievers alike. It is only the expectation of non-believers of believers becoming perfect. It is double standard and nothing more than a whine of a child when he complains that his siblings did worst than he did.
 
Once the atheist abandons the belief of God he must to reject anything supernatural, or else how is he going to find an explanation for them if God is out of the equation? He must then subscibe to the simple-minded philosophy of determinism, that all things were meant to be without the need for God. That is how Karl Marx came up with communism; that we are determined by economics and nothing else. The old soviet movies portrays the philosophy to its fullest; that people are only truly happy when they work to their death or sacrifice themselves to the revoluntionary cause. It is a form of atheism in practice. Nazism and facism are independent but similar attempts of atheism. Once the belief of God is removed, something must take its place. Race and Nation were options chosen, and they failed miserably.
 
Dismas,

That all sounds very interesting, but it doesn’t apply to athiests. They don’t think and act like you say they do.

The athiest doesn’t have to reject the supernatural because he has no explanation for it. He lacks an explanation for the natural, so why should that inhibit him from a belief in the supernatural?

All the athiest does is reject a belief in god. Everything else is available to him.
 
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Ken:
… He lacks an explanation for the natural …
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Have you opened a science book in the last 50 years? We have a pretty good explaination for all things natural. However, the supernatural is something that science cannot deal with, as science deals with the natural world. The issues is, why assume a supernatural explaination if there is a good natural explaination? All atheists aren’t alike, i’m sure you’ll find a few that believe in all sorts of strange things.
 
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