Atheism - Paradox

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If we have souls, where along the line during evolution did God decide to give us these? What about the parents of the first generation of soul owners?

And if you are a creationist - why?
 
You are absolutly right. 👍

The concept of Almighty God IS beyond human comprehension.

Yet this very God condescended Himself to come to humanity. I am a witness to the fact. I cannot prove it to you and you are free to disbelieve but I have experienced this God in tangible form to the extent that I am MORE CERTAIN OF HIS EXISTENCE THAN I AM OF YOUR EXISTENCE.
You say it’s beyond comprehension, and then, turn around and describe who he is as if you comprehend him. This is like when Christians say we can’t judge him to be illogical, but they judge him to be logical by believing in him and saying he’s real.
But for the very reasons you have stated, He will not communicate with disbelievers or allow Himself to be put under the microscope just to satisfy the whims of feeble humanity
This is a lie.

Acts 9:
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
He appeared to someone who did not only disbelieve, but persecuted Christians, approving of their murder. He also healed a soldiers ear after one of his disciples cut it off. I’m sure I could think of some more examples, but let’s get to the part where it makes no sense to torture people in hell for not believing in him when he doesn’t even want to prove his existence to non-believers. The idea of believing without evidence is not only impossible, it would be irrational to do so if you could. Why should anyone believe without evidence? Why don’t you believe in the Muslim god without evidence? Or in Scientology? Your doubts about those religions should be unbiasedly applied your religion as well.
. But He can be explored in incredible depth through His Son Jesus Christ. Don’t blieve me? Take up the challenge and see for yourself!
I took up the challenge for most of my life. I was raised in a Christian family. We went to church all the time, read the Bible all the time, prayed all the time. Once are got old enough to honestly question things and start using my reasoning abilities it all fell apart. I realize it was just a pretend friend that I shared with my family. I sincerely wanted to believe. I wanted answers. I wanted to know that he was there and it could all make sense, but it never did. I got absolutely nothing from your god because he isn’t there. My story is just one of millions of ex-Christians.

Are you going to judge me and them and say that we didn’t genuinely want to hear from god and believe all of these great things we were told him? Do you know what it’s like for people to slip out of their social network, away from their friends and family because of something like this? Do you think that’s what we all wanted? Think again.
BY the way, non-Christian Roman diarists recorded events of their time. They recorded Christ.
A few mentions of a man named Christ does not qualify as proof of his super-natural status. If they were non-Christian, then obviously, they had record of the things that would qualify him for god status.
Paul the Apostle, read him, he too experienced Christ. So too did the early Church of whom the current Church are their witnesses. I recommend you read Pope St Sixtus [AD115]
The Apostles had numous disciples. Suggest you read St Clement disciple of St Peter scribe to 1 Ptr and author of 2 Ptr after the Apostles death.
Try the disciple of St John the Evangelist [Apostle of Christ] St Ignatious. Great reading.
God bless you.,
Blessings and peace
What for? I can find you all sorts of writers who experienced other gods. This is meaningless.
 
None of those are contemporaneous sources are they? Also, the Gospels were written, at the earliest, AD 50. 20 years after Christ’s death. How can we know them to be accurate?

Any sources for your claims?
One of your number once said: 'if there was a God, then by now we would had a Bible-2 or a Bible-3, the fact that has not happened questions the authenticity of the original.

Had you or your contemorary considered that Almighty God got it right FIRST TIME so that there was no need for a Bible -2 or a Bible-3?

What contemporary evidence do you want?

I will give you contemporary evidence. Evidence experienced as recent as two seconds ago:

Confess your human weakness, vulnerability and faults to Almighty God, invite Him into your life, thank Him for sending His OWN Son, ask for His pardoning of your human frailty and then and only then will you experience.

But I figure you will not do that will you. Your OWN Pride will get in the way and there is the clue

God bless you

Blessings and peace.
 
You say it’s beyond comprehension, and then, turn around and describe who he is as if you comprehend him. This is like when Christians say we can’t judge him to be illogical, but they judge him to be logical by believing in him and saying he’s real.

This is a lie.

