Atheism - Paradox

[cheamon]

Anything in the Name of God but which is not love, is not of God.

Yes, God showed true love with Job

 

[Lilyflower]

First of all, Prince Charles didn’t arrive here from heaven with the purpose of dying and returning to it. Prince Charles likely fears death like most people. The difference between a human sacrifice like that and Jesus is that the human knows they are losing something when they die, Jesus just gets to return to the big ol’ blues sky.

What if Prince Charles made the sacrifice then went to hell because he believed something that was wrong? What there is no god and he misses the only chance he has to live?

It’s a lot more of a dilemma for someone without the comfort of heaven than for someone who knows the suffering will end and he will return to heaven. Even if you believe that you will go to heaven, you’d face just as much doubt about making a sacrifice like that because it’s your instinct.

If I was sent from heaven and knew I would return would I make the sacrifice? Uh, yeah? It’s not even a question. There’s no loss for me and I can save an infinite amount of suffering for mankind. You do realize that 48-72 hours of suffering, as I said, is quite literally meaningless in eternity? As in in 1 billion years, who the hell will care? Not to mention the quadrillion years after that. And the quadrillion on top of that. So what’s he sacrificing?

If someone were to punch you on the nose and knee you in the soft spot then to add insult to injury, spit at you and make you drink their spittle, would you think ill of them?

Would you be angry, even momentarily?

I guess if you are anything like me [human] you would curse and swear.

Imagine not only not swearing but all the time praying for those who hurt you. Not only for the minute of spittle but for the entire time that you suffered the severe flogging and crucifixion. Had Christ but once got angry or resented any part of His suffering, the entire event would have been in vain.

He took the FULL WEIGHT of human weakness, never once getting angry for so to do was to surrender to human weakness above which He ascended so that evil could not say He succomed.

To suffer for a good man some might say it was worth it, but to suffer for us when we were still weak and sinful. To suffer for the crimes of Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc, could you have done the same? More to the point: would you have done so?

I can tell you that I would not have done, but then again, I am not the Son of God, I do not love to infinity.

Blessings and peace

 

[kingtego]

If someone were to punch you on the nose and knee you in the soft spot then to add insult to injury, spit at you and make you drink their spittle, would you think ill of them?

Would you be angry, even momentarily?

I guess if you are anything like me [human] you would curse and swear.

Imagine not only not swearing but all the time praying for those who hurt you. Not only for the minute of spittle but for the entire time that you suffered the severe flogging and crucifixion. Had Christ but once got angry or resented any part of His suffering, the entire event would have been in vain.

He took the FULL WEIGHT of human weakness, never once getting angry for so to do was to surrender to human weakness above which He ascended so that evil could not say He succomed.

To suffer for a good man some might say it was worth it, but to suffer for us when we were still weak and sinful. To suffer for the crimes of Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc, could you have done the same? More to the point: would you have done so?

I can tell you that I would not have done, but then again, I am not the Son of God, I do not love to infinity.

Blessings and peace

Surely such a feat was nothing short of routine for the Son of God.

 

[cheamon]

If someone were to punch you on the nose and knee you in the soft spot then to add insult to injury, spit at you and make you drink their spittle, would you think ill of them?

Would you be angry, even momentarily?

I guess if you are anything like me [human] you would curse and swear.

Imagine not only not swearing but all the time praying for those who hurt you. Not only for the minute of spittle but for the entire time that you suffered the severe flogging and crucifixion. Had Christ but once got angry or resented any part of His suffering, the entire event would have been in vain.

He took the FULL WEIGHT of human weakness, never once getting angry for so to do was to surrender to human weakness above which He ascended so that evil could not say He succomed.

To suffer for a good man some might say it was worth it, but to suffer for us when we were still weak and sinful. To suffer for the crimes of Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc, could you have done the same? More to the point: would you have done so?

I can tell you that I would not have done, but then again, I am not the Son of God, I do not love to infinity.

