Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

The Catholic Church was very active to reduce those numbers. Caedite eos, novit enim Dominus, qui sunt eis.

How about some examples of how the CC reduced their numbers (especially in light of the fact that the first three centuries after Christ Christians were being persecuted)?

 

[josie_L]

It’s not God that bothers us, it’s his followers.

What if you were surrounded by followers of another god who in their well meaning way were constantly were trying to help fix you and save you by converting you away from the superstitious Christian God and to their obviously one true god? When at length they did not succeed they stated suspecting that something was wrong with you, wouldn’t you get tired of that eventually?

And so you decided that you wanted to join a Catholic forum?

 

[j1akey]

And so you decided that you wanted to join a Catholic forum?

I can’t speak for any other atheists out there but I joined this forum because I’m really trying to understand why people think they way they do on the other side of the religous fence. While I have no belief in god, I can’t say the same for other people in my family and discussing it with them usually turns out to be lesson in futility.

The second reason I joined this forum is because of the level of hate that people here seem to have for athiests. At least with some of the members here, others seem quite reasonable and I’m trying to do my small part to show that we’re not all evil people despite popular belief.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I can’t speak for any other atheists out there but I joined this forum because I’m really trying to understand why people think they way they do on the other side of the religous fence. While I have no belief in god, I can’t say the same for other people in my family and discussing it with them usually turns out to be lesson in futility.

The second reason I joined this forum is because of the level of hate that people here seem to have for athiests. At least with some of the members here, others seem quite reasonable and I’m trying to do my small part to show that we’re not all evil people despite popular belief.

From what I can see, this forum is the least hateful towards athiests and agnostics.

But, that is to be expected I suppose. People in the old testament did the same thing to protect themselves.

Remember, their God hates the same people they do.

 

[swplan76]

I can’t speak for any other atheists out there but I joined this forum because I’m really trying to understand why people think they way they do on the other side of the religous fence. While I have no belief in god, I can’t say the same for other people in my family and discussing it with them usually turns out to be lesson in futility.

The second reason I joined this forum is because of the level of hate that people here seem to have for athiests. At least with some of the members here, others seem quite reasonable and I’m trying to do my small part to show that we’re not all evil people despite popular belief.

I’ve run into a lot of intolerance on this board. I am not a run of the mill Christian. I take my faith very personally and find that I don’t agree with anyone on everything. I don’t feel the need to. On this board (as is the case with life) there are many people who get really offended when anyone presents ideas they disagree with. I think your point is important though… why is there so much intolerance, but people claim to be Christians?

Christianity says, “Turn the other cheek” and “Love your enemy” and “put other’s needs before your own.” “If God is for us, who can be against us?”

You’d think a Catholic forum would be the safest place to have a conversation.

 

[AnAtheist]

How about some examples of how the CC reduced their numbers (especially in light of the fact that the first three centuries after Christ Christians were being persecuted)?

One example is hidden in the post.

 

[josie_L]

I can’t speak for any other atheists out there but I joined this forum because I’m really trying to understand why people think they way they do on the other side of the religous fence. While I have no belief in god, I can’t say the same for other people in my family and discussing it with them usually turns out to be lesson in futility.

The second reason I joined this forum is because of the level of hate that people here seem to have for athiests. At least with some of the members here, others seem quite reasonable and I’m trying to do my small part to show that we’re not all evil people despite popular belief.

What hate are you refering to? I have not seen that, I admit to things getting heated, but to say that we hate, that is too strong a word to be true.

 

[josie_L]

From what I can see, this forum is the least hateful towards athiests and agnostics.

But, that is to be expected I suppose. People in the old testament did the same thing to protect themselves.

Remember, their God hates the same people they do.

Well, I don’t exactly feel the love from all you atheists either (and please don’t confuse anger with hate, I know from time to time things can get heated but there is no malignant intent to it), especially the newly subscribed atheist members of this forum who come to CAF with a huge chip on their shoulder.

God does not hate you or anyone else, He is love.

 

[josie_L]

One example is hidden in the post.

Instead of playing coy can you please translate.

 

[dyluck]

I’ve been teaching a course on world religions this past school year.

One basic thing about Christianity is that, in philosophy, Christianity teaches people to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies, to make sure that love is always evident, to cut away bitterness. We are supposed to wage war, but not as the world wages war. We are supposed to be light - to be the good thing in our community that draws people to call upon God. Early Christians brought liberation with them. Christianity is supposed to be spread by love - “They’ll know we are Christians by our love.”

