Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

Yup, I did…and my life is now finally on the right track.

I hope the happiness you found now won’t cost you anything in the end.

 

[Eleve]

Why is it so important to have atheist charities? Atheism isn’t comprehensive like Christianity or other religions, which typically call for charitable deeds. Christians are commanded by their religion to care for the poor, and they form groups together under those auspices. The only “tenet” of atheism is disbelief in God, so an atheist who wants to do charitable work isn’t being motivated by atheism to do so.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

In short, we can construct a moral argument for the existence of God as follows:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.

2. Objective moral values do exist

3. Therefore, God exists

 

[PennitentMan]

No, you didn’t because when I act charitably or I’m about to act charitably I don’t say to myself because God expects me to (but I am compelled by his love/grace to always act charitably), I do it because I truly love the person who I am acting charitably towards. It becomes instinctual. It becomes part of my nature to love my neighbor and I can’t separate that from my love for God or vise versa (think of it as a circle instead of a straight line). My motive is love from beginning to end.

I agree. 

But that is what I believe to be true.

Yup. Emphasis mine.

I did not say I love God so therefore I must love my neighbor, it’s more like: I love God and so therefore I’m compelled to always love my neighbor.

Also, the Red Cross (by the cross we refer to Christianity) was begun by a man named Henry Dunant:

Okay, I stand corrected on that one.

Yes, I’m sure the aids hospices catering to many sick homosexuals (I’m not saying they are the only ones who are sick with this disease, so please no recriminations) under the guidance of the sisters doesn’t count for anything.

Sarcasm? Tsk tsk. You asked, I answered.

I’ve already explained it through my responses.

Not well enough, apparently. Please clarify, because I can’t see how I’m guilty of propaganda.
I feel it’s a false accusation and I won’t stand for that.

 

[josie_L]

Why is it so important to have atheist charities? Atheism isn’t comprehensive like Christianity or other religions, which typically call for charitable deeds. Christians are commanded by their religion to care for the poor, and they form groups together under those auspices. The only “tenet” of atheism is disbelief in God, so an atheist who wants to do charitable work isn’t being motivated by atheism to do so.

Who is this question directed to?

 

[happilycatholic]

No offence taken by the way, but trust me when I say I am well aware of the limitations of rationalizing faith, however, I feel it incumbent to respond on those issues that can provide signs (or at least put into question the atheist’s position) of God’s existence. I think the CCC does a great job of delineating the relationship between faith and reason. Anyways my modus operandi is twofold, to discuss by use of rational arguments and prayer. But I know it is prayer which will lead to conversion more so than any rational argument will.

P.S. I think I also engage in such arguments because I refuse to be seen as illogical.

Well, you are a plethora of information and I for one am totally enjoying your posts. You and guanophore should get together.

Keep up the good fight. I will keep you in my prayers as well. :knight2:

 

[Eleve]

Who is this question directed to?

To you, I suppose. Why would it matter whether there are atheist charities or not?

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.

Prove it.

1. Objective moral values do exist

In what sense do they “exist”?

1. Therefore, God exists

We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

[PennitentMan]

Why is it so important to have atheist charities? Atheism isn’t comprehensive like Christianity or other religions, which typically call for charitable deeds. Christians are commanded by their religion to care for the poor, and they form groups together under those auspices. The only “tenet” of atheism is disbelief in God, so an atheist who wants to do charitable work isn’t being motivated by atheism to do so.

That is a very good point. Sometimes I can get caught up in things a bit closely
You make a valid point, thanks.

 

[josie_L]

Yup. Emphasis mine.

I know it to be truth. Emphasis God’s.

Not well enough, apparently. Please clarify, because I can’t see how I’m guilty of propaganda. I feel it’s a false accusation and I won’t stand for that.

It is propaganda because those organizations are not atheist organizations. They are secular meaning they hold to no particular belief (including atheistic). For example, we in North America are governed by a secular government (separation of church and state) not an atheist government (the only atheist governments were under Communist rule) because if we were we could not practice our religious beliefs.

 

[PennitentMan]

I hope the happiness you found now won’t cost you anything in the end.

Cost me what in the end exactly? My soul? Even if you are correct, and I’m seriously doubting how we can even remotely be sure that if there for some fluke reason end up being a god, that it be the christian god.
What’s the alternative though?
If you are right and there is a god, I’m either going to get punished for standing up for myself and my family, or I’m going to spend eternity in worship, thanksgiving, kneeling and prayer to a dictatorish god.
The latter sounds like an eternal “North Korea” to me. No thanks.

 

[josie_L]

To you, I suppose. Why would it matter whether there are atheist charities or not?

It wouldn’t. It was Penitent who seemed concerned with validating his claims by stating secular organizations were atheist organizations. We were in effect discussing charity.

 

[PennitentMan]

I know it to be truth. Emphasis God’s.

Prove it. (Warning, possible thread derailment)

It is propaganda because those organizations are not atheist organizations. They are secular meaning they hold to no particular belief (including atheistic). For example, we in North America are governed by a secular government (separation of church and state) not an atheist government (the only atheist governments were under Communist rule) because if we were we could not practice our religious beliefs.