Blessings and peace

Exactly my point. You wouldn’t do it because you’re afraid of it. You’re anthropomorphizing part of God as if Jesus would feel any sort of emotion, fear or otherwise during this. By doing this you are equating the Son of God to a human, and are in fact illegitimizing you belief.

Sure he’s in human form. But he would still have been the son of God. You say that we cannot comprehend God, yet you try to humanize his pain and suffering, as if there is any.

 

[Lilyflower]

I know I will probably get mobbed for this but…

Jesus knew he would return to heaven when he died. In the eternity of things his life (and the 48 -72 hours of suffering) on Earth would be meaningless to him. So how is that as big of a sacrifice as it’s treated? It’s not like he died and ceased to exist, he just returned to heaven.

I’ll humor you for a second - Let’s say this did occur, and Jesus died for our sins. By doing so he saved humanity from an eternity of hell. So he spent a meaningless amount of suffering to save an infinite amount of suffering? I don’t see how those two equate in the first place, but its not a big sacrifice compared to it’s result.

My emphasis

You assume that you are equal to Almighty God. Not a wise appraisal. Common sense dictates otherwise. Let me explain:

The fact that Awsome Almighty God should suffer at all is enormity beyond comprehension. The fact He suffered such ignomy, humiliation, pain and suffering over any period of time, is vastly in excess of the amount He liberated.

To understand how much He suffered and to understand how far above us He is, is to understand the amount He liberated. That the universe has existed for an incredible age, the fact it is only micro-seconds old compared to the longevity of Almighty God, the fact it is a mere infinitisimal speck of all that exists, yet He chose to suffer to pay the supreme price of infinite offence against an Infinite Almighty God.

A mere second would be an infinitisimally large amount of suffering to so high a Being. To suffer for the period that He did and to the extent that He suffered, was by far greater and outweighed the consequences of time so that your arguement becomes futile. Your own common sense and logic should tell you as much

Blessings and peace.

 

[cheamon]

My emphasis

You assume that you are equal to Almighty God. Not a wise appraisal. Common sense dictates otherwise. Let me explain:

The fact that Awsome Almighty God should suffer at all is enormity beyond comprehension. The fact He suffered such ignomy, humiliation, pain and suffering over any period of time, is vastly in excess of the amount He liberated.

To understand how much He suffered is to understand how far above us He is. That the universe has existed for an incredible age, the fact it is only micro-seconds old compared to the longevity of Almighty God, the fact it is a mere infinitisimal speck of all that exists, yet He chose to suffer to pay the supreme price of infinite offence against an Infinite Almighty God.

A mere second would be an infinitisimally large amount of suffering to so high a Being. To suffer for the period that He did and to the extent that He suffered, was by far greater and outweighed the consequences of time so that your arguement becomes futile. Your own common sense and logic should tell you as much

Blessings and peace.

You are saying that it’s impossible to understand God and yet you say that you understand the suffering he endured. To say that a second is a large amount of suffering for something that is completely beyond your comprehension is completely ironic and illogical. As if it’s even possible an omnipotent being could suffer at all.

 

[Queequeg]

Atheists claim that God doesn’t exist.That they have found no proof of the existence of God. From what they can determine, God just isn’t there.

So, how can they speak authoritatively on the subject.

Why does a theist have more authority to speak on the subject of Gods existance than an atheist? Technically all people are agnostic in that nogstism pertains to knowledge, in this case the knowledge of Gods existance. Since nobody can be 100% certain of God’s existance all people are effectively agnostic. At some point everbody makes a decision of belief regarding God’s existance based on the same avalible knowledge. Based on the fact that both Thiests and Atheists are agnostic and have access to the same degree of knowledge there authority on the matter of God existance is objectively of equal value.

They have no evidence from which to base their case.

1. the burden of proof in on the believer
2. It is impossible to prove a negative

As such the atheist does not require proof to prove Gods absence only the absence of proof. The atheist is such because of the absence of credible evidence of the positive argument.

