Atheism - Paradox

[josie_L]

Saying that God is real because you feel him when you pray is not a valid argument for his existence. It is no more valid of an argument than the one that people used in Salem when they said they felt a persons presence as evil and that qualifies them as a witch (not trying to be offensive, just the first example that came to mind). The mind can play wonderful tricks on you.

P.S. I have prayed before and felt nothing. I was raised saying prayer before dinner every night, I prayed to god multiple times when I was younger and I truly meant it in quite a few cases. Never once have I felt anything that points to his existence.

Yes, it is valid as I have felt his presence and have had my prayers answered and I do not expect you to invalidate this claim simply because you have not experienced it. And if as you say the mind can play wonderful tricks on us then consider how this applies to you too. Personally, I don’t understand people who assume what they do not know.

P.S. Get over the fact that you didn’t experience it and ask yourself why He may not have answered your prayers (it might have to do with pride)? Or better yet He is answering your prayers just not the way you expect/ed it.

 

[josie_L]

As to atheism and religious faith…

The canons of logic require that the believer prove that God does exist,
not the other way 'round. No one is required to prove a negative. i.e. -God does not exist.]

The best proof of God’s existence may well be the behavior of those who do believe.

reen12

If someone is going to make a claim that God doesn’t exist (to a believer) then they should give valid thought out reasons as to why, and from there establish their case. In a court system we assume that someone is innocent until proven guilty. In other words if God is being put on trial then let the prosecutor (the atheist) find the means/arguments to prosecute him. As a defender I will refute with faith and reason as to why He does exist.

 

[josie_L]

First of all, Prince Charles didn’t arrive here from heaven with the purpose of dying and returning to it. Prince Charles likely fears death like most people. The difference between a human sacrifice like that and Jesus is that the human knows they are losing something when they die, Jesus just gets to return to the big ol’ blue sky.

What if Prince Charles made the sacrifice then went to hell because he believed something that was wrong? What if there is no god and he misses the only chance he has to live?

It’s a lot more of a dilemma for someone without the comfort of heaven than for someone who knows the suffering will end and he will return to heaven. Even if you believe that you will go to heaven, you’d face just as much doubt about making a sacrifice like that because it’s your instinct.

If I was sent from heaven and knew I would return would I make the sacrifice? Uh, yeah? It’s not even a question. Yes, it would hurt an unimaginable amount. There’s no loss for me and I can save an infinite amount of suffering for mankind. You do realize that 48-72 hours of suffering, as I said, is quite literally meaningless in eternity? As in in 1 billion years, who the hell will care? Not to mention the quadrillion years after that. And the quadrillion on top of that. So what’s he sacrificing? You would have to be the epitome of evil to NOT do it.

Let me lay out something else for you:

God = Omnipotent/Omniscient
aka God knows everything

So God would know that man would fall, and that Jesus would go and die for their sins

So God creates Lucifer anyways

So God indirectly sends his son to suffer for him and throws mankind out of paradise. Great guy.

Yes, He is great because despite what He saw He still loved us, and because He wanted/s us to love him He endowed us with free will. And that is the reason as to why evil exists because we choose to abuse our free will.

 

[cheamon]

If someone is going to make a claim that God doesn’t exist (to a believer) then they should give valid thought out reasons as to why, and from there establish their case. In a court system we assume that someone is innocent until proven guilty. In other words if God is being put on trial then let the prosecutor (the atheist) find the means/arguments to prosecute him. As a defender I will refute with faith and reason as to why He does exist.

Okay, well thanks for proving his point.

If the argument for God was like a court case, the only type it could be compared to is the Salem witch trials. In both cases you have to prove a negative, something that is quite literally impossible and goes against all logic.

Saying that we have to provide the proof that God does not exist is ridiculous because like you, I can say the following:

“In other words if the invisible elephant in my shoe that nobody can sense is being put on trial then let the prosecutor (the disbelievers) find the means/arguments to prosecute him. As a defender I will refute with faith and reason as to why the elephant does exist.”