Acts 9:

He appeared to someone who did not only disbelieve, but persecuted Christians, approving of their murder. He also healed a soldiers ear after one of his disciples cut it off. I’m sure I could think of some more examples, but let’s get to the part where it makes no sense to torture people in hell for not believing in him when he doesn’t even want to prove his existence to non-believers. The idea of believing without evidence is not only impossible, it would be irrational to do so if you could. Why should anyone believe without evidence? Why don’t you believe in the Muslim god without evidence? Or in Scientology? Your doubts about those religions should be unbiasedly applied your religion as well.

I took up the challenge for most of my life. I was raised in a Christian family. We went to church all the time, read the Bible all the time, prayed all the time. Once are got old enough to honestly question things and start using my reasoning abilities it all fell apart. I realize it was just a pretend friend that I shared with my family. I sincerely wanted to believe. I wanted answers. I wanted to know that he was there and it could all make sense, but it never did. I got absolutely nothing from your god because he isn’t there. My story is just one of millions of ex-Christians.

Are you going to judge me and them and say that we didn’t genuinely want to hear from god and believe all of these great things we were told him? Do you know what it’s like for people to slip out of their social network, away from their friends and family because of something like this? Do you think that’s what we all wanted? Think again.

A few mentions of a man named Christ does not qualify as proof of his super-natural status. If they were non-Christian, then obviously, they had record of the things that would qualify him for god status.

What for? I can find you all sorts of writers who experienced other gods. This is meaningless.
Do you seriously believe that He appeared to the Apostle Paul on a whim of disbelief. I tell you no, it was not like that. On his journey, Paul [or Saul as he was then] began to question. In fact he was questioning long before. At first it was probably led by thoughts of their absurdity. But the Lord would only have appeared to him had he invited the experience. So we may reasonably conclude that he had at last serious doubts about this group and their Christ whom he was persecuting.

We will never know, but I postulate that Paul [as a canon lawyer] actually invited this Christ to reveal himself. I postulate that he had already started to believe. This is the very vaccuum in which Almighty God operates.

I can give you more contemporary sources of similar events occuring. Please do ask.

Blessings and peace.
 
Saying that God is real because you feel him when you pray is not a valid argument for his existence. It is no more valid of an argument than the one that people used in Salem when they said they felt a persons presence as evil and that qualifies them as a witch (not trying to be offensive, just the first example that came to mind). The mind can play wonderful tricks on you.

P.S. I have prayed before and felt nothing. I was raised saying prayer before dinner every night, I prayed to god multiple times when I was younger and I truly meant it in quite a few cases. Never once have I felt anything that points to his existence.
 
One of your number once said: 'if there was a God, then by now we would had a Bible-2 or a Bible-3, the fact that has not happened questions the authenticity of the original.

Had you or your contemorary considered that Almighty God got it right FIRST TIME so that there was no need for a Bible -2 or a Bible-3?
I never made such a claim, so your statement here is irrelevant to my questions.
What contemporary evidence do you want?
Any historical records of any person who lived during Jesus’ time describing the events of Jesus’ life, with such records being written while Jesus was still alive.

The first of the Gospel’s were written, at the earliest, AD 50, 20 years after the death of Christ. More realistic estimates date them to be written AD 70 and later. These are not contemporaneous sources.

For example, Julius Caesar left behind many written records of his own; records that he wrote himself. Cicero also made various historical records of Caesar’s life. Cicero was a contemporary who lived during the time Caesar lived and wrote these records during the same time that they were happening.
I will give you contemporary evidence. Evidence experienced as recent as two seconds ago:
Confess your human weakness, vulnerability and faults to Almighty God, invite Him into your life, thank Him for sending His OWN Son, ask for His pardoning of your human frailty and then and only then will you experience.
But I figure you will not do that will you. Your OWN Pride will get in the way and there is the clue
God bless you
Blessings and peace.
I came on to this board with nothing but respect and you already make ad hominem attacks accusing me of being prideful. I have no pride, I am a mere speck of dust in comparison to the cosmos. Do not let your own emotional attachment to your faith blind you into making insulting attacks on my person just because I am asking you honest questions.
 