So I would ask what evidence does the theist have?

I would go further and suggest that the athiest does indeed have the second closest thing to evidence that is redundancy via scientific theories of the big bang, abiogenisis and evolution compounded with the principle of Ocam’s Razor.

The vast majority of people through out history have felt the need to describe something they experience as the supernatural - they have a desire to be connected with it. Many people have experiences of the divine which stand for them as personal proof that God is real.

This statement is pure speculation. I could myself make a similair speculative statement; most people cling to a religion out of a fear of the finality of there own existance and as such non supernatural experiences are interpreted as Gods intervention in order fortify there own delusion.

The Bible says that all we have to do is look at nature and we will see that God is real.

This is what aristole referred to as petitio principii also known as a circle argument

I’d say, at best, an atheist must leave theological and/or religious discussions to people who believe in something and they can move forward in their discussion. People who believe in nothing have nothing - where is there to go from nothing?

I would agree if you are refering to disussion of doctrine. Unfortunately Christains have wormed there policy into secular society were it is not wanted. For example teaching intellegent design in school, the removal of contraceptives in sex education or policy regarding abortion.Therefore they have every right to object.

I would also like to point out that most atheist don’t have belief but instead confidence in idea’s. The difference being belief implies faith. In that belief regardless of evidence to the contrary, for example the creation story verses evolution. Most atheists would agree that given new evidence they are willing to modify there idea’s accordingly

I think a conversation with a **devout **atheist can only be a short one. “I don’t believe,” to which the believer responds, “I do and here’s why…” to which the atheist responds, “I don’t believe.” … “Ok?” “Ok.”

I would say that what you have described is in fact the complete opposite to reality as an educated atheist will be aware of all the counter arguments that do not have conviencing retort to the main theist arguments for God whilst also having a conviencing retort to all of the unconviencing counter arguments to the non existance of God to which the thiest has no reply other than I believe. Ultimately belief is faith in god despite evidence and rational logical deduction of the opposite conclusion.

The atheist you refer to is the one that realised reasoning with people of irrational faith was pointless

I was talking with an atheist recently. He said, “I’ve been looking for many years for God, but I haven’t found Him.” I told him he should pray and ask God to reveal Himself. The atheist responded, “No, I’ve tried that and it doesn’t work.” He continued on and I realized that a bitterness was in him to the point that he no longer wants to see God. If God is there to be seen, this atheist has shut his eyes and has become uninterested.

Under control conditions prayer has been proven to be more harmfull when compared to a placebo treatment.

 

[Queequeg]

The atheists I know are fairly closed minded - they believe that all we have is what we see - they are reductionist in their thinking.

Of course that are reductionist, it is logical to follow Ocam’s razor. Athiests are not close minded. I have seen all the arguments for a thestic God and they are have superior counter arguments, If a credible argument or compelling evidence presented itself I would as most atheists reconsider their ideals.

Alternatively consider the creationist who refuses to accept evolution despite the thousands of seperate accounts of evidence.

Many Christians I know believe that there is more - they believe God is mysterious and every unfolding Himself to us, that we can know Him and that He leads us into the unknown in both our personal lives and into the future. In a sense, many Christians I know are **open **in a way that a devout atheist may never be.

If God transends time, space is onipotent and omnscient it is likely beyond all comphrension. The bible written in time and space transcribed by flawed men is not going to provide any insite into the nature of God.

The paradox of atheism is that atheism claims that they have no proof that God exists, their hands are empty, they see nothing to point us toward God and they claim this with authority, but authority cannot be claimed when a person has no proof.

Christains have no proof of gods existance, so they have no authority

At best they can say that they have doubt, but they are in no position to make conclusions… and if they do make conclusions, then the conversation has no where to go.