You would then claim the burden of proof is us to show that the elephant is false, and if we don’t you can claim he is in fact real. See how crazy that is?

 

[cheamon]

Yes, He is great because despite what He saw He still loved us,

What? God would have known we would fall if he created Lucifer. Yet he decided to do it anyways and punish us and sacrifice his own son. It would have nothing to do with him loving us, it would have to do with him indirectly casting us down and putting the burden on his son. Please read what you are saying and then reread my post.

and because He wanted/s us to love him He endowed us with free will. And that is the reason as to why evil exists because we choose to abuse our free will.

You just agreed with me that god would see the future, now you claim we have free will. Sorry, that’s impossible. If god can see the future then everything has a set path and all our choices are predetermined. He would know what will happen in the future so there is only one possible way the future could pan out from our point of view.

 

[cheamon]

Yes, it is valid as I have felt his presence and have had my prayers answered and I do not expect you to invalidate this claim simply because you have not experienced it. And if as you say the mind can play wonderful tricks on us then consider how this applies to you too. Personally, I don’t understand people who assume what they do not know.

P.S. Get over the fact that you didn’t experience it and ask yourself why He may not have answered your prayers (it might have to do with pride)? Or better yet He is answering your prayers just not the way you expect/ed it.

This post is why people think theists are deluded. Instead of presenting an argument you say that you have experienced it and I cannot disprove it. Well, you’re right, as said earlier, it’s impossible to disprove a negative.

Have a nice day

 

[Charles_Darwin]

If someone is going to make a claim that God doesn’t exist (to a believer) then they should give valid thought out reasons as to why, and from there establish their case. In a court system we assume that someone is innocent until proven guilty. In other words if God is being put on trial then let the prosecutor (the atheist) find the means/arguments to prosecute him. As a defender I will refute with faith and reason as to why He does exist.

When it comes to knowledge the default position is always disbelief. You should not believe something until it is proven incorrect, that would be utterly ridiculous.

 

[Lilyflower]

Okay, clearly you know exactly what it was like to be the Son of God incarnated, so my argument is a waste of time. As I’ve said before the amount of suffering is meaningless, quite literally, in the whole of eternity. I’d say that’s pretty obvious. Your argument was it’s more suffering because as God he would be eternal and greater than us. If I suffered as an ant for however long they lived, then became human again for eternity, the suffering would be far less than if I was an ant and only had an ants life to live. I’m done debating this as you keep pulling things out of your delusional mind, as is typical in these discussions.

Not to mention the only things you’ve replied to are the posts that you can respond to without addressing, or having to use factual evidence, and you’ve ignored the rest./

 

[Lilyflower]

This post is why people think theists are deluded. Instead of presenting an argument you say that you have experienced it and I cannot disprove it. Well, you’re right, as said earlier, it’s impossible to disprove a negative.

Have a nice day

The fact of the matter is that deists all over the world throughout the past 2000-years, millions of them have had personal encounters with the Divine.

He come to those in a very personal way. He comes in a way that leave the Believer in absolutely no doubt, while all the time eluding you or leaving His calling card behind for you to interrogate.

That really irritate you as you have not. The Divine is holding out on you. I wonder why!!!

You tempt Almighty God when Scripture says that ‘You shall not tempt the Lord Your God’ First commandment given to Moses.

You are pig sick that Awesome Almighty God will not allow you to put Him under the miscroscope, analyse and disect Him.

You will not have to wait long to find out the truth. It will come. I wonder what you will say when you are faced with the Ultimate Reality and there is nowhere to run and no stone under which to hide.

Blessings and peace

 

[Lilyflower]

What? God would have known we would fall if he created Lucifer. Yet he decided to do it anyways and punish us and sacrifice his own son. It would have nothing to do with him loving us, it would have to do with him indirectly casting us down and putting the burden on his son. Please read what you are saying and then reread my post.