Communism does not equal atheism. I would say that countries like Sweden is much more of a purely atheistic society.
Much more than countries like Japan or Korea who deifies their leaders, alive or dead, to the point of claiming that they are gods, or demigods.
A true Secular government will not suppress religion, the people will just be enlightened enough to show stats like Sweden or Denmark.
Several studies have found Sweden to be one of the most secular countries in the world. According to Davie (1999), 80% of Swedes do not believe in God.” That sounds more like atheism to me.

So, how did I “deliberately spread this information with the purpose of harming” you or this thread or this forum? (“ “ denotes definition). You asked and I answered. At no time did I spread propaganda on this thread. I resent that accusation. Please retract.

 

[josie_L]

Prove it. (Warning, possible thread derailment)

That’s what I’ve been doing on this thread and others.

Communism does not equal atheism. I would say that countries like Sweden is much more of a purely atheistic society.
Much more than countries like Japan or Korea who deifies their leaders, alive or dead, to the point of claiming that they are gods, or demigods.
A true Secular government will not suppress religion, the people will just be enlightened enough to show stats like Sweden or Denmark.
Several studies have found Sweden to be one of the most secular countries in the world. According to Davie (1999), 80% of Swedes do not believe in God.” That sounds more like atheism to me.

I never said atheism equates communism (although it’s a pretty relevant component to communism) As for the Swedes I have another set of statistics (it will have to wait since I will be going to the movies now) that states otherwise. Also, secular is secular and atheism is atheism otherwise we would call the United States of America not a secular state but a religious one as believers far outstrip atheists/agnostics.

So, how did I “deliberately spread this information with the purpose of harming” you or this thread or this forum? (“ “ denotes definition). You asked and I answered. At no time did I spread propaganda on this thread. I resent that accusation. Please retract.

I will not retract because it was not meant to convey anything deliberate on your part. I think you are being hoodwinked by atheistic propaganda. God bless.

 

[PennitentMan]

I will not retract because it was not meant to convey anything deliberate on your part. I think you are being hoodwinked by atheistic propaganda. God bless.

The term propaganda means deliberately spreading harmful information. I did not deliberately spread harmful information and I resent the accusation.

Please retract. Until you do, this conversation is over.

 

[SHW]

I did actually find the answers I was looking for here. I learnt that** the church is unwavering in its rules, with no room for the suffering it causes to families.** So, in that sense this forum (and other sources like priests and bishop visits, counseling and spiritual direction sessions) helped me to realize that the church can’t be right on infallible. Long, long story, like I said.

"The Church is unwavering in its rules." Could it possibly be that the Church is unwavering in its rules because these rules are the gospel of Christ which the Church was commanded by Jesus to teach all His disciples (those baptized in the name of the Trinity) to obey and follow? Yes!!!

Truth cannot change or it is not truth. The Catholic Church will not change her teachings even though people are “unhappy” with her strict teachings on faith and morals and she will not change them even though they persecute her leadership and her members for her unwavering unpopular teachings. Shouldn’t this be a :newidea: moment for you?

The Catholic Church teaches God’s Truth on earth. The Church is Jesus’ own. He founded it and He promises to protect it until He returns and the gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church. The world is stuck with Jesus’ Catholic Church until Jesus’ Second Coming when He takes His remaining Church members home to heaven. Get used to the idea! We’re here to stay, our continued existence guaranteed by God.

"No room for the suffering it causes to families." Could this be that when persons break God’s commandments/rules, that they bring suffering upon themselves and their families? If everyone, including one’s spouse, obeyed God’s commandments, would we be suffering very much in this life due to our own choices? No! God’s commandments/rules when obeyed actually give us joy and happiness in our lives and those around us. Disobeying them brings all of us only misery and pain.

"the church can’t be right on infallible" So, the Church cannot be right because she disagrees with you? Who made you infallible since you now believe this “infallibly?”

God promised infallibility for His Catholic Church in teaching faith and morals. If Jesus’ Church teaches error, then Jesus is a liar since He promised to be with His Church always, and if His Church teaches error, then He is not God because God is truth. So we know that Jesus did not lie because He is God; therefore His own Catholic Church cannot teach error. Jesus promised that if you listen to His Church, then you are hearing Him and if you reject His Church, then you are rejecting Him, etc. [Luke 10:16]

Does God expect anything more of us than He expected of His own Son? No. He sent Jesus to redeem us from our sins and to be an example of Christian behavior for us to imitate on earth so that we can one day be happy with Him in heaven for eternity.

Perhaps you should rethink your “self-ish” position of “non-belief” and change from an “atheist” to “a theist” who believes in and obeys the one Triune God. It would be much better for your “future.” You will not be just “six feet deep” if you continue on your present path. Your future abode will be much different than you presently think:

Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

Better have your “fun” now while you still can!

