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Charlemagne_II
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Hooding Trees
*For most people never achieve any level of scientific education which is needed to understand the cosmos and our origins, and most people never develop critical analysis skills, which are needed to properly address the unfounded claims of religions. *
Read some science history. Copernicus was a priest. Newton was a Christian. Gregor Mendel, another Catholic priest, began the science of genetics. George LeMaitre, another Catholic priest, provided the foundations of the Big Bang theory. Einstein took several potshots at atheism.
It seems you might be getting your science education from atheist websites?
*For most people never achieve any level of scientific education which is needed to understand the cosmos and our origins, and most people never develop critical analysis skills, which are needed to properly address the unfounded claims of religions. *
Read some science history. Copernicus was a priest. Newton was a Christian. Gregor Mendel, another Catholic priest, began the science of genetics. George LeMaitre, another Catholic priest, provided the foundations of the Big Bang theory. Einstein took several potshots at atheism.
It seems you might be getting your science education from atheist websites?
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ManOnFire
Guest
Naturally, the ego desires brain pleasure for itself. Selfishness and freedom from restrictions is the best way to achieve this. So, God’s Covenant for behavior is an obstacle to selfishness.
Your interpretation of data concerning scientists could be wrong. It is possible that people rationalize a lack of scientific proof of God as an excuse to stay selfish. Those who are non-parents and never married by choice don’t realize how much sacrifice is involved for spouse and kids. I don’t expect people who are not forced to sacrifice for others to voluntarily accept God’s call to sacrifice for others. And I’m not talking about a 5% increase in taxes either. Humbling oneself for God and family is a far greater sacrifice than most can imagine.
The “more smart people are atheists” rationalization is self-serving because the ego does not need to humble itself in this scenario. It could be a microevolutionary “Well, I haven’t found what I was hoping to find as an excuse to stay selfish, so I’ll keep on searching science for few more years to earn another degree, and another, and another, even though I know there’s no answer to the infinity of time and space. I’ll just keep deluding myself in this silly belief. That way, I can keep doing my own thing instead of God’s.” There’s no need for examination of conscience as long as one is following only the laws of the land. If you can fake a migraine and trick someone else into doing the work, what’s stopping you? How soon until the whole of society becomes liars and descends into barbarism?
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Hooding_Trees
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I am of course talking about the modern day.Hooding Trees
*For most people never achieve any level of scientific education which is needed to understand the cosmos and our origins, and most people never develop critical analysis skills, which are needed to properly address the unfounded claims of religions. *
Read some science history. Copernicus was a priest. Newton was a Christian. Gregor Mendel, another Catholic priest, began the science of genetics. George LeMaitre, another Catholic priest, provided the foundations of the Big Bang theory. Einstein took several potshots at atheism.
It seems you might be getting your science education from atheist websites?
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Hooding_Trees
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LittleSoldier
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It means I’m laughing at your concept of “cooperative societies.” If there were really cooperative societies we wouldn’t all be in such a mess with too many people doing only what they want to do, including becoming involved in war, murder, rape, robbery, assault, pollution,…oh golly gee, the list goes on and on.Hmm is that a game of post the silly faces? Ok my turn…
I’m surprised you didn’t figure that out. Maybe I shouldn’t be. After all, you believe I believe there are facts in science and I believe no such thing.
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Neo_Scotist
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Some Muslims are (sad, but true) braver and more moral than many Christians. I have yet to meet an atheist with a “heroic” sense of self-sacrifice, though.I know some Christians who might say they know Muslims who are “more Christian” than they are - i.e., “that Muslim I know is a very nice person” (this kind of thing might even be said about an atheist! - that would be very unusual, I know). But that is an improper and misleading use of the term “Christian.”
I have met a few (very few) atheists that are nice in normal situations, but when bird doodoo hits the fan they all become anything, but, nice. Take it from someone that has been with atheists in foxholes.
