Atheism, Mysticism and Dark Night of the Soul

[Abba]

Merry Christmas everyone!

I am just taking a break here from my chores and wish to share what I have been doing in my free time. Hopefully, someone else will find it interesting and make a comment.

Well, I just want to share…

Last night I started reading, for the first time, Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the Cross. I turned fifty years old a couple of days ago - half a century. Amazing, huh? To have waited so long, me, a so-called craddled Catholic. Tisk, tisk.

I first heard about it and the works of Saint Teresa de Avila three or so years ago. I read a lot of previews and quotes, and thought it would be good enough until someday when I could read it. Now, the time has come and the previews have done no justice.

Saint John of the Cross is a master! His work is like none I have ever read before! He writes from a position of KNOWING and at that about the most important of topic - our spiritual journey to God and the ultimate desire and goal of a human being which is union with God. I can’t think of any topic that anyone could possibly write about from this point of knowing and with such clarity. To explain my impression, a little clearer, it is like reading a book in physics or any science from someone that understands it completely from A to Z. Scientist write and discover as they are EXPLORING not from a position of KNOWING the subject completely. Saint John of the Cross is a true DOCTOR!

I have only read so far the first twenty pages and the little book is only 111 pages long. I have read about the spiritual imperfections that keep us from maturing. I think I am suffering from them all.
He describes them with the clarity of a true MASTER.

Why do I mention atheism? Well, because in the writings and comments and videos that I have been reading and viewing, respectively, lately, the atheist do not consider the fact that the christians are not alone in their faith, that perhaps, this God that they believe in is their accomplice who actively encourages, guides and nourishes them in their faith. The atheist seem to leave this fact completely out of the realms of their perceived possibilities.

I am just rambling here…thanks for reading…

Peace,

Abba

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

I’m reading Saint Teresa’s Interior Castle right now. Two books that will help a layman understand what Teresa and John of the Cross are talking about (John especially is not a simple read) in a journey towards the transforming union are Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and the Gospel-On Prayer and The Fulfillment of All Desire

 

[Abba]

I’m reading Saint Teresa’s Interior Castle right now. Two books that will help a layman understand what Teresa and John of the Cross are talking about (John especially is not a simple read) in a journey towards the transforming union are Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and the Gospel-On Prayer and The Fulfillment of All Desire

Hello ronnie bonigli,

I will buy Fire Within: Saint Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross by Father Dubay. I really like Father Dubay, may he rest in peace.

I first want to read the ‘bare text’ as my favorite professor use to say. may he too, rest in peace, he was also priest. I am making my way through the Dark Night of the Soul - so far so good. I am reading the E. Allison Peers’ translation. Shame on me! I know how to read spanish but, the English is easier.

I need to buy the Interior Castle. Which translation are you using? Do you recommend it? I have been reading it online but prefer a hard copy.

The Interior Castle:
ccel.org/ccel/teresa/castle2.html

In the introduction to Dark Night of the Soul, P. Siverio de Santa Teresa writes that it is a continuation of Saint John of the Cross previous work; The Ascent to Mount Carmel. I want to read that one too. Have you?

Peace,

Abba

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

Hi Abba, shame on me, posting on Christmas eve. Anyway, you asked which translation am I using, I too go with E. Allison Peers Interior Castle E. Allison Peers (Translator). Interior Castle is a very good read, and I also recommend Peers’ translation of The Life of Teresa of Jesus. I haven’t gotten around to Dark night of the soul yet, even though it’s been laying around the house for a year, but I am planning on starting it when I’ve finished all of Teresa’s main works, The Way of Perfection is in the on deck circle. As far as translations go, there are really only two English versions that are highly regarded, E. Allison Peers has done all of John of the Cross and Teresa, and the other respected translations are from Kieran Kavanaugh and Otilio Rodriguez in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, and The Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila.

Btw, if you are going to buy Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and the Gospel-On Prayer, I really recommend the other book I mentioned, Ralph Martin’s The Fulfillment of All Desire, which I thought was even better.

 

[fhansen]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Why do I mention atheism? Well, because in the writings and comments and videos that I have been reading and viewing, respectively, lately, the atheist do not consider the fact that the christians are not alone in their faith, that perhaps, this God that they believe in is their accomplice who actively encourages, guides and nourishes them in their faith. The atheist seem to leave this fact completely out of the realms of their perceived possibilities.

Well, you’re right, of course, but I’d guess it’d be pretty hard for someone who denies God to not deny His grace as well.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

the atheist do not consider the fact that the christians are not alone in their faith, that perhaps, this God that they believe in is their accomplice who actively encourages, guides and nourishes them in their faith. The atheist seem to leave this fact completely out of the realms of their perceived possibilities.

Dear Abba, that’s not entirely accurate.

Atheism is the absence of belief that deities exist. Jacques Maritain, a Catholic philosopher who otherwise imho misunderstand atheism, realized there were two broad categories:

negative atheists - Doesn’t claim “God does not exist”
positive atheists - Claims “God does not exist”

Thomas Huxley added a useful term to the discussion, agnostic: “Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle… Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.”