Thoughts?

see my first reply regarding agnostism

 

[Lilyflower]

Exactly my point. You wouldn’t do it because you’re afraid of it. You’re anthropomorphizing part of God as if Jesus would feel any sort of emotion, fear or otherwise during this. By doing this you are equating the Son of God to a human, and are in fact illegitimizing you belief.

Sure he’s in human form. But he would still have been the son of God. You say that we cannot comprehend God, yet you try to humanize his pain and suffering, as if there is any.

He was fully human so that His nerve endings worked and suffered EXACTLY the same way that yours and mine would do. He was after all born of human flesh [the Son of Mary] though not of human urge.

Son of God though He was [and is] but fully human He was also, so that He felt exactly the SAME as would you or I.

In the words of St Paul: ‘though he was in the form of God, he counted equality with God a thing not to be grasped, but emptied himself and assumed the condition of a slave and became as all men are, even to accepting death, death on a cross, but God raised Him high and gave him the name which is above all names, that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord to the glory of God the Father!’

Blessings and peace

 

[Lilyflower]

Why does a theist have more authority to speak on the subject of Gods existance than an atheist? Technically all people are agnostic in that nogstism pertains to knowledge, in this case the knowledge of Gods existance. Since nobody can be 100% certain of God’s existance all people are effectively agnostic. o is the one that realised reasoning with people of irrational faith was pointless
.

My emphasis

I assume you are speaking for yourself. You do not speak for me.

Under control conditions prayer has been proven to be more harmfull when compared to a placebo treatment

Tell me where healing has occured that was not due to prayerful intent.

I have personally been healed and witnessed healing where no other explanation is possible unless you know of something I do not.

Blessings and peace

 

[cheamon]

He was fully human so that His nerve endings worked and suffered EXACTLY the same way that yours and mine would do. He was after all born of human flesh [the Son of Mary] though not of human urge.

Son of God though He was [and is] but fully human He was also, so that He felt exactly the SAME as would you or I.

In the words of St Paul: ‘though he was in the form of God, he counted equality with God a thing not to be grasped, but emptied himself and assumed the condition of a slave and became as all men are, even to accepting death, death on a cross, but God raised Him high and gave him the name which is above all names, that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord to the glory of God the Father!’

Blessings and peace

Okay, clearly you know exactly what it was like to be the Son of God incarnated, so my argument is a waste of time. As I’ve said before the amount of suffering is meaningless, quite literally, in the whole of eternity. I’d say that’s pretty obvious. Your argument was it’s more suffering because as God he would be eternal and greater than us. If I suffered as an ant for however long they lived, then became human again for eternity, the suffering would be far less than if I was an ant and only had an ants life to live. I’m done debating this as you keep pulling things out of your delusional mind, as is typical in these discussions.

Not to mention the only things you’ve replied to are the posts that you can respond to without addressing, or having to use factual evidence, and you’ve ignored the rest.

 

[kingtego]

So do you people admit that there are no contemporaneous records of anything involved with Jesus’ life? That is, he did not write anything down, nobody wrote anything down about him while he was still alive, and the only records of his life were written down over 20 years after he died.

 

[kingtego]

My emphasis

You assume that you are equal to Almighty God. Not a wise appraisal. Common sense dictates otherwise. Let me explain:

The fact that Awsome Almighty God should suffer at all is enormity beyond comprehension. The fact He suffered such ignomy, humiliation, pain and suffering over any period of time, is vastly in excess of the amount He liberated.

To understand how much He suffered and to understand how far above us He is, is to understand the amount He liberated. That the universe has existed for an incredible age, the fact it is only micro-seconds old compared to the longevity of Almighty God, the fact it is a mere infinitisimal speck of all that exists, yet He chose to suffer to pay the supreme price of infinite offence against an Infinite Almighty God.

A mere second would be an infinitisimally large amount of suffering to so high a Being. To suffer for the period that He did and to the extent that He suffered, was by far greater and outweighed the consequences of time so that your arguement becomes futile. Your own common sense and logic should tell you as much

Blessings and peace.