You just agreed with me that god would see the future, now you claim we have free will. Sorry, that’s impossible. If god can see the future then everything has a set path and all our choices are predetermined. He would know what will happen in the future so there is only one possible way the future could pan out from our point of view.

Your post has total contempt for Awesome Almighty God.

Christ created all that exists. That does not pre-destine anything.

I am free to love Him or like you, reject Him., It is MY choice. You have chosen, so have I. That is not pre-destination even though He knew from all eternity what yours and my choices would be. We still had '‘free-choice’. But I bet you reject Him and at the end of things, blame Him because you rejected Him as though it was His fault just because He could see from all eternity what your choice would be.

All knowing, He still gave you that choice. You still chose. He did not impose your choice upon you, it was your willful choice to reject. He had given you freewill, You chose to reject Him while paradoxially blaming Him for your choice. How sad is that??

Now that sounds to me like a loser who has chosen to lose just so that he can blame everyone else for your loss, and you say that we are the ones who are mentally ill!!!

Blessings and peace

Matter has to conform to the laws of physics, sorry but that is the way it is. That is not pre-destination but fact. Where it not so, matter would not have evolved as it has.

 

[reen12]

As to deity - and the existence or non-existence of same:

“I don’t believe in a deity.”
“My deity is a unicorn.”
“Oh really? Might I meet this unicorn?”
“You can’t see him. He is invisible.” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
“Never been a believer in unicorns.”
“You should believe in our unicorn. Prove to me that our unicorn does not exist.”

Alternately:

“*You can so see him. *Our deity walked on earth with us once.”
“Really? Who says?”
“Witnesses a long time ago.”
“And you trust these witnesses?”
“Absolutley.”
“It’s nice to see this expression of trust.”​

Christianity states clearly that faith is a gift of grace.

It is the lives we lead that may well be the ‘argument’
that best wins the day.

reen12

 

[Lilyflower]

SHW has offered you an interesting challenge. I note that you have not replied.

I guess that this is the weekend and all cauldron is adjourned until after the Sabbath so that you cannot reply until you have had instructions from your master [small ‘m’ intended]

I look forward to your reply.

Blessing and peace.

 

[Lilyflower]

As to deity - and the existence or non-existence of same:

“I don’t believe in a deity.”
“My deity is a unicorn.”
“Oh really? Might I meet this unicorn?”
“You can’t see him. He is invisible.” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
“Never been a believer in unicorns.”
“You should believe in our unicorn. Prove to me that our unicorn does not exist.”

Alternately:

“*You can so see him. *Our deity walked on earth with us once.”
“Really? Who says?”
“Witnesses a long time ago.”
“And you trust these witnesses?”
“Absolutley.”
“It’s nice to see this expression of trust.”​

Christianity states clearly that faith is a gift of grace.

It is the lives we lead that may well be the ‘argument’
that best wins the day.

reen12

A long time ago eh???

Not surprising

 

[reen12]

A long time ago eh???

Not surprising

Actually, did RC apologetics for decades - at least in the sense that
I challenged any misrepresentation of RC theology.
I figure that if yer gonna reject a set of claims, you ought to have
a clear idea of *exactly *what it is that you are rejecting. http://bestsmileys.com/cool/1.gif

As I recall, C.S. Lewis would be the first to challenge any
counter-argument based on the chronological appearance of given statements.

Just because it’s waaaay back then has nothing to do with whether
a statement holds truth.

Former Apologist, in the Northeast

reen12

 

[cheamon]

The fact of the matter is that deists all over the world throughout the past 2000-years, millions of them have had personal encounters with the Divine.

He come to those in a very personal way. He comes in a way that leave the Believer in absolutely no doubt, while all the time eluding you or leaving His calling card behind for you to interrogate.

That really irritate you as you have not. The Divine is holding out on you. I wonder why!!!

