Atheism-Please Help

[lynchdm]

Hello all, and thank you again for helping me. I reread a couple of my posts and I want to stress that I’m not trying to sound condescending, and please call me out if I say something out of line. I am really frustrated with myself that I cannot agree with you at this point, and so I may sound a little irritable. I will try to keep this in mind.

kage_ar, I love books-thanks, I’ll look into it!

Tim, this is a good point, but to me the something vs. nothing argument is too open-ended, and it is not evidence either way. PM me if you want to discuss it further.

Thomas and catholicscot, you make good points. I am a musician, and I can really relate to what you said about the emotions a piece of music can stir in you. I’ll look at the links you provided, thank you!

redhen, thanks for the links. My girlfriend’s family really enjoys Peter Kreeft, and I recently got the opportunity to read a book by him about philosophy. I can’t wait to start.

Furthermore, I’m sure that none of you are from my area, but I am meeting next week with a Fr. Ben from Nativity Church in Green Bay. I don’t know if it will sound empty or sarcastic coming from me, but if you’d pray that what he says sticks with me I’d really appreciate it. Thanks again people.

 

[lynchdm]

Wow, I didn’t realize there was a whole new page of replies. Kind makes me feel special Anyway, thank you as well. I’ll try to continue replying to each individual post for as long as possible.

AwaitingHeaven, this is good analogy and it made me smile. It also made accepting the Genesis story a little easier. It just really bugs me when somebody claims the universe is so young, and as far as I can tell most theologians would agree. Knowing the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that is a relief! The Big Bang is also perplexing to me, but there may be more information about it than you or I are aware. I for one am no science expert.

Gail, I am aware that if I am wrong it is a sin, and this upsets me. However, I wouldn’t feel right calling myself a Christian unless I really believed it with every ounce of my body, and I don’t know if I can get there by fear of consequences. It reminds me of Pascal’s Wager, have you heard of it? It’s really interesting. Thank you for your time and your prayers.

Good afternoon Shannon. I believe the term “agnostic” is an adjective, meaning that evidence cannot prove one way or another. I think this means you can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, and since I do not accept the supernatural I would fall into the former category. I may be wrong about my definition, maybe I am agnostic. Anyway, as far as the Catholic faith goes, my girlfriend and her family are devout Catholic and they’re promoting Catholicism. It’s really the only denomination being pushed (I mean that in a loving way) on me. To be honest, any denomination would be adequate. The Catholic Church is the most traditionalized, and I do like that. I almost see the “go hard or go home” mindset. Being one who used to look for signs everywhere, I realize that you may be right. I’ll think about your questions, you made some great points. Thanks again, I hope to hear more from you.

VociMike, it gives me confidence to hear that so many people have had struggles like mine. My girlfriend’s father is one of the most religious men I have ever met, and he too didn’t believe when he was my age. What made me stop believing is that when I looked at religion with the same mindset I look at the rest of the world, the whole thing began to fall apart. It just didn’t make ligical sense to me, and the idea of faith became unattractive. To know my specific thoughts about religion, I’d have to dedicate some time for a pretty lengthy post, and I’m not sure if I should. I don’t want to speak “blasphemies” and offend anyone. I know I would hate it if I was Catholic and some young punk joined this forum and started bashing my beliefs! Maybe I’ll PM you. For your second question, you could find the answer in the paragraph above-my girlfriend’s family is devout Catholic and they’re really pushing (again, in a loving way) for me to become Catholic. My family’s Episcopal, but they’re just not dedicated in the way I’d like to be. As for your signature, I know the Catholic Church is relatively unchanging. Would that timelessness be what’s implied?

 

[ljprevo]

I would suggest reading Matthew 16:23

He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

We think as “HUMANS DO”

All I have read is how humans think and what they think they know or what they think they have proven. Modern science named everything today that has been proven.

Like spliting a atom? Then the realize whoa, this is dangerous. Well dah!