How is a few days of suffering a lage amount of suffering for an infinite being? I think you mean to say that it is infinitesimally small in terms of amount of suffering, in which case I would agree, and that further brings into question Christian theology.

 

[Queequeg]

My emphasis

I assume you are speaking for yourself. You do not speak for me.

You can not be 100% certain of anything, claiming you are 100% of God’s existance is delusion to say the least. Not only that but doubt is critical to christian belief in God because without doubt you have certainity and not faith.

To explain how you can not be 100% certain of anything I will refer to Descrate’s method of doubt. If you can imagine any situtaion were something my you assume to know to not be the case that assumed true is rendered false.

For example how can I me sure the this material world exists, I could in fact be asleep dreaming or be a figment of someone elses imagination. I can’t be certain because i see hear smell and touch what i experience is real.

Take this same principle for God, I have a life changing experience where I feel I’m in the presence of God. But as much as this may be God it may also be a delusion like described above, or the enitity may not actually be God. As these as explainations are a creadible as the explaination of God itself then there must be doubt and uncertainity.

Tell me where healing has occured that was not due to prayerful intent.

The majority of cases when conventual treament is used

I have personally been healed and witnessed healing where no other explanation is possible unless you know of something I do not.

Blessings and peace

as I said in my previous post anecdotical evidence is meaningless, so me a genuine trial where the results can not be attributed to the placebo effect

 

[SHW]

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one - George Bernard Shaw

A drunken man is not capable of true happiness.

Some persons are waiting for a personal visitation from God in order to believe in Him. They expect Him to do miraculous “signs” especially tailored to each person.

God sent His only begotten Son to earth 2000 years ago as Messiah to atone for Adam’s sin in order to make it possible for mankind to inherit eternal life. The Jews, however, were expecting a Warrior (Messiah) who would throw off the yoke of the Roman Empire. When they did not get what they were expecting, they rejected Him. What are you expecting before you will believe? So many people want a genie in a bottle who will come to do their bidding as soon and as often as they rub their lamps. Instead, Jesus is the Light of the World who saves souls from eternal death if they believe in Him and obey Him until death. (John 8:12, Mark 13:13, Hebrews 5:9)

The Signs of Jesus:

The Jews saw Jesus take 5 loaves and 2 fishes and multiply them in order to feed 5000 men and their families. 12 baskets of fragments were left over. Did this cause all the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus healed the sick and gave sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. Did this cause all of the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus cast out demons. Did this cause all of the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus raised persons from the dead. He Himself rose from the dead. Did this cause all the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

He founded a Church and it still exists 2000 years later. Does this cause all people to believe in Him? NO.

His followers wrote a book about Him and His Father and His Holy Spirit and their relationship with mankind and it has sold more copies than any other book in history. Does this cause all people to believe in Him? NO.

His disciples/followers died cruel deaths defending His Name and His Church. Does this cause all people to believe in Him? NO.

Numbers 14:11
Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?

Mark 16:20
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

John 12:37
But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

What are you expecting from God before you will believe?

 

[SHW]

Any historical records of any person who lived during Jesus’ time describing the events of Jesus’ life, with such records being written while Jesus was still alive.

The first of the Gospel’s were written, at the earliest, AD 50, 20 years after the death of Christ. More realistic estimates date them to be written AD 70 and later. These are not contemporaneous sources.

John’s Revelation was written during Nero’s persecution before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., probably about 67 A.D., because it foretells the Judgment of God with His coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

**
This is a reprinting of a letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar describing the physical appearance of Jesus.**

Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.

TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews – not the poor but the rich and powerful. Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day. Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree – truly this is the Son of God! Your most obedient servant, Pontius Pilate.

The following description of Jesus Christ was written by Publius Lentrelus, a resident of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Caesar.