You tempt Almighty God when Scripture says that ‘You shall not tempt the Lord Your God’ First commandment given to Moses.

You are pig sick that Awesome Almighty God will not allow you to put Him under the miscroscope, analyse and disect Him.

You will not have to wait long to find out the truth. It will come. I wonder what you will say when you are faced with the Ultimate Reality and there is nowhere to run and no stone under which to hide.

Blessings and peace

Alright, I can see how my posts may have been aggressive and offensive. I am not claiming that any of you are any less intelligent because you believe in god. I apologize if it came off that way. Please take the following with an open mind and don’t simply reject it because you think you are right:

There are cultures that have beliefs that differ from yours, yet in the same way as you, they can put themselves in a “mystical” state and feel as if they have had a spiritual experience.

How do you explain the fact that the Native Americans, in their mind (just as you have of god in yours), had very real visions of “thunder-birds” and dozens of other gods? Please don’t try and explain this by saying that they were just experiencing your god differently, because their beliefs aren’t even comparable to Catholicism. I’m trying to point out that people have had polar opposite beliefs for the same reason that you do (because they can feel it), yet you would easily discount their beliefs as false. It’s no more possible for you to disprove the thunder-bird if a Native American said he is real because he can feel it, than for me to disprove god, so can you understand the frustration?

The fact is, we have put god under a microscope. We have disproved the majority of biblical stories. We have done all we can possibly do to show that modern religion is no different than religions of the past. The typical response has been either to accept the science and take parts of the bible figuratively or to flat out ignore mankind’s discoveries. Taking the bible figuratively after claiming it as literal for years shows the bible as a simple comfort to fill in the gaps of knowledge that have not been fully proven yet. Ignoring scientific fact is flat out ignorance of reality (I hope you can agree, I’m talking about young earth creationism, denial of evolution etc. Big bang and abiogenesis, I will admit, have not been proven without a doubt, just are shown to be both possible and very likely).

Atheism is growing exponentially throughout the world. There are countries where atheism is 70%+ of the population, and these are the happiest, healthiest, and most peaceful countries in the world (Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland).

Since you left off with typical fear mongering, I will leave you with the same. You have one life to live. So why don’t you live it to the fullest and enjoy the few years you have here. Don’t waste it trying to please a god you can’t be sure exists.

 

[cheamon]

Your post has total contempt for Awesome Almighty God.

Christ created all that exists. That does not pre-destine anything.

I am free to love Him or like you, reject Him., It is MY choice. You have chosen, so have I. That is not pre-destination even though He knew from all eternity what yours and my choices would be. We still had '‘free-choice’. But I bet you reject Him and at the end of things, blame Him because you rejected Him as though it was His fault just because He could see from all eternity what your choice would be.

All knowing, He still gave you that choice. You still chose. He did not impose your choice upon you, it was your willful choice to reject. He had given you freewill, You chose to reject Him while paradoxially blaming Him for your choice. How sad is that??

Now that sounds to me like a loser who has chosen to lose just so that he can blame everyone else for your loss, and you say that we are the ones who are mentally ill!!!

Blessings and peace

Matter has to conform to the laws of physics, sorry but that is the way it is. That is not pre-destination but fact. Where it not so, matter would not have evolved as it has.

It is quite impossible for him to be all knowing and for us to have free choice. It’s basic logic. Matter does have to conform to the laws of physics, I am aware. That’s in no way comparable to a deity that knows EXACTLY what will happen in the future. You’re analogies & comparisons have been terrible.

And what are you talking about I blame him for my choice? I don’t believe in god so that’s a ridiculous statement. I’m showing you how irony of the bible.

 

[Lilyflower]

Originally Posted by Lilyflower
If someone were to punch you on the nose and knee you in the soft spot then to add insult to injury, spit at you and make you drink their spittle, would you think ill of them?

Would you be angry, even momentarily?

I guess if you are anything like me [human] you would curse and swear.