Try and think as God does open your mind, heart, and soul and look out the human window to a whole new world.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Hey guys, thanks for replying. Here are my thoughts:

Eucharisted, while some acts such as murder and rape are obviously detrimental to society, things like homosexuality and contraception are not considered evil outside of religion, and so to grasp this I must first accept the Church’s word as true.

Just wanted to remark on this a bit. Homosexuality and contraception are considered evil outside of religion. The Catholic Church is very wise and outspoken about these things (not just the CC either in fact) but they are evils even in the non-relgious community. IOW - one need not be relgious to understand what is wrong with it. .

Since I have not done this, I’m not sure it’s the best place to start. Saying that I must adhere to the truth is a good concept, but I do not know that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. I do not know that Jesus is God. I can’t start at a point and say “this is what I believe; it’s true.” If I start here then obviously I will end up where I start, believing that Jesus was God’s son. However, I look for reasons to believe, and in doing this it becomes much harder to get to the point of faith and belief.

I don’t know where I heard these next too statements, so I cannot give anyone credit - but they are very good points:

You will have faith when it is easier to have faith than to have none.

It would be better to live as if God exists and then learn upon death that He did not exist, than to live as though God does not exist and then learn upon death that He does exist.

You are never going to have proof in this life. Faith is a choice.

lynchdm, I do not have perfect faith. No one here does. If it were perfect, it would not be faith - it would be proof. I often question as you do, and all I can say is that it is easier for me to have faith in God than not to. Even if you do not believe God exists, you still do not have proof - you still only have faith. Belief that God does not exist is faith that God does not exist. You cannot escape the fact that you have faith. You believe one is more “logical” than the other, so you make a choice where to put your faith. But I don’t believe everything can be explained logically. For some reason several of my father’s family have received prophetic communications from dead family members. I have no idea why it happens to that family. Doesn’t happen in mine nor in my mother’s family. There is no logical way to explain seeing someone at the moment of their death when you did not even know they were dying. There is no way to explain a passed-on love one visiting you in a dream foretelling the death of another family member when there was no reason to believe that person was about to die. There are several other such incidences in our family. Does it prove God exists? Of course not. But it proves that not eveything is logical. Actually, I would say the Catholic teaching on the Communion of Saints does make this logical

God bless you on your search. I think you are closer to believing than you realize.

 

[VociMike]

What made me stop believing is that when I looked at religion with the same mindset I look at the rest of the world, the whole thing began to fall apart. It just didn’t make ligical sense to me, and the idea of faith became unattractive. To know my specific thoughts about religion, I’d have to dedicate some time for a pretty lengthy post, and I’m not sure if I should. I don’t want to speak “blasphemies” and offend anyone. I know I would hate it if I was Catholic and some young punk joined this forum and started bashing my beliefs! Maybe I’ll PM you.

No, please, go ahead and post your thoughts here. If you are charitable (and you strike me as being so) nobody will take offense. We’ve all heard much, much worse than you’re likely to say.

As for your signature, I know the Catholic Church is relatively unchanging. Would that timelessness be what’s implied?

Yes, something like that. By seeking to conform ourselves to God, as revealed to and through his Church, we may become immune to the ebb and flow of “conventional morality” where anything and everything has been justified at different points in human history. And only in that conformation to God’s do we become truly free - man’s “freedoms,” in fact, usually being just various forms of slavery to things which are beneath us and which drag us down into the mire.

 

[paul_c]

Derek,
It is good that you are seeking the truth and that you are open to it. That is the start of everything. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be open to you. Let it be a journey, because ultimately that is how it is for all of us. I am a cradle Catholic and always went to mass and read the bible but the journey really accelerated for me when a priest sent me to daily mass as a pennance. That really turned my life around. Now I can’t get enough. I feel driven to mass every day, I need to interact on faith and my faith and my interest continues to intensify daily. God works in mysterious ways. You just never know what the trigger will be to bring you in. But once you are in, there is no other life.