You say it’s beyond comprehension, and then, turn around and describe who he is as if you comprehend him. This is like when Christians say we can’t judge him to be illogical, but they judge him to be logical by believing in him and saying he’s real.

This is a lie.

Acts 9:

He appeared to someone who did not only disbelieve, but persecuted Christians, approving of their murder. He also healed a soldiers ear after one of his disciples cut it off. I’m sure I could think of some more examples, but let’s get to the part where it makes no sense to torture people in hell for not believing in him when he doesn’t even want to prove his existence to non-believers. The idea of believing without evidence is not only impossible, it would be irrational to do so if you could. Why should anyone believe without evidence? Why don’t you believe in the Muslim god without evidence? Or in Scientology? Your doubts about those religions should be unbiasedly applied your religion as well.

I took up the challenge for most of my life. I was raised in a Christian family. We went to church all the time, read the Bible all the time, prayed all the time. Once are got old enough to honestly question things and start using my reasoning abilities it all fell apart. I realize it was just a pretend friend that I shared with my family. I sincerely wanted to believe. I wanted answers. I wanted to know that he was there and it could all make sense, but it never did. I got absolutely nothing from your god because he isn’t there. My story is just one of millions of ex-Christians.

Are you going to judge me and them and say that we didn’t genuinely want to hear from god and believe all of these great things we were told him? Do you know what it’s like for people to slip out of their social network, away from their friends and family because of something like this? Do you think that’s what we all wanted? Think again.

A few mentions of a man named Christ does not qualify as proof of his super-natural status. If they were non-Christian, then obviously, they had record of the things that would qualify him for god status.

What for? I can find you all sorts of writers who experienced other gods. This is meaningless.
Scripture says ‘those that have shall more be given but those that have not, even what they ahve shall be taken away!’

Guess you lost it eh? 🙂

Your choice, you CHOSE to lose it. But it did not have to be that way, nor stuck fast. You can win it all back again and more. It is YOUR choice. I have given you the formula but I guess you will not do that will you. You are still looking for ways of provoking Almighty God to allow you to put Him under the microscope. Well, I have news for you, it is not new, it is ancient news: you will not succeed. All you will do is continue to lose what little you had.

Were it not so, take me up on the challenge and risk winning it all back again!

Blessings and peace.
 
Scripture says ‘those that have shall more be given but those that have not, even what they ahve shall be taken away!’

Guess you lost it eh? 🙂

Your choice, you CHOSE to lose it. But it did not have to be that way, nor stuck fast. You can win it all back again and more. It is YOUR choice. I have given you the formula but I guess you will not do that will you. You are still looking for ways of provoking Almighty God to allow you to put Him under the microscope. Well, I have news for you, it is not new, it is ancient news: you will not succeed. All you will do is continue to lose what little you had.

Were it not so, take me up on the challenge and risk winning it all back again!

Blessings and peace.
You haven’t really made any points or arguments, you’re just telling people to pray and saying that it must be correct because you feel it’s right. Why don’t you consider the arguments and try and refute them rather than just discounting them?

After all it’s supposed to be healthy to question your faith, right?
 
I never made such a claim, so your statement here is irrelevant to my questions.

Any historical records of any person who lived during Jesus’ time describing the events of Jesus’ life, with such records being written while Jesus was still alive.

The first of the Gospel’s were written, at the earliest, AD 50, 20 years after the death of Christ. More realistic estimates date them to be written AD 70 and later. These are not contemporaneous sources.

For example, Julius Caesar left behind many written records of his own; records that he wrote himself. Cicero also made various historical records of Caesar’s life. Cicero was a contemporary who lived during the time Caesar lived and wrote these records during the same time that they were happening.

I came on to this board with nothing but respect and you already make ad hominem attacks accusing me of being prideful. I have no pride, I am a mere speck of dust in comparison to the cosmos. Do not let your own emotional attachment to your faith blind you into making insulting attacks on my person just because I am asking you honest questions.
Show me my offence? Where have I offended you? I do not aim to offend. I merely respond in open dialogue to your questioning. You ask for contempory sources and when I quote it, you tell me it is irrelevant. If I have offended, point out my offence?