Imagine not only not swearing but all the time praying for those who hurt you. Not only for the minute of spittle but for the entire time that you suffered the severe flogging and crucifixion. Had Christ but once got angry or resented any part of His suffering, the entire event would have been in vain.

He took the FULL WEIGHT of human weakness, never once getting angry for so to do was to surrender to human weakness above which He ascended so that evil could not say He succomed.

To suffer for a good man some might say it was worth it, but to suffer for us when we were still weak and sinful. To suffer for the crimes of Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc, could you have done the same? More to the point: would you have done so?

I can tell you that I would not have done, but then again, I am not the Son of God, I do not love to infinity.

Blessings and peace

Surely such a feat was nothing short of routine for the Son of God.

My emphasis

Hang on, let me get this right: you are saying that Awsome Almighty God for showing infinite love top create all that exists, He should suffer for all eternity.

You are saying that it is far more natural for Him to behave as your father behaves in respect of humanity and human suffering?

You think that Awesome Almighty God should suffer for all eternity for being infinite love as if love were weaker than hate?

It is ok to hate, hurt, torture, inflct suffering heaped upon suffering on human kind [Holocaust being a case-in point] but to love forgive and wish well, deserves every manner of perverted action, ill-will and suffering.

I have spent the past 40-years grappling with the mindset of evil and why he/it opposes Awesome Almighty God. The CC has not been able to explain it to me, neither has any book that I have read. Ironic that it has been explained to me in the past 24-hours and in incredible depth by atheistic contributors to this site.

Thank you for answering my questions. It scares me that you should know the answers to my questions. I have a far greater understanding of why evil exists and why it opposes Aweome Almighty God while paradoxically blaming Him for its existence…

Blessings and peace.

 

[cheamon]

SHW has offered you an interesting challenge. I note that you have not replied.

I guess that this is the weekend and all cauldron is adjourned until after the Sabbath so that you cannot reply until you have had instructions from your master [small ‘m’ intended]

I look forward to your reply.

Blessing and peace.

At the very most all that shows is that Jesus existed. Not that he was the son of god. And you are treating a christian website as a legitimate source for historical fact. If you can show me that text from a legitimate historical source I would be more inclined to believe you.

 

[cheamon]

My emphasis

Hang on, let me get this right: you are saying that Awsome Almighty God for showing infinite love top create all that exists, He should suffer for all eternity.

You are saying that it is far more natural for Him to behave as your father behaves in respect of humanity and human suffering?

You think that Awesome Almighty God should suffer for all eternity for being infinite love as if love were weaker than hate?

It is ok to hate, hurt, torture, inflct suffering heaped upon suffering on human kind [Holocaust being a case-in point] but to love forgive and wish well, deserves every manner of perverted action, ill-will and suffering.

I have spent the past 40-years grappling with the mindset of evil and why he/it opposes Awesome Almighty God. The CC has not been able to explain it to me, neither has any book that I have read. Ironic that it has been explained to me in the past 24-hours and in incredible depth by atheistic contributors to this site.

Thank you for answering my questions. It scares me that you should know the answers to my questions. I have a far greater understanding of why evil exists and why it opposes Aweome Almighty God.

Blessings and peace.

You completely misunderstood his post. He’s saying that as the son of god, saving the human race shouldn’t be short of a daily routine. As in, if he is all powerful, he must do stuff like that all the time. I don’t see how you can take that as meaning that he thinks god should suffer for eternity. Can you really not see how much you are twisting words trying to make everything fit into your beliefs?

 

[cheamon]

Every single post made by an atheist in this thread has been twisted and skewed in order to fit into these illogical arguments. I can’t stand this anymore. If you want to have an actual debate, I would be more than happy to have one, but if all you’re going to do is post non-falsifiable nonsense then I’m not going to waste anymore time. Every time one of you posts “I know its true because I can feel it” or the classical “you can’t understand god, inset theist explanation of how god works” I lose hope for mankind.