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jam070406
Guest
Does the thought of killing an innocent baby in the womb upset you? Well it does me! That’s what it is. It’s a human life. Why are you getting upset at me?
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josie_L
Guest
Yes, but there are many more encyclicals. If you key in papal encyclicals on google you will get a website that would list everything you need on this particular issue ( I believe that the website is actually “papal encyclicals”). I know you’ll find the answers eleve of that I have no doubt.
P.S. What is your name?
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Eleve
Guest
My real name is Levi. That’s another reason behind my nickname; some of my friends call me Lev.
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josie_L
Guest
Hi Levi, nice to know your name (sounds Jewish), now can you please tell me what was your religious background (did you have a religious background) before you lost your faith?
P.S. Do not think I’m asking for “nefarious” reasons but how old are you? Please don’t think me rude I’ve asked this question to quite a few people already. For example I know how old Francis and Jam070604 are.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Josie:
Seriously (then I gotta get out the door … I’m gonna check out Pelham 123) here’s the CDC web site for these stats:
cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5103a1.htm
If you’re right on some of the numbers great, if you’re not you’re gonna have to write your congressman and file a complaint alleging the CDC is skewing its numbers (oh yeah you’re Canadian … I guess have Jam write his congressman
).
As for me, I think this topic stinks (it’s an unhappy topic
).
I support a woman’s right to choose. You guys don’t & there we stand (I can do no other). Sorry, I always wanted to say that (it’s a Martin Luther quote)
Seriously (then I gotta get out the door … I’m gonna check out Pelham 123) here’s the CDC web site for these stats:
cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5103a1.htm
If you’re right on some of the numbers great, if you’re not you’re gonna have to write your congressman and file a complaint alleging the CDC is skewing its numbers (oh yeah you’re Canadian … I guess have Jam write his congressman
).As for me, I think this topic stinks (it’s an unhappy topic
).I support a woman’s right to choose. You guys don’t & there we stand (I can do no other). Sorry, I always wanted to say that (it’s a Martin Luther quote)
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Eleve
Guest
First of all, you’re right about the Jewish name (I assume you know of the Levite priests and Levi Matthew, the Apostle and Evangelist), but I’m not Jewish (I might be a little bit by ancestry, but it’s not part of my religious background). My dad’s mother was Catholic, and I assume he was raised that way (I know, for example, that one of my uncles went to Aquinas College before becoming a Baptist), but he never goes to Church now. Once in a blue moon he mentions God, but that’s about it. My mom, on the other hand, is a pretty committed Evangelical-ish Protestant, and that’s how I was brought up. I became an atheist I think in eighth grade, but I still go to church and I’m starting to get involved with my youth group again.
I’m 17 and heading into my senior year of high school. Don’t worry; I trust you
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josie_L
Guest
But I’m stating they are wrong because if you compare their numbers with what Planned Parenthood quoted you see a huge discrepancy. And shouldn’t Planned Parenthood know better.Josie:
Seriously (then I gotta get out the door … I’m gonna check out Pelham 123) here’s the CDC web site for these stats:
cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5103a1.htm
If you’re right on some of the numbers great, if you’re not you’re gonna have to write your congressman and file a complaint alleging the CDC is skewing its numbers (oh yeah you’re Canadian … I guess have Jam write his congressman
As for me, I think this topic stinks (it’s an unhappy topic
I support a woman’s right to choose. You guys don’t & there we stand (I can do no other). Sorry, I always wanted to say that (it’s a Martin Luther quote)
Edit: Well at least you chose to say this than the usual “Reason is the whore of the Devil”. I can’t stand that quote.
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josie_L
Guest
Levi, you are much younger than I expected but I must say you are a very erudite young man. Don’t let that get to your head though, nobody likes arrogance.First of all, you’re right about the Jewish name (I assume you know of the Levite priests and Levi Matthew, the Apostle and Evangelist), but I’m not Jewish (I might be a little bit by ancestry, but it’s not part of my religious background). My dad’s mother was Catholic, and I assume he was raised that way (I know, for example, that one of my uncles went to Aquinas College before becoming a Baptist), but he never goes to Church now. Once in a blue moon he mentions God, but that’s about it. My mom, on the other hand, is a pretty committed Evangelical-ish Protestant, and that’s how I was brought up. I became an atheist I think in eighth grade, but I still go to church and I’m starting to get involved with my youth group again.
I’m 17 and heading into my senior year of high school. Don’t worry; I trust you
Anyways, I’m glad to here that you’re getting back to your Christian roots, but why have you decided to return? I will pray for you. God bless.