There was in His life on earth no need of written record, there were plenty of eye-witness testimonies. It was only after these were reaching the end of their days that their writings were considered necessary., A pre-cursor to what was included in the Bible was the requirement that witnesses had to be first hand. No-where in the New Testament is there second hand or hearsay evidence. It is all FIRST hand.

As for pride, I am the most pride-ful, far worse than you brother [or sister]. Before Him I am as you rightly point out, but an infinitisimal speck of the cosmos and all humanity but an infinitisimal speck. This entire galaxy but an infinitisimal speck. The known universe but an infinitisimal speck of what exists, yet for mere humanity, the Son of God took responsibilty for His creation’s decision to rebel and took responsibilty to the enth degree.

To His Father He said ‘I created it, I take responsiblity for their decisions and am willing to pay the price and pay it in full!’

What God is this that not only condescends to recognise an infinitisimal speck of an infinitismal speck but considers it worth the ignomy of suffering and dying for?

You tell me? I don’t know. What I Do know is that before Awesome Almighty God, I am too full of human pride, I stand as nothing before Him. I have nothing to offer Him except my love. I offer Him ALL my love. I love Him very deeply. I am thankful for ALL He has given me.

Blessings and peace
 
What God is this that not only condescends to recognise an infinitisimal speck of an infinitismal speck but considers it worth the ignomy of suffering and dying for?
I know I will probably get mobbed for this but…

Jesus knew he would return to heaven when he died. In the eternity of things his life (and the 48 -72 hours of suffering) on Earth would be meaningless to him. So how is that as big of a sacrifice as it’s treated? It’s not like he died and ceased to exist, he just returned to heaven.

I’ll humor you for a second - Let’s say this did occur, and Jesus died for our sins. By doing so he saved humanity from an eternity of hell. So he spent a meaningless amount of suffering to save an infinite amount of suffering? I don’t see how those two equate in the first place, but its not a big sacrifice compared to it’s result.
 
I never made such a claim, so your statement here is irrelevant to my questions.

Any historical records of any person who lived during Jesus’ time describing the events of Jesus’ life, with such records being written while Jesus was still alive.

The first of the Gospel’s were written, at the earliest, AD 50, 20 years after the death of Christ. More realistic estimates date them to be written AD 70 and later. These are not contemporaneous sources.

For example, Julius Caesar left behind many written records of his own; records that he wrote himself. Cicero also made various historical records of Caesar’s life. Cicero was a contemporary who lived during the time Caesar lived and wrote these records during the same time that they were happening.

I came on to this board with nothing but respect and you already make ad hominem attacks accusing me of being prideful. I have no pride, I am a mere speck of dust in comparison to the cosmos. Do not let your own emotional attachment to your faith blind you into making insulting attacks on my person just because I am asking you honest questions.
The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (the Baha’i Faith is a new world religion founded by Baha’u’llah), Shoghi Effendi, predicted in the early 1900s many of the consequences resulting from irreligion. He writes:

**Not only must irreligion and its monstrous offspring, the triple curse that oppresses the soul of mankind in this day, be held responsible for the ills which are so tragically besetting it, but other evils and vices, which are, for the most part, the direct consequences of the “weakening of the pillars of religion,” must also be regarded as contributory factors to the manifold guilt of which individuals and nations stand convicted. The signs of moral downfall, consequent to the dethronement of religion and the enthronement of these usurping idols, are too numerous and too patent for even a superficial observer of the state of present-day society to fail to notice. The spread of lawlessness, of drunkenness, of gambling, and of crime; the inordinate love of pleasure, of riches, and other earthly vanities; the laxity in morals, revealing itself in the irresponsible attitude towards marriage, in the weakening of parental control, in the rising tide of divorce, in the deterioration in the standard of literature and of the press, and in the advocacy of theories that are the very negation of purity, of morality and chastity - -these evidences of moral decadence, invading both the East and the West, permeating every stratum of society, and instilling their poison in its members of both sexes, young and old alike, blacken still further the scroll upon which are inscribed the manifold transgressions of an unrepentant humanity.

Small wonder that Baha’u’llah, the Divine Physician, should have declared: “In this day the tastes of men have changed, and their power of perception hath altered. The contrary winds of the world, and its colors, have provoked a cold, and deprived men’s nostrils of the sweet savors of Revelation.”