Since you like to read, let me make a few suggestions. First, as a good, easy to read primer, try “The truth about Catholicism” by George Wiegel. It tells you what we really believe and why and its really easy to digest. Another book that really made a difference for me was “the Song of Bernadette” It was written by a Jew about the visionary of Lourdes during world war II. I found it very inspirational. It was also turned into a movie that won something like 8 Oscars. Another book I read, was Lee Strobel’s , " the Case for Christ". In this book, Mr. Strobel, an investigative journalist, used his normal techniques to prove that Jesus was who he said he was. Its pretty well done.

Beyond this thread, you can also ask questions of the Apologists on things you have a concern on . They are very knowledgeable and if you look at the questions on the board today, you will see that most questions have been asked many times before since they refer you to previous answers.

Don’t worry about offending us. Most of the people on this board deal regularly with apologetics in very harsh arenas. By contrast, this is a very pleasant discussion. God Bless.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Hey guys, thanks for replying. Here are my thoughts:

Eucharisted, while some acts such as murder and rape are obviously detrimental to society, things like homosexuality and contraception are not considered evil outside of religion, and so to grasp this I must first accept the Church’s word as true.

[Sorry I am not an “expert” on homosexuality.]

Just to answer your query:

There is what you call universal moral truths. It is true that the Church does indeed recognize this and it is a part of Church philosophy.

Without going deep into philosophy, moral truths are universal whether or not you are a baptised Catholic. It is not a matter of “I am not a part of this and therefore that does not apply to me”. It is true that going to Catholic mass is an obligation for Catholics but the recognization of the moral evil of contraception is a universal moral obligation for everyone regardless of religion and race.

---

The Catholic Church holds philosophical reason in very high regard. Not to be biased, but that is one of those factors that seperates it from most religions, if not all. Unfortunately, it is difficult to understand for many unless they have taken a Catholic Philosophy course

 

[wasmit]

Hello,

I was baptised and raised Catholic from birth until I was 13, when my family switched to Episcopalian. I was a devout Episcopal for the next six years-I went to church regularly in college, sang in the choir, and gave money when I could. Now, through my own findings, I have rejected religion and am an atheist. Frankly, I would really like to come back to the Catholic faith but at this point I just can’t believe. Honestly, I would like to be proven wrong.

I would hate to be looked at as someone who is looking to stir up arguments, so please note that I am sincere. However, I will respond if there is something I don’t agree with. I will be respectful of you and your beliefs, so do not feel like you may be attacked. Is anyone willing to talk?

Thanks,
Derek

I am in a similar position to you, and found that the best course of action is to require evidence and rational arguments before believing something. Have an inquisitive mind. Ask things like “How do you know this?” “who wrote this and what was their motive?” “why is this a better belief than this”, etc…

As a question to you, why are you considering the catholic faith, and not protestantism, or anglicanism, or islam, or judaism, or hinduism, or buddhism, etc…

 

[wasmit]

Derek, I understand that you see the presence of Earth as a life-sustaining entity as perfectly explicable through scientific means, but it does not answer the existence of the universe itself. I cannot see how the universe itself could simply be on its own.

Neither can I.

That doesn’t mean “god did it”, though. That just means we both don’t know the explaination.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kirchoff
Derek, I understand that you see the presence of Earth as a life-sustaining entity as perfectly explicable through scientific means, but it does not answer the existence of the universe itself. I cannot see how the universe itself could simply be on its own.

Neither can I.

That doesn’t mean “god did it”, though. That just means we both don’t know the explaination.

Well, actually, it really does mean God did it. God being defined as the creator of heaven and earth. You see, there had to be an infinite energy source to start the universe according to the laws of physics. (infinite being defined as more than the rest of the universe combined) And to create the order we see (laws of Gravity, etc), the creator had to have infinite intelligence. We define such an entity as “God”