There lives at this time in Judea a man of singular virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the barbarians esteem as a prophet, but his followers love and adore him as the offspring of the immortal God. He calls back the dead from the graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word or touch. He is a tall man, well-shaped, and of an amiable and reverend aspect; his hair of a color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very agreeable crouching upon his shoulders, parted on the crown of the head, running as a stream to the front after fashion of the Nazarites. His forehead high, large and imposing; his cheeks without spot or wrinkle, beautiful with a lovely red; his nose and mouth formed with exquisite symmetry; his beard, and of a color suitable to his hair, reaching below his chin and parted in the middle like a fork; his eyes bright blue, clear and serene. Looks innocent, dignified, manly and mature. In proportion of body most perfect, and captivating; his arms and hands delectable to behold. He rebukes with majesty, councils with mildness, His whole address whether in word or deed, being eloquent and grave. No man has seen him laugh, yet his manners are exceedingly pleasant, but he has wept frequently in the presence of men. He is temperate, modest and wise. A man for his extraordinary beauty and perfection, surpassing the children of men in every sense.

LETTER OF HEROD TO PILATE THE GOVERNOR is also on this web-page which tells of His punishment from God on his family and himself for their/his wrongdoing.

From: docrob.100megsfree5.com/descrip.htm

More descriptions and letters by non-Christians about Jesus also found on website /.

See for more references to the people of Jesus’ time period :
mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm

 

[SHW]

This is amazing:

THE REPORT OF PILATE THE GOVERNOR, CONCERNING OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST; WHICH WAS SENT TO AUGUSTUS CAESAR, IN ROME.

IN those days, when our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate, the governor of Palestine and Phoenicia, the things here recorded came to pass in Jerusalem, and were done by the Jews against the Lord. Pilate therefore sent the same to Caesar in Rome, along with his private report, writing thus:

To the most potent, august, divine and awful Augustus Caesar, Pilate, the administrator
of the Eastern Province:

I have received information, most excellent one, in consequence of which I am seized
with fear and trembling. For in this province which I administer, one of whose cities is
called Jerusalem, the whole multitude of Jews delivered unto me a certain man called Jesus, and brought many accusations against him, which they were unable to establish
by consistent evidence. But they charged him with one heresy in particular, namely,

That Jesus said the Sabbath was not a rest, nor to be observed by them. For he performed many cures on that day, and made the blind see, and the lame walk, raised the dead, cleansed lepers, healed the paralytic who were wholly unable to move their body or brace their nerves, but could only speak and discourse, and he gave them power to walk and run, removing their infirmity by his word alone.

There is another very mighty deed which is strange to the gods we have:
he raised up a man who had been four days dead, summoning him by his word alone,
when the dead man had begun to decay, and his body was corrupted by the worms which had been bred, and had the stench of a dog; but, seeing him lying in the tomb be commanded him to run, nor did the dead man at all delay, but as a bridegroom out of his chamber, so did he go forth from his tomb, filled with abundant perfume. Moreover, even such as were strangers, and clearly demoniacs, who had their dwelling in deserts, and devoured their own flesh, and wandered about like cattle and creeping things, he turned into inhibitors of cities and by a word rendered them rational, and prepared them to become wise and powerful, and illustrious, taking their food with all the enemies of the unclean spirits which were destructive in them, and which he cast into the depth of the sea.

And, again, there was another who had a withered hand, and not only the hand
but rather the half of the body of the man was like a stone, and be had neither the shape
of a man nor the symmetry of a body: even him He healed with a word and rendered whole.

And a woman also, who had an issue of blood for a long time, and whose veins and arteries were exhausted, and who did not bear a human body, being like one dead, and daily speechless, so that all the physicians of the district were unable to cure her, for there remained unto her not a hope of life; but as Jesus passed by she mysteriously received strength by his shadow falling on her, from behind she touched the hem of his garment, and immediately, in that very hour, strength filled her exhausted limbs, and as if she had never suffered anything, she began to run along towards Capernaum, her own city, so that she reached it in a six days’ journey.