Brimful and bitter indeed is the cup of humanity that has failed to respond to the summons of God as voiced by His Supreme Messenger, that has dimmed the lamp of its faith in its Creator, that has transferred, in so great a measure, the allegiance owed Him to the gods of its own invention, and polluted itself with the evils and vices which such a transference must necessarily engender.

Dear friends! It is in this light that we, the followers of Baha’u’llah, should regard this visitation of God which, in the concluding years of the first century of the Baha’i era, afflicts the generality, and has thrown into such a bewildering confusion the affairs, of mankind. It is because of this dual guilt, the things it has done and the things it has left undone, its misdeeds as well as its dismal and signal failure to accomplish its clear and unmistakable duty towards God, His Messenger, and His Faith, that this grievous ordeal, whatever its immediate political and economic causes, has laid its adamantine grip upon it.

God, however, as has been pointed out in the very beginning of these pages, does not only punish the wrongdoings of His children. He chastises because He is just, and He chastens because He loves. Having chastened them, He cannot, in His great mercy, leave them to their fate. Indeed, by the very act of chastening them He prepares them for the mission for which He has created them. “My calamity is My providence,” He, by the mouth of Baha’u’llah, has assured them, “outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy.”

The flames which His Divine justice have kindled cleanse an unregenerate humanity, and fuse its discordant, its warring elements as no other agency can cleanse or fuse them. It is not only a retributory and destructive fire, but a disciplinary and creative process, whose aim is the salvation, through unification, of the entire planet. Mysteriously, slowly, and resistlessly God accomplishes His design, though the sight that meets our eyes in this day be the spectacle of a world hopelessly entangled in its own meshes, utterly careless of the Voice which, for a century, has been calling it to God, and miserably subservient to the siren voices which are attempting to lure it into the vast abyss.**

(Source: The Promised Day is Come by Shoghi Effendi, pp. 114-16)
 
You haven’t really made any points or arguments, you’re just telling people to pray and saying that it must be correct because you feel it’s right. Why don’t you consider the arguments and try and refute them rather than just discounting them?

After all it’s supposed to be healthy to question your faith, right?
You are right. I am not making any points or arguements.

But you are also wrong, I am not telling people to pray or that ‘it must be right because I feel it is right!’ That is a product of your own imaginings…😛

I do not discount anyone’s feelings or arguements. I can only bear testimony to what I have personally experienced. I have met the Holy Spirit of Awesome Almighty God. Now if you chose to disbelieve me, that is upto you. It does not detract one iota from what I experienced or reality. It only detracts from what you believe or chose not to.

God bless you.

By the way, you argue but you do not consider the formula for discovering for yourself. It seems to me you are looking for something but chosing to ignore the obvious.

If you are determined to find, try prayer. I have no magic formula. That is the only formula. Sorry but there just isn’t any other way. The only way is to enter personal dialogue with Him. It is your choice if you chose to or chose not to. There is no other easy answer. The choice is yours. But I guess you will not chose to enter dialogue because that is too easy. You want a formula or a mathematical equation. Sorry but there isn’t one.

The only formula is that prescribed in the Bible.

Blessings and peace
 
You are right. I am not making any points or arguements.

But you are also wrong, I am not telling people to pray or that ‘it must be right because I feel it is right!’ That is a product of your own imaginings…😛

I do not discount anyone’s feelings or arguements. I can only bear testimony to what I have personally experienced. I have met the Holy Spirit of Awesome Almighty God. Now if you chose to disbelieve me, that is upto you. It does not detract one iota from what I experienced or reality. It only detracts from what you believe or chose not to.

God bless you.

By the way, you argue but you do not consider the formula for discovering for yourself. It seems to me you are looking for something but chosing to ignore the obvious.

If you are determined to find, try prayer. I have no magic formula. That is the only formula. Sorry but there just isn’t any other way. The only way is to enter personal dialogue with Him. It is your choice if you chose to or chose not to. There is no other easy answer. The choice is yours. But I guess you will not chose to enter dialogue because that is too easy. You want a formula or a mathematical equation. Sorry but there isn’t one.