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Hooding_Trees
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Ah ok you have not understood my post. I had given you a certain degree of credit since you claimed to be a scientist, or maybe i have you mixed up with someone else?It means I’m laughing at your concept of “cooperative societies.” If there were really cooperative societies we wouldn’t all be in such a mess with too many people doing only what they want to do, including becoming involved in war, murder, rape, robbery, assault, pollution,…oh golly gee, the list goes on and on.
I’m surprised you didn’t figure that out. Maybe I shouldn’t be. After all, you believe I believe there are facts in science and I believe no such thing.
I suggest you read up on the influence of cooperative societies on evolution. It is not specific to homo sapien sapien.
“After all, you believe I believe there are facts in science and I believe no such thing.”
You don’t really have a scientific qualification do you? Ok fact - animals reproduce with variation, the earth is round, the core of the earth is hotter than the surface. I could go on and on and on and on and on… There are MANY facts in science.
In fact in science a theory is an explanation of the FACTS!!
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StrawberryJam
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Anecdotal evidence is not evidence anyone should take simply because you label yourself a catholic on a catholic forum, and I am sure most catholics would agree.Some Muslims are (sad, but true) braver and more moral than many Christians. I have yet to meet an atheist with a “heroic” sense of self-sacrifice, though.
I have met a few (very few) atheists that are nice in normal situations, but when bird doodoo hits the fan they all become anything, but, nice. Take it from someone that has been with atheists in foxholes.
You can not even know how many people are athiests in your everyday life. We don’t have to wear certain types of clothing or markings for you to know who we are. I hope you do not interview each person you encounter in your life to determine if they are in your tribe or not.
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Betterave
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I did read those words actually! They do not specify the accepted use of the word “Christian,” or of your term “ordinary Christian.” I claim that you have been using these words in ways that may be defensible, but, in the context here in which you have used them, have been unnecessarily and counter-productively polemical. If you read Maritain carefully you will see that he is talking about atheists who are hindered from explicit knowledge of God, but who still seek the substance of God. The basic designation is still “atheist” for such a person, even if she knows God without knowing that she knows.
So you didn’t claim that Inquisitors who were complicit in torturing and burning people are not really Christians?? I thought you did and I dispute that claim. (If you didn’t, sorry!)I have already said as much in an earlier quote. I think you do not read my posts as well as you should.
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LittleSoldier
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The earth is *not *round.Ah ok you have not understood my post. I had given you a certain degree of credit since you claimed to be a scientist, or maybe i have you mixed up with someone else?
I suggest you read up on the influence of cooperative societies on evolution. It is not specific to homo sapien sapien.
“After all, you believe I believe there are facts in science and I believe no such thing.”
You don’t really have a scientific qualification do you? Ok fact - animals reproduce with variation, the earth is round, the core of the earth is hotter than the surface. I could go on and on and on and on and on… There are MANY facts in science.
In fact in science a theory is an explanation of the FACTS!!
Animals reproduce with variation? That is a very simplistic statement that really means nothing at all. What do you mean by variation? Do you mean that animals use different positions while rutting? Do you mean that animals show homosexual behavior? Are you referring to animals producing variation in the gene pool?
Prove the core of the earth is hotter than the surface. You can’t prove it.
A theory is a putative explanation (of a phenomenon) arrived at by consistent research showing statistical significance.
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Neo_Scotist
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Oh come on, my anecdotes are just observations of what most people know already: If you’re a strong agnostic or atheist you’re less willing to put your life in the line, and of course there are exceptions to the rule.You don’t even have to have anecdotes to know the previous sentences are true .
No need for that, when you’re a year or two with the same people in the same building you get to know them well. Oh, and we all loved to debate whether god exists or not.
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Charlemagne_II
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*So you didn’t claim that Inquisitors who were complicit in torturing and burning people are not really Christians?? I thought you did and I dispute that claim. (If you didn’t, sorry!) *
I never said that. This is another instance of your tendency to misread me.
Your interpretation of Maritain is obviously not true, and you have not offered an alternative interpretation of Christ condemning the wolves inside the Church.