T
truthiness
Guest
So, I understand your belief in your own personal view, as my wife shares the same viewpoint. What I fail to understand is “why” you choose Christianity’s God instead of another one out there, is it because of environment?
The issue most atheist’s would tell you is troubling is not the faith you put in the supernatural because of life experiences, but the grouping of people to worship and the outdated dogma that comes with believers…(i.e. Organized religion itself)
I say outdated because no matter how you look at it, churches change slower than liberal society, but they do change. It is no longer acceptable to have the misogynist lifestyle the bible preaches, nor is it acceptable to own slaves, as these examples of previously acceptable facets of normal life are no longer socially tolerated.
Even most of Christianity’s followers formed their idea of Satan from Dante’s writings, and religious hear-say. So, as I would never presume to know the experiences you have been through in your life to found your faith on, I wonder if you have chosen Christianity to believe in a supernatural deity because it is a familiar convenience, or do you believe in God because of a bible which the church deems to be the word of God? If the latter is true, how does someone come to grips with the constant contradictions, violence, slavery, genocide, etc?
Actually, I would say atheists put themselves out there in a different way. Polls say atheists’ are the number 1 distrusted minority in America. As I live in America, this is quite disconcerting. I personally do not find any issue with someone who has different beliefs than I, but religious people have a problem with my lack of belief, and find it personally insulting. So many atheists, to avoid confrontation, hide their beliefs. The one’s that don’t, do in fact, “put themselves out there” Just in a different way than theists do.
I am still open to the possibility of a god in some form, but I dismiss that assumption until there is proof, whether that be personal experience, or scientific data. I find that to be very open minded, more so than some theists. Some theists who are presented with scientific evidence contradicting their book refuse to admit such proofs in fear of altering their faith. It is the mentality of, “If I don’t look at it, it doesn’t exist.” That seems much more closed minded than someone requiring evidence to substantiate claims of the supernatural.
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Eleve
Guest
Actually, I went to St. Peter’s Basilica and sang at a Mass. Not unambiguously the touch of the Holy Spirit, but definitely an unforgettable experience, and it got me thinking again.
Thank you for your prayers
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josie_L
Guest
Ohhh, St. Peter’s Basilica is beautiful (I went to the Vatican 4 years ago), but I never had the opportunity to sing or witness a mass of which I hope one day I will (I have EWTN though). That must have been amazing. What did you like best?Actually, I went to St. Peter’s Basilica and sang at a Mass. Not unambiguously the touch of the Holy Spirit, but definitely an unforgettable experience, and it got me thinking again.
Thank you for your prayers
J
josie_L
Guest
I wanted you guys to tell me your thoughts on this, not sure how much of it is real though (it’s more the moral of the story that counts):
‘About the terminating of pregnancy, I want your opinion. The father was syphilitic, the mother tuberculous. Of the four children born, the first was blind, the second died, the third was deaf and dumb, the fourth was also tuberculous. What would you have done?’
‘I would have terminated the pregnancy.’
‘Then you would have murdered Beethoven.’
‘About the terminating of pregnancy, I want your opinion. The father was syphilitic, the mother tuberculous. Of the four children born, the first was blind, the second died, the third was deaf and dumb, the fourth was also tuberculous. What would you have done?’
‘I would have terminated the pregnancy.’
‘Then you would have murdered Beethoven.’
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Eleve
Guest
Hmm… probably the overwhelming beauty of the church itself, but there were so many great things that it seems wrong to narrow down just one. I was there with my school choir. The Mass we sang at was one week before Palm Sunday; St. Peter’s is a station church on that day, and we got to witness some sort of procession with incense and the Litany of the Saints with some special relics of St. Peter that had been placed on the Papal Altar for the occasion. Getting to sing at a Mass in a place like that is pretty incredible, too. We had a pretty good performance, and a pretty good choir, and I know we impressed the celebrating Cardinal — one of the priests involved with the Mass, part of the Vatican’s diplomatic service, is from our local diocese, and a son of our former musical director. He got a girl from the choir into the City itself through one of the gates so that she could use the bathroom. She got to meet a few Swiss Guards, but meanwhile the rest of us were introduced to the official Papal Theologian, who was returning from the University of Rome. He gave us a short history lesson on the Basilica, and impressed everyone by guessing who was Irish, Polish, Swedish, and so on. So, the special things unique to our trip were as much a part of it as the Basilica.
Hmm; I guess that’s a bit more than you asked for, but every once in a while I have to revisit those memories, so I guess that’s what you got!
Hmm; I guess that’s a bit more than you asked for, but every once in a while I have to revisit those memories, so I guess that’s what you got!