The only formula is that prescribed in the Bible.

Blessings and peace
I agree , many things have changed dramatically in even just a few decades. One major part of this “disconnect” is the lack of a sense of shame as I see it. The internet is a really good reflection of how downhill peoples morals have gone. But it all happens so gradually that you don’t really notice the change. All segments of society have become affected.

Not just morals, everything. To use your example: when someone can decapitate a random person on a bus, with others running for fear of their own lives instead of helping their desperate brother, this really speaks volumes about society as a whole. That shows a huge “disconnect” there. People just don’t see each other as part of a larger human family, as children of God. I’m sure every day, or most days, we all encounter some random person in public who displays exaggerated aggressiveness at trivial things. And I know what you mean about walking around – people don’t really make eye contact, usually. Even if you try to be friendly and smile, they still won’t look at you, quite indifferent.

But what we are seeing, and addressing here, are merely the “symptoms.” We are not addressing the disease. As much as you try to alleviate the symptoms, the disease still remains there. What is the disease that has caused all this “disconnect”? In my opinion it is, again, irreligion. Religion has proven itself in the past to be a strong source of uniting people and creating a sense of closeness with fellow human beings. In ancient Rome the Christian apologists even advanced their Faith partly by using proofs where they showed how Christianity was able to change peoples’ moral characters. Actually, at the time the morals of society were really bad like now, so the Christians were able to shine through.

Of course by religion is not meant blind imitation or merely belief in a set of dogmas; actually, I addressed this issue in my previous post. I’m wondering, eehee, what you think the source of the problem is, that is, the source of these “symptoms”? What is the “disease”? I think it is irreligion but I am interested to hear what you think it is.
 
You are right. I am not making any points or arguements.

But you are also wrong, I am not telling people to pray or that ‘it must be right because I feel it is right!’ That is a product of your own imaginings…😛

I do not discount anyone’s feelings or arguements. I can only bear testimony to what I have personally experienced. I have met the Holy Spirit of Awesome Almighty God. Now if you chose to disbelieve me, that is upto you. It does not detract one iota from what I experienced or reality. It only detracts from what you believe or chose not to.

God bless you.

By the way, you argue but you do not consider the formula for discovering for yourself. It seems to me you are looking for something but chosing to ignore the obvious.

If you are determined to find, try prayer. I have no magic formula. That is the only formula. Sorry but there just isn’t any other way. The only way is to enter personal dialogue with Him. It is your choice if you chose to or chose not to. There is no other easy answer. The choice is yours. But I guess you will not chose to enter dialogue because that is too easy. You want a formula or a mathematical equation. Sorry but there isn’t one.

The only formula is that prescribed in the Bible.

Blessings and peace
Yes you have been suggesting to people to pray for proof of God. We’ve tried it. How is that proof anyways?

As I and multiple others have said earlier, we were raised on prayer. And what is the obvious fact I seem to be ignoring? That God exists? How is that obvious? Because you believe it?
 
I am happy to share my thoughts on it. I got the impression that an aweful lot was self’delusion, self-belief in the paranormal and expectation of certan phenomena occuring.

At no point was he able to explain experience where it was not expected, where nothing was expected to occur, where there was no openess to the paranomal.

This is the very anti-climaxical vaccuum in which Almighty God communicates.

Least expecting an event to occur, is when Almighty God communicates.

The subtle point he [and you] miss is humility. To stand before the awesome Almighty God in a state of our simplicity offering it up to Him, then and only then does the phenomenal occur.

I welcome him, you and any army of clever triksters to challenge me on the experiences I had.

I cannot prove to you that He exists. I can only bear witness to my experiences of personal encounters with the Holy Spirit of Almighty God. Test me how you will.

Blessings and peace.
right… hang on, they had a guy in the video who claimed he did not at first believe in God and seemed skeptical. He then was made to “feel Gods presence” in the same way you did. It felt real to him, and everyone else in the video. As real as it does for you. Yet you think you had a different experience to this guy? You’re being dishonest with yourself and just choosing to believe what you want to believe rather than accepting reality.
 