What matters is what God thinks, not what any of us thinks. And He has made His thoughts known, about what is necessary for our salvation and what we must do to inherit eternal life, through His Catholic Church to all who desire to listen and learn.

 

[PennitentMan]

Originally Posted by PennitentMan
I did actually find the answers I was looking for here. I learnt that the church is unwavering in its rules, with no room for the suffering it causes to families. So, in that sense this forum (and other sources like priests and bishop visits, counseling and spiritual direction sessions) helped me to realize that the church can’t be right on infallible. Long, long story, like I said.

As far as I can see and have found, the “rules” are all man-made. Prove that they come from god. You’ll have to prove god first though.

Truth cannot change or it is not truth. The Catholic Church will not change her teachings even though people are “unhappy” with her strict teachings on faith and morals and she will not change them even though they persecute her leadership and her members for her unwavering unpopular teachings.

Only how do you know it’s true?

Shouldn’t this be a moment for you?

No, because I can’t know that it’s true to begin with.

The Catholic Church teaches God’s Truth on earth.

Once again, prove that.

The Church is Jesus’ own. He founded it and He promises to protect it until He returns and the gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church. The world is stuck with Jesus’ Catholic Church until Jesus’ Second Coming when He takes His remaining Church members home to heaven. Get used to the idea! We’re here to stay, our continued existence guaranteed by God.

I’m sure you believe that.

“No room for the suffering it causes to families.” Could this be that when persons break God’s commandments/rules, that they bring suffering upon themselves and their families?

No, we were following the churches rules to the letter, fully, faithfully and prayerfully and that was the result.

If everyone, including one’s spouse, obeyed God’s commandments, would we be suffering very much in this life due to our own choices? No! God’s commandments/rules when obeyed actually give us joy and happiness in our lives and those around us. Disobeying them brings all of us only misery and pain.

“the church can’t be right on infallible” So, the Church cannot be right because she disagrees with you? Who made you infallible since you now believe this “infallibly?”

I never claimed that I was infallible, she did. I merely ask how can, by following these “infallible rules” families can get hurt.

God promised infallibility for His Catholic Church in teaching faith and morals. If Jesus’ Church teaches error, then Jesus is a liar since He promised to be with His Church always, and if His Church teaches error, then He is not God because God is truth.

Right on, on all of the above. Hence I’m an Atheist.

Jesus promised that if you listen to His Church, then you are hearing Him and if you reject His Church, then you are rejecting Him, etc. [Luke 10:16]

Okay.

Perhaps you should rethink your “self-ish” position of “non-belief” and change from an “atheist” to “a theist” who believes in and obeys the one Triune God. It would be much better for your “future.”

Maybe I have thought and this was my conclusion. This is much better for my family.

You will not be just “six feet deep” if you continue on your present path. Your future abode will be much different than you presently think:

Matthew 13:41-43
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

that’s what you believe.

I gotta run, I’ll post more tomorrow.

 

[josie_L]

The term propaganda means deliberately spreading harmful information. I did not deliberately spread harmful information and I resent the accusation.

Please retract. Until you do, this conversation is over.

If you’re not aware it’s propaganda how can it be deliberate? Where did you get that information from?

And I will not retract as my intent was not to insult you. If you wish the conversation to end then it will.

 

[SHW]

Maybe I have thought and this was my conclusion. This is much better for my family.

You better be right. If not, then you will be held responsible for their loss of salvation, too.

As for all the rest: If you do not believe in the Triune God, and if you do not believe in pagan gods, then what is left is that you have actually made yourself your own god. As your own god, you must see that you have limitations, of course, since you cannot “create” out of “nothing” which is an attribute of the True God. However, we all know that every one of us can destroy things using our own free wills.

You believe that your future abode is of your own choosing since you are your own god. Time will tell if you are correct.

So, why not give up on us Catholics since we will not be changing our minds, and instead mosey on over to a non-Catholic forum, preferably an atheist one, so that you can all enlighten each other with your own self-thought brilliance? It won’t do you any good to stay here because we Catholics think you are very unwise in your thinking and beliefs and we will keep telling you this very thing. We are just wasting each others’ time, don’t you think? Personally, I will not continue to post on this particular thread because of this very fact.

Proverbs 18:2 “A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.”

Psalm 14:1 "The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

 

[Eleve]

If everyone, including one’s spouse, obeyed God’s commandments, would we be suffering very much in this life due to our own choices? No! God’s commandments/rules when obeyed actually give us joy and happiness in our lives and those around us. Disobeying them brings all of us only misery and pain.

I know at the very least that LGBT people suffer for being held to the Church’s rules. And even people who follow every rule to the letter can still be hurt by those who follow them as far as they need to maintain power and then break them in order to commit abuses.

This is also why I’m so unwilling to make a leap of Faith on Christianity. From a human rights standpoint, we can’t afford to be wrong about gay rights, or abortion rights, or the unchallengeable male privilege of the priesthood.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

on a lighter note … Michael Jackson died, what a thriller (yes I know the bodies not even cold yet & the jokes are already starting, leave it to a godless heathen )!