Islam is a different story. Islam says, when the time is up, lay in ambush for nonbelievers, slay them everywhere you find them unless they pay the tax and convert to Islam. Islam is a religion that spread by oppressing others and putting the fear of Allah into them.

Many modern Christians teach that Christianity is the way, but they behave like Muslims. The vast majority of modern Christians do not engage violently with people over religion, but they like to throw around fear of Hell and damnation. Instead of being light and letting the goodness of God shine in us, we tend to wage war like the world does. God is present here with us and He is sorting things out - its not as if He is absent. Its His job to be the judge. He hasn’t given us that responsibility. Is it right for a person to become a Christian because they are afraid of Hellfire? I tried that and it didn’t work. It wasn’t until years later, when I was really hungry for God, ready to surrender, that He revealed Himself to me.

Thoughts?

Hi swplan76,

Well I wouldn’t say throwing around damnation of hell. But, as you well know, for every action there is a reaction for every decision there is a concequence trivial or great.

Unlike muslims, Christians are not commissioned to bring about the judgment of God on people nor are to judge unbelievers at all. This is God’s domain. We as Christians are to bring the good news (the gospel) to the unbeliever. And we can certianly rebuke each other as fellow christians as we grow and sharpen each other’s iron (biblical metafore for exorting biblical doctrine with each other)

For us, the divine concequense to sin is the Wrath of God. Sin being the direct disobedience to the commandments of God. Insituted by God. You want to know the main reason why a Chrstian would mention the fears of Hell?
Its exactly as this Athiest put it in discourse with a Christian pastor:

"Ray,

You are really convinced that you’ve got all the answers. You’ve really got yourself tricked into believing that you’re 100% right. Well, let me tell you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you’re right, as you say you are, and believe that, then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your ‘loving’ god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.

If you believe one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unreacheable fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness. That’s equivalent to standing on a street corner and watching every person that passes you walk blindly directly into the path of a bus and die, yet you stand idly by and do nothing. You’re just twiddling your thumbs, happy in the knowledge that one day that ‘walk’ signal will shine your way across the road.

Think about it. Imagine the horrors Hell must have in store if the bible is true. You’re just going to allow that to happen and not care about saving anyone but yourself? If you’re right then you’re an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring.

James Franz " - wayofthemaster.com/atheistletter.shtml

So to answer your question. The gospel is not the gospel without Sin, the nature of sin and the condemnation of Sin. If you try to teach a gospel that doesn’t involve what it was Jesus saved us from, then we do not preach the true gospel. And it would be bunk and turn out to yeild no seeds planted on furtile soil.
Now if someone tries to turn to God due to fear of Hell is turning to God for the wrong reason. The thing is, at the end of the day, it is not about hell or heaven for that matter, it is about being with God, knowing God, glorifying God. The worst thing about Hell is being completely separated from God.

I hope that answers your question. Please let me know if you have more

 

[aileron]

Atheists claim that God doesn’t exist.

Some do, but not all. I am an atheist and I do not claim God doesn’t exist. I lack belief because I reject as fallacious human claims that God exists and much more plausible explanations exist for their belief.

They have no evidence from which to base their case.

By what evidence do you disbelieve (or deny the existence as the case may be) of the many thousands of gods worshiped by humans? We’re using the same standards of belief you apply to others’ gods to all gods. You apply a different standard to the one of your culture, probably first taught to you before you could think critically.

People who believe in nothing have nothing - where is there to go from nothing?

What makes you think atheists believe in nothing?

He continued on and I realized that a bitterness was in him to the point that he no longer wants to see God.

Maybe he just doesn’t want to have people try to convert him. If you had a Hindu friend who was pleading with you to switch from Yahweh to Brahman, how long would it take to get old?

The atheists I know are fairly closed minded

You are closed minded to many people’s religious beliefs too, but your atheists friends are at least consistent and fair. You are closed minded about literally thousands of gods and religious beliefs. Yet on no more evidence than what others believe, you proclaim the religion of your culture right and all the rest wrong. The atheists is fair. Is they all have the same evidence, they are all equally implausible.

At best they can say that they have doubt

No, at best atheists can make persuasive arguments that God is implausible and shows every indication of human origin.