Saying that God is real because you feel him when you pray is not a valid argument for his existence. It is no more valid of an argument than the one that people used in Salem when they said they felt a persons presence as evil and that qualifies them as a witch (not trying to be offensive, just the first example that came to mind). The mind can play wonderful tricks on you.

P.S. I have prayed before and felt nothing. I was raised saying prayer before dinner every night, I prayed to god multiple times when I was younger and I truly meant it in quite a few cases. Never once have I felt anything that points to his existence.
This. How do you explain people of thousands of different faiths “feeling” the presence of the different Gods they pray to, and they feel these emotions just as strongly as you. Either one of them is right, or they are all wrong. Which do you HONESTLY think is more likely?
 
I know I will probably get mobbed for this but…

Jesus knew he would return to heaven when he died. In the eternity of things his life (and the 48 -72 hours of suffering) on Earth would be meaningless to him. So how is that as big of a sacrifice as it’s treated? It’s not like he died and ceased to exist, he just returned to heaven.

I’ll humor you for a second - Let’s say this did occur, and Jesus died for our sins. By doing so he saved humanity from an eternity of hell. So he spent a meaningless amount of suffering to save an infinite amount of suffering? I don’t see how those two equate in the first place, but its not a big sacrifice compared to it’s result.
I wonder whether Prince Charles of England would willingly offer himself to suffer in place of terrorists who come to UK with intention of destroying. I very much doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much a Royalist.

A mere 48-72 hours of suffering. You clearly do not know what He suffered!!!

Could you have endured it?

Could you have voluntarily endured not one hour but a mere 5-minutes? Not 1% but 0.1% of it? I could not!!!

Have you any idea what a Roman flogging was all about? It was intended to take the victim almost to the point of death. It consisted of leather thongs with lead balls on the end. The first few strokes would have bruised, repeated blows on bruises caused the bruises to break, repeated blows rip open the skin, and repeated blows systematically strip the entire torso of skin until it is hanging off in shreds. Blows upon injured skin, no longer the skin being flogged but the very muscle under as the skin is now stripped from the torso.

As if that was not enough, the ignomy of the arrest, being spat at, mocked and assaulted enroute to trial.

The suffering of crucifixion, arguably the most intense pain of all forms of execution. The victim suffers terrible unimaginable cramps, suffers the pain of being slowly asphyixiated. Like being slowly throttled only over a period of several hours.

You think a mere 48-72 hours of this suffering is ‘ok as it don’t last very long!1’

The point is that the Author of all that exists, did not have to undergo it at all!

The fact He did!

I ask the question: if You were in His shoes, would you have done it!!!

Blessings and peace
 
I wonder whether Prince Charles of England would willingly offer himself to suffer in place of terrorists who come to UK with intention of destroying. I very much doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much a Royalist.

A mere 48-72 hours of suffering. You clearly do not know what He suffered!!!

Could you have endured it?

Could you have voluntarily endured not one hour but a mere 5-minutes? Not 1% but 0.1% of it? I could not!!!

Have you any idea what a Roman flogging was all about? It was intended to take the victim almost to the point of death. It consisted of leather thongs with lead balls on the end. The first few strokes would have bruised, repeated blows on bruises caused the bruises to break, repeated blows rip open the skin, and repeated blows systematically strip the entire torso of skin until it is hanging off in shreds. Blows upon injured skin, no longer the skin being flogged but the very muscle under as the skin is now stripped from the torso.

As if that was not enough, the ignomy of the arrest, being spat at, mocked and assaulted enroute to trial.

The suffering of crucifixion, arguably the most intense pain of all forms of execution. The victim suffers terrible unimaginable cramps, suffers the pain of being slowly asphyixiated. Like being slowly throttled only over a period of several hours.

You think a mere 48-72 hours of this suffering is ‘ok as it don’t last very long!1’

The point is that the Author of all that exists, did not have to undergo it at all!

The fact He did!

I ask the question: if You were in His shoes, would you have done it!!!

Blessings and peace
First of all, Prince Charles didn’t arrive here from heaven with the purpose of dying and returning to it. Prince Charles likely fears death like most people. The difference between a human sacrifice like that and Jesus is that the human knows they are losing something when they die, Jesus just gets to return to the big ol’ blue sky.