And I have made known these things which I have recently been informed of,
and which Jesus did on the Sabbath. And he did other miracles greater than these, so that I have observed greater works of wonder done by him than by the gods whom we worship.

But Herod and Archelaus and Philip, Annas and Caiaphas, with all the people,
delivered him to me, making a great tumult against me in order that I might try him.

Therefore, I commanded him to be crucified, when I had first scourged him, though I
found no cause in him for evil accusations or dealings.

Now when he was crucified, there was darkness over all the world and the sun was
obscured for half a day, and the stars appeared, but no lustre was seen in them;
and the moon lost its brightness, as though tinged with blood; and the world of the departed was swallowed up; so that the very sanctuary of the temple, as they call it, did not appear to the Jews themselves at their fall, but they perceived a chasm in the earth, and the rolling of successive thunders.

And amid this terror the dead appeared rising again, as the Jews themselves bore witness, and said that it was Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve patriarchs, and Moses, and Job, who had died before, as they say, some three thousand five hundred years.

And there were very many whom I myself saw appearing in the body,
and they made lamentation over the Jews, because of the transgression which was
committed by them, and because of the destruction of the Jews and of their law.
And the terror of the earthquake continued from the sixth hour of the preparation until
the ninth hour; and when it was evening on the first day of the week, there came a
sound from heaven, and the heaven became seven times more luminous than on all other days.

And at the third hour of the night the sun appeared more luminous than it had ever shone, lighting up the whole hemisphere. And as lightning - flashes suddenly come forth in a storm, so there were seen men, lofty in stature, and surpassing in glory, a countless host, crying out, and their voice was heard as that of exceedingly loud thunder, Jesus that was crucified is risen again: come up from Hades ye that were enslaved in the subterraneous recesses of Hades.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

And the chasm in the earth was as if it had no bottom; but it was so that the very foundations of the earth appeared, with those that shouted in heaven, and walked in the body among the dead that were raised. And He that raised up all the dead and bound Hades said, Say to my disciples,
He goeth before you into Galilee, there shall ye see Him.
And all that night the light ceased not shining. And many of the Jews died in the chasm of the earth, being swallowed up, so that on the morrow most of those who had been against Jesus were not to be found. Others saw the apparition of men rising again whom none of us had ever seen. One synagogue of the Jews was alone left in Jerusalem itself, for they all disappeared in that ruin.

Therefore being astounded by that terror, and being possessed with the most dreadful
trembling, I have written what I saw at that time and sent it to thine excellency; and I
have inserted what was done against Jesus by the Jews, and sent it to thy divinity,
my lord.

from: docrob.100megsfree5.com/descrip.htm

 

[josie_L]

None of those are contemporaneous sources are they? Also, the Gospels were written, at the earliest, AD 50. 20 years after Christ’s death. How can we know them to be accurate?

Any sources for your claims?

How many times do I have to hear this argument? The fact of the matter is that historically speaking when compared to the biographies of other ancient figures which were written hundreds of years later (but considered reliable by historians), a mere 20 years is sort of like an ancient news flash. Historians and biblical scholars furthermore do not deny the existence of Jesus, so why are you? You also seem unaware of the fact that unlike our culture which can record events almost as they happen, ancient cultures relied on oral traditions (at first). The apostles and/or disciples of Christ were commissioned to spread the good news which meant they had to orally pass down this information. But that being said the writers of the N.T. realized the importance of preserving these oral traditions through the written word. The fact that the oral traditions (of the Catholic Church) corroborates with what the N.T. has to say is confirmation that it is reliable.

 

[reen12]

As to atheism and religious faith…

The canons of logic require that the believer prove that God does exist,
not the other way 'round. No one is required to prove a negative. i.e. -God does not exist.]

The best proof of God’s existence may well be the behavior of those who do believe.

reen12