 

[dyluck]

Some do, but not all. I am an atheist and I do not claim God doesn’t exist. I lack belief because I reject as fallacious human claims that God exists and much more plausible explanations exist for their belief.

Hi aileron, hope you don’t mind I jump in here.
I thought there was a difference then that agnostic people simply are not sure if there is or isn’t a God or cannot prove either side to themselves. Would you not then be agnostic aileron?

Athiesim is absolute in the core belief that there is no God and you simply cease to exist when you die etc.

By what evidence do you disbelieve (or deny the existence as the case may be) of the many thousands of gods worshiped by humans? We’re using the same standards of belief you apply to others’ gods to all gods. You apply a different standard to the one of your culture, probably first taught to you before you could think critically.

I would really like to answer this. The difference between the one true God and false Gods is Man’s merit before God. Correct me if I am wrong but every other religion and even some sects within “christendom” banner, believe that it is by the merit of men that pleases a God such that they enter heaven. Wherease in true christianity, it is the merit of One Jesus Christ that we are saved and able to be with God.

What makes you think atheists believe in nothing?

From Greek a (a-), “‘not’”) + θεός (theos), “‘god’”) “atheos” is “not God”. Athiesm is the belief in no exsitance or complete denial of God/Gods. When the term “nothing” is used, it is missrepresented as “no God”. A theologist believes there are two possible states of argument. Either there is indeed an infinate being that cannot be compared to another or a lack of an infinite being in which results in absolute nothing. Therefore the word “nothing” is used instead of “no God”. A common thought is that Athiests are believers in themselves and therefore accountable only to themselves; therefore the appeazement of athiesm.

Although, I think simply looking around you is proof of God’s existance and therefore no excuse to be an athiest; however, an athiest I quite understand as they are true to their belief and act according to their belief. Agnostics, however, I do not understand. If there is indeed God, the denial or lack of submitting to him could be detrimental.

Maybe he just doesn’t want to have people try to convert him. If you had a Hindu friend who was pleading with you to switch from Yahweh to Brahman, how long would it take to get old?

Well aileron, if a Christian is trying to “convert” anyone to christianity with anything other then the Gospel, biblically it will yeild nothing. If the gospel is indeed shared to the individual and rejected for better words, we are not to keep driving it down the throat of the person. We believe it is God that opens the ear and heart of the individual. If conversion happens, it is only because God has made it so through hearing the Gospel.

You are closed minded to many people’s religious beliefs too, but your atheists friends are at least consistent and fair. You are closed minded about literally thousands of gods and religious beliefs. Yet on no more evidence than what others believe, you proclaim the religion of your culture right and all the rest wrong. The atheists is fair. Is they all have the same evidence, they are all equally implausible.

If a God is indeed holy and just, and if we sin or commit acts against his law weather we know Him as being God or not, we must answer to him in the end. Therefore, if someone feels that they can make God pleased with them enough for God to be unjust and forgive their transgressions without his justice being satisfied based on their merit doesn’t work. Therefore any religion where working your way to heaven doesn’t coeincide with any God that man claims to be holy and just.

No, at best atheists can make persuasive arguments that God is implausible and shows every indication of human origin.

I am not sure, what is the athiests view of the origin of man? is it evolution or are there other argumens? just curious.

 

[PennitentMan]

Just on the first page of this thread alone, it’s astounding the level of misconceptions people have about Atheists.

Why not just ask questions and politely find out what we think (I’d prefer the term think to believe), rather than assuming we are all angry at god or disillusioned, angry, sarcastic, arrogant, insulting and condescending people.

 

[j1akey]

I am not sure, what is the athiests view of the origin of man? is it evolution or are there other argumens? just curious.

What other arguments would there be? An atheist isn’t going to say that we suddenly appeared on the earth out of nowhere and all of the sudden from nothingness. Evolution is the going scientific theory that is pretty much accepted yes. Also evolution isn’t really an argument at all. Theory’s aren’t arguments, they’re theorys. Theory’s try to explain the world around us based on what we know from observeration, testing and experimentation. The evidence supports evolution so that’s what I go with.

Now I’m sure someone say “what evidence are you talking about, I only see evidence of god” so I’ll get it out of the way and just tell you to google it because I’m sick of having the same conversation over and over again. There’s alot of reading material on the subject already. I’m sure you’ll find hundreds of thousands of websites about it. Then someone will say “prove the unprovable” or “disprove the undisprovable” or some such idiotic thing, and I’ll just say /palmface.