What if Prince Charles made the sacrifice then went to hell because he believed something that was wrong? What if there is no god and he misses the only chance he has to live?

It’s a lot more of a dilemma for someone without the comfort of heaven than for someone who knows the suffering will end and he will return to heaven. Even if you believe that you will go to heaven, you’d face just as much doubt about making a sacrifice like that because it’s your instinct.

If I was sent from heaven and knew I would return would I make the sacrifice? Uh, yeah? It’s not even a question. Yes, it would hurt an unimaginable amount. There’s no loss for me and I can save an infinite amount of suffering for mankind. You do realize that 48-72 hours of suffering, as I said, is quite literally meaningless in eternity? As in in 1 billion years, who the hell will care? Not to mention the quadrillion years after that. And the quadrillion on top of that. So what’s he sacrificing? You would have to be the epitome of evil to NOT do it.

Let me lay out something else for you:

God = Omnipotent/Omniscient
aka God knows everything

So God would know that man would fall, and that Jesus would go and die for their sins

So God creates Lucifer anyways

So God indirectly sends his son to suffer for him and throws mankind out of paradise. Great guy.
 
I agree , many things have changed dramatically in even just a few decades. One major part of this “disconnect” is the lack of a sense of shame as I see it. The internet is a really good reflection of how downhill peoples morals have gone. But it all happens so gradually that you don’t really notice the change. All segments of society have become affected.

Not just morals, everything. To use your example: when someone can decapitate a random person on a bus, with others running for fear of their own lives instead of helping their desperate brother, this really speaks volumes about society as a whole. That shows a huge “disconnect” there. People just don’t see each other as part of a larger human family, as children of God. I’m sure every day, or most days, we all encounter some random person in public who displays exaggerated aggressiveness at trivial things. And I know what you mean about walking around – people don’t really make eye contact, usually. Even if you try to be friendly and smile, they still won’t look at you, quite indifferent.

But what we are seeing, and addressing here, are merely the “symptoms.” We are not addressing the disease. As much as you try to alleviate the symptoms, the disease still remains there. What is the disease that has caused all this “disconnect”? In my opinion it is, again, irreligion. Religion has proven itself in the past to be a strong source of uniting people and creating a sense of closeness with fellow human beings. In ancient Rome the Christian apologists even advanced their Faith partly by using proofs where they showed how Christianity was able to change peoples’ moral characters. Actually, at the time the morals of society were really bad like now, so the Christians were able to shine through.

Of course by religion is not meant blind imitation or merely belief in a set of dogmas; actually, I addressed this issue in my previous post. I’m wondering, eehee, what you think the source of the problem is, that is, the source of these “symptoms”? What is the “disease”? I think it is irreligion but I am interested to hear what you think it is.
I think we as a culture have become detached from our own sense of identity and abilty to ‘feel what others feel’.

It is all well and good telling someone who suffers ‘I sympathise with you’ but it is something else to be able to say ‘I empathise!’ That is to say, I fully feel what the victim feels because I too have felt their pain.

Things are just too clinical. Modern warfare to serieal. We see it yet we do not feel the terror of the troops. We see the enemy but we do not feel the sense of iminent death or the fear of death.

The bomber does not feel the helplessness of the victim.

God is love. Anyone who has experienced love and the pain of love has in a sense experienced Almighty God.

Anything in the Name of God but which is not love, is not of God.

Blessings and peace
 
Show me my offence? Where have I offended you? I do not aim to offend. I merely respond in open dialogue to your questioning. You ask for contempory sources and when I quote it, you tell me it is irrelevant. If I have offended, point out my offence?
You accuse me of being prideful for asking questions. I said that your comments on the Bible 2.0 were irrelevant, not your contemporaneous sources, which you posted none of.
There was in His life on earth no need of written record, there were plenty of eye-witness testimonies. It was only after these were reaching the end of their days that their writings were considered necessary., A pre-cursor to what was included in the Bible was the requirement that witnesses had to be first hand. No-where in the New Testament is there second hand or hearsay evidence. It is all FIRST hand.
All first had evidence that was written no less than 20 years after his death. So you admit there are no contemporaneous sources to document the life of Jesus as a historical figure?
 
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