This central dichotomy among atheists, of whether we can say for certain God does not exist, is exemplified by the celestial teapot:

Bertrand Russell “If I were to [claim] that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit… [and] add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes…”

An agnostic atheist like me says it’s possible, but an unlikely and irrational claim. The positive atheist says it doesn’t exist unless evidence is discovered that it does.

Carl Sagan: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
Ayn Rand: “Non-existence is not a fact, it is the absence of a fact.”

Which side of the debate would you be on if we were discussing a celestial teapot?

 

[Abba]

MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!!!

well, you’re right, of course, but i’d guess it’d be pretty hard for someone who denies god to not deny his grace as well.

Hello fhansen,

Yes, but, they are then denying the God that they think would exist if one existed. I have not seen atheists attack or confront really the Christian God. Simply stating that if a God exist he would certainly not be a personal God and this idea is intellectually inconceivable and the ignorant masses has invented this idea because of certain needs of their to explain the universe and feel safe in it - is not to face the probability or TRUTH. Why not jump in into a little mysticism and attack there? Why not study, face and confront what the Christians are saying about this personal God and decide then if the ‘idea’ of a personal God is possible? They seem to discard from jump start with an eloquent sentence.

I would like to see atheist reading the writings of Saint John of the Cross, Saint Teresa of Avila and among others Jean Galot and argue their case from within - sort of speak. Do you see what I am saying? Let them present arguments on why God cannot be a personal God. Not, repeat certain cliche that make a conversation going around in circle like a trap. Many just regurgitate what they have read and heard and are protected or feel protected by the same old arguments and forms of speech and paradigms to present and preserve their views. Why not break away from that and consider - why not a personal God?

Lately, I have noticed in my surfing in the web that there seems to be an idea that may even develop to trend as it is becoming more and more popular. This being, the idea of presenting to atheist paranormal psychology, mediums, spiritism etc…as a way for them to recognize the existence of the spirit world and in so doing they will recognize that there is more than meets the eye and will understand that God exists. I think this approach is awful and I hope it never takes off as a trend or any sort or type. This approach is no more than to prove to people that Satan exists and once they recognize it then they will believe that God also exists. What a nightmare! To take people to Satan with the hopes that once they recognize his existence they will come to know the existence of God.

I don’t think people need to know Satan to come to know God.

I actually see atheism as a state of mind - a stage of spiritual development.

Peace,

Abba

 

[fhansen]

MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!!!

Hello fhansen,

Yes, but, they are then denying the God that they think would exist if one existed. I have not seen atheists attack or confront really the Christian God. Simply stating that if a God exist he would certainly not be a personal God and this idea is intellectually inconceivable and the ignorant masses has invented this idea because of certain needs of their to explain the universe and feel safe in it - is not to face the probability or TRUTH. Why not jump in into a little mysticism and attack there? Why not study, face and confront what the Christians are saying about this personal God and decide then if the ‘idea’ of a personal God is possible? They seem to discard from jump start with an eloquent sentence.

I would like to see atheist reading the writings of Saint John of the Cross, Saint Teresa of Avila and among others Jean Galot and argue their case from within - sort of speak. Do you see what I am saying? Let them present arguments on why God cannot be a personal God. Not, repeat certain cliche that make a conversation going around in circle like a trap. Many just regurgitate what they have read and heard and are protected or feel protected by the same old arguments and forms of speech and paradigms to present and preserve their views. Why not break away from that and consider - why not a personal God?

Lately, I have noticed in my surfing in the web that there seems to be an idea that may even develop to trend as it is becoming more and more popular. This being, the idea of presenting to atheist paranormal psychology, mediums, spiritism etc…as a way for them to recognize the existence of the spirit world and in so doing they will recognize that there is more than meets the eye and will understand that God exists. I think this approach is awful and I hope it never takes off as a trend or any sort or type. This approach is no more than to prove to people that Satan exists and once they recognize it then they will believe that God also exists. What a nightmare! To take people to Satan with the hopes that once they recognize his existence they will come to know the existence of God.

I don’t think people need to know Satan to come to know God.

I actually see atheism as a state of mind - a stage of spiritual development.

Peace,

Abba

Hi, Abba.

What I run into is that experiencing a personal God is, well, a personal, i.e. subjective, experience. No one can give St John of the Cross’ experiences to another-we can only attempt to relate them. So a person must want to find God in order to find Him but then detractors assert that we “find” Him only because we want to.

Most atheists I’ve encountered are either anti-supernaturalists to begin with (God can’t exist) or empiricists in any case (God can’t be proven to exist) and so aren’t even open to seeking Him.

A person who’s interested in paranormal phenomena, etc, is at least open to the possibility of the transcendent, and, as far as evil goes, once a person comes to an awareness that moral evil is real-and begins to sense that it’s in some way disordered or out of sync with the way things “ought to be”, then they’re very often driven to find God. Just my opinion.

 

[Abba]

LifesAbsurd and Fhansen and everyone who has participated on this thread, thank you for your contributions. LifesAbsurd and Fhansen, I was just going to respond to your comments and noticed a sticky. I may be going to la, la, land. Ooops. I had not read it.

If I am still around when the ban is lifted we can perhaps discuss a little more.

Good by,

Abba