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Eleve
Guest
The story itself is not true, as Beethoven was the second child in his family and the first to survive infancy. The principle at work here is a problem because it assumes that we should put all other considerations aside on the off-chance that the child might be an extreme outlier. Assuming that a family history like this is a good predictor, the vast majority of children born in this situation would live short and painful lives, and abortion would be the right choice if you considered it worth the cost to prevent that possibility (I know that you don’t, which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it’s the logic that’s supposed to be refuted by this anecdote). (I don’t know of any particular scientific reason to expect that the fifth child would go the way of the first four, but it would certainly be more likely than a genius like Beethoven). So, this argument can’t really be applied to abortion in general; it’s just one particular case where, with perfect hindsight, we know that abortion would have been the wrong choice. And, really, a choice like this is one that we make every day. I’m sure there have been thousands of potential Einsteins that haven’t been born because the right couple (maybe already married) didn’t decide to have sex on a particular day. No reasonable person would generalize this into an argument that people should have as much sex and as many children as possible. I can imagine an argument along the lines of:
—You’re almost too tired to walk after a day of work, and your wife has a headache. Would you have sex that night?
—No, it probably wouldn’t be enjoyable for either of us.
—Then Lincoln would never have been born.
And this argument would be flawed for the same reasons.
Lastly, the argument turns into a very nasty reversal. One abortion back in 1889 would have protected the world from Hitler. You can’t abort every child for fear that he/she will grow up to be a monster; for the same reasons, if an abortion were otherwise reasonable, potential genius wouldn’t be a reason to eschew it.
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josie_L
Guest
No fair, I’ve never met a cardinal or the official papal theologian. And I’ll have to wait another two years before I meet the Pope in Spain. :bighanky:Hmm… probably the overwhelming beauty of the church itself, but there were so many great things that it seems wrong to narrow down just one. I was there with my school choir. The Mass we sang at was one week before Palm Sunday; St. Peter’s is a station church on that day, and we got to witness some sort of procession with incense and the Litany of the Saints with some special relics of St. Peter that had been placed on the Papal Altar for the occasion. Getting to sing at a Mass in a place like that is pretty incredible, too. We had a pretty good performance, and a pretty good choir, and I know we impressed the celebrating Cardinal — one of the priests involved with the Mass, part of the Vatican’s diplomatic service, is from our local diocese, and a son of our former musical director. He got a girl from the choir into the City itself through one of the gates so that she could use the bathroom. She got to meet a few Swiss Guards, but meanwhile the rest of us were introduced to the official Papal Theologian, who was returning from the University of Rome. He gave us a short history lesson on the Basilica, and impressed everyone by guessing who was Irish, Polish, Swedish, and so on. So, the special things unique to our trip were as much a part of it as the Basilica.
Hmm; I guess that’s a bit more than you asked for, but every once in a while I have to revisit those memories, so I guess that’s what you got!
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Eleve
Guest
Oh, the priest wasn’t a Cardinal. He just got to talk to the principal celebrant after the Mass and before he met up with us before dinner. Still a pretty sweet job, though.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
believe it or not I’ve heard of other non-believers who still attend church & are involved in fellowship. I’m not quite sure how that works … but it’s not unprecedented.Levi, you are much younger than I expected but I must say you are a very erudite young man. Don’t let that get to your head though, nobody likes arrogance.
BTW Eleve I knew you were young (but I figured college aged).
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Clergymen never like me … because of course I’m not in the market for their goods
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
nice job
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InNomineDomini
Guest
What is that you wish to suggest? That propositions which cannot be demonstrated as being valid, therefore do not imply falsity?
Atheism is the view that theism has not sufficiently demonstrated that the proposition ‘god exists’ is valid, and therefore, that the proposition is, within a range of degrees of probability, likely invalid.
This sort of opinion on the theistic proposition, does in fact have ‘evidence’, in the sense that (i) the agreed upon laws of logic are being followed and (ii) such laws imply the opinion without the need to rely upon alogical constructs, no ‘authority’ to validate a conclusion without recourse to the accepted logical format of what it means that a conclusion is valid
The view that the theistic proposition is valid, on the other hand, does require the nebulousness of alogic in order to be validated, and there is, in fact, an authority which is not logic which must necessarily show that the proposition is true. This is what you call ‘revelation’, and what you call ‘faith’.
In my personal opinion, arguments which attempt to demonstrate that ‘god exists’ is a valid proposition, do not do so to a high degree of probability, do not do so to a likelihood which is greater than unlikelihood; and they, moreover, are very rarely presented to a mind as being able to do so. Instead, they are meant to give the impression of being reasonable, so that a mind might acquiesce its will to its own emotions, and allow itself to be quite content at existing in the dreamworld of alogical observation.
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