 

[happilycatholic]

I think you have it backwards. You are the one that claims the existence of god therefore the burden of proof is on you.

For example I say to you, “We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power.”

A logical response for you would be, “Prove it.”

Theists are the ones that can claim no authority because they have no proof. Atheists on the other hand have mountains of peer reviewed scientific data that stands as evidence that many of the beliefs espoused by most of the religions of the world are just plane wrong.

The FSM crashed and burned and is old news now. k?

 

[Bear_Claw]

The FSM crashed and burned and is old news now. k?

Sub any term in there then. FSM, Pink Unicorn, China Teapot, God, Krishna, Zeus, Jesus, Tom Cruise, etc…it makes sense no matter who what you use.

(PS: Of course tom Cruise is a joke, based on Taladega Nights:
“Tom Cruise, use your witchcraft on me to get the fire off me!” - Ricky Bobby )

 

[Bear_Claw]

What other arguments would there be? An atheist isn’t going to say that we suddenly appeared on the earth out of nowhere and all of the sudden from nothingness. Evolution is the going scientific theory that is pretty much accepted yes. Also evolution isn’t really an argument at all. Theory’s aren’t arguments, they’re theorys. Theory’s try to explain the world around us based on what we know from observeration, testing and experimentation. The evidence supports evolution so that’s what I go with.

Now I’m sure someone say “what evidence are you talking about, I only see evidence of god” so I’ll get it out of the way and just tell you to google it because I’m sick of having the same conversation over and over again. There’s alot of reading material on the subject already. I’m sure you’ll find hundreds of thousands of websites about it. Then someone will say “prove the unprovable” or “disprove the undisprovable” or some such idiotic thing, and I’ll just say /palmface.

+1

 

[happilycatholic]

Sub any term in there then. FSM, Pink Unicorn, China Teapot, God, Krishna, Zeus, Jesus, Tom Cruise, etc…it makes sense no matter who what you use.

(PS: Of course tom Cruise is a joke, based on Taladega Nights:
“Tom Cruise, use your witchcraft on me to get the fire off me!” - Ricky Bobby )

Yeah, I meant the whole concept. I think the OP had it right. The argument is actually a pretty short one. But if you find your teapot flying, you’d better duck!

Actually I’d rather talk about Ricky Bobby.

 

[Bear_Claw]

I think the OP had it right.

Can’t disagree more.

The argument is actually a pretty short one.

Yeah it actually is. It goes like this: Can’t prove it? Move along.

But if you find your teapot flying, you’d better duck!

Um, I don’t quite get this line…the teapot is just a hypothetical, like all the other deities I listed. Did i miss some humour here, if that’s the case, I 'appologise, I had some late nights

Actually I’d rather talk about Ricky Bobby.

Me too, he’s Awesome!

 

[dyluck]

What other arguments would there be? An atheist isn’t going to say that we suddenly appeared on the earth out of nowhere and all of the sudden from nothingness. Evolution is the going scientific theory that is pretty much accepted yes. Also evolution isn’t really an argument at all. Theory’s aren’t arguments, they’re theorys. Theory’s try to explain the world around us based on what we know from observeration, testing and experimentation. The evidence supports evolution so that’s what I go with.

Now I’m sure someone say “what evidence are you talking about, I only see evidence of god” so I’ll get it out of the way and just tell you to google it because I’m sick of having the same conversation over and over again. There’s alot of reading material on the subject already. I’m sure you’ll find hundreds of thousands of websites about it. Then someone will say “prove the unprovable” or “disprove the undisprovable” or some such idiotic thing, and I’ll just say /palmface.

See and this is my whole thing. I have done a lot of study in anticipation of the validity of evolution. I agree, let us not get into scientific nitty gritty. I do believe that creation has just as much scientific proof as evolution claims to have and therefore this thread will de-rail.
My only question is where did existance or matter or primordial soup, energy, anti-matter of the big bang or whatever come from? If you do not believe humans or creatures suddenly existed, how then can you believe matter just suddenly existed. Unless you believe that matter or universe or anything always existed eternally past. Then would it be far fetched to believe a God always existed, a power greater then matter? Thefore not only making matter exist but making it beautiful.