I think we have to agree this exchange was futile. We are done here.
I never said that. This is another instance of your tendency to misread me.
Your interpretation of Maritain is obviously not true, and you have not offered an alternative interpretation of Christ condemning the wolves inside the Church.
I think we have to agree this exchange was futile. We are done here.
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Leela
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Reggie,
You are trying hard to control the terms of discussion so that atheism means whatever you want it to mean and doesn’t apply to anybody in particular. I don’t know where you get your knowledge of what atheism really is, but the term seems to be getting in the way of the conversation. To most of the atheists here, atheism is the simple lack of a belief in God or gods. But let’s just drop the term since it has become problematic. If you’d like to discuss what you see as the forced consequences of not believing in God I’d be happy to continue.
Best,
Leela
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Leela
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For you, morality is all about a supreme lawgiver. For me, morality is about concern for other beings. Whether or not a supreme law giver exists, we are still all (save a few sociopaths) concerned about others, so morality is something that nonbelievers are as interested in as believers are.
Best,
Leela
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Hooding_Trees
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Hahah ok lets play silly semantical games, or should we post some more silly faces.
Animals reproduce with variation… If you didn’t understand what i mean then look it up, its not hard, google is your friend…
google.co.uk/#num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=Animals+reproduce+with+variation&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=8247b572451dd37f
Ok here is a FACT since you want to play silly games… the earth is NOT flat, FACT! Statistical significance has nothing to do with it. It is an observable FACT.
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LittleSoldier
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Hey, if you want to play silly games, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. But I’m not playing a game.
Your link takes me to a website with close to 2,000,000 entries. I’m not going to do your work for you. If you have a website you wish for me to see, please provide an appropriate link.
Ah, but statistical significance has everything to do with it because significance levels used always allow for the possibility that the observed results were due to chance. Always.
The earth is NOT flat? Prove it. You can’t. That’s because there is a tiny chance that it really is. It’s not a “semantical” game. It’s not a game at all.
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Heliotropium
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Thank you Leela what I’m saying is since aithiests do not believe in God, or spritual things then there is no need for morality. Animals do not use morality to keep order and we do not subject animals to any moral code. If God is out of the picture then what is it that makes us any different than the rest of the animals on this planet? Why should morality be enforced on me and not on the other animals here? See the problem with athiests is there very postiion denies our human natrue as a whole because its one part animal and the other part spritual (body and soul)!
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Hooding_Trees
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Are you like a first year science student? “significance levels used always allow for the possibility that the observed results were due to chance”
Your correct that statistical significance is to do with observed results. I.E. Interpreting the data produced through EXPERIMENTATION! The earth not being flat was originally theorized thought experimentation, Eratosthenes of Cyrene. However this is now an observable fact, unless you want to get into nihilism which has nothing to do with science…
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Mystic_Banana
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Nice assumptions… but where does your concern for other beings come from? The supreme law-giver is considered such because he is believed to understand things a lot better than we do, and to be be the source of moral understanding beyond a tendency to invent such, often disguised as self-interest. You may argue that we’re at some pinnacle of moral excellence, but how and on what basis?
You know, a couple of years ago, I handed a mobile in at the garage I found it at. The attendants stared at me wide eyed, and a couple explained they didn’t think people did that anymore… the norm as they understood it, would be to sell the phone on! The phone rang, the attendant answered, and apparently it was the owner, who wanted my details to thank me, apparently. The attendant said he’d take my details to pass on… I never heard a thing, so presumably the attendant did no such thing…
I’m not a perfect person, but I encounter things like this every day. I’ve also encountered many intelligent people (or at least highly qualified people) who demonstrate incredible selfishness - intelligence has, apparently little correlation with morality. That’s Wisdom, or perhaps spirituality - or just goodness.
I see little evidence that atheism encourages morality - far more the reverse… and logically, I see no logical basis for an atheist to see any value in anything, let alone morality - maybe someone here can come up with something better than the last guy?
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