atheism

[Akheron]

My experience from people who “say” they are atheists:

1. They are angry at God for either something they believe that God should have done or did not do for them (or others) in their life, so now they deny Him.

Are you angry at Allah or Zeus or all the thousands of other gods that have been named throughout the history of the human race? If not, why do you deny them?

1. They had read the Scriptures and/or have attended/participated at a Church or had a relationship with the Lord in the past; however, living by God’s Word would make them accountable for their actions…that is something they do not want to do.

You seem to be under the impression that an atheist is someone that purposefully rejects God in order to get “carte blanche” to sin as much as they please. Allow me to object to that position: If an atheist is someone that deep down inside believes that God exists but just will not accept Him because he or she will then be held accountable for their actions, then this person: a) is not an atheist because an atheist is someone that doesn’t believe in any god, period; b) knows deep down inside that they are accountable to this God they profess they don’t believe in but believe in anyway, so it kind of negates your whole position of them liking not being accountable.

Everyone living in a society is accountable for their actions, wether they believe in a god or not. An atheist that commits a crime is held as accountable for it as a Christian is. This is how society is supposed to work.

However the atheist’s position is that he or she will have to face all this accountability in this life, and not after death. It makes it all the more important to behave according to society’s rules so as not to waste the only life you have in prison, for example.

The Christian, on the other hand, may feel that he or she is only accountable to God in the afterlife. Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Christians think that human beings are sinners in their very nature and that every bad thought or behavior can be explained by this sinful nature. Human beings may try as hard as they can, they will always succomb to sin at some point because they are “fallen” creatures. They sin because they are born this way. But if you are Catholic, you can go to confession and if you truly repent your sins will be “effaced”.

I am very aware that the following situation doesn’t represent the whole Catholic Church and that the majority of Christians live perfectly good lives in the respect of the rules and laws of society, but I have to ask this question: What do you think about the Catholic priests who molested children and then escaped punishment from society because of the silence of the Church and the protection of the Pope? Because of their religion, these persons escaped responsibility for their actions. The Church felt that it was enough that they had repented. If they truly repented and obtained the pardon of sins from God, it means that they have committed a crime against society and fellow human beings, did not face the consequences of their actions before their peers and because they said they were sorry it was all ok with God. In what sense would you say that these persons are held more accountable than atheists?

Creation just “screams” the existance of God, but then again, explaining this to non-believers is like trying to describe clouds to a blind person.

If you begin your proposition by calling reality a “creation” you are assuming the conclusion you seek to attain, therefore your reasoning is invalid and I am sorry to say that you won’t convince a non-believer. But even if we were to set this point aside and accept your proposition that the world we live in is an evidence of a creator god, we would have to ask: which god?

How sad is this, because it does not have to be that way for them. If they only understood just how much God truly loves them, they would find the peace they seek…even though many, many of them “voice” that they are at peace and are happy. They will never be a peace because of the “void” they have within them…if they were truly honest with others (and more importantly with themselves), they would have to admit that.

I don’t mean to offend you but I have to ask: how do you know that when atheists say that they are quite content with their absence of belief, what they really mean is that they are unhappy?

This feeling you call a “void”, could it be the awareness of our inescapable death? You can fill it with God if it makes you feel good. But other people may choose to face it with courage and self-honesty and to bear the knowledge that someday they will disappear from this earth into inexistence. And it is quite ok really, it is not as frightening as you think. You can confront your mortality and live happily.

The reality of our impending death doesn’t negate the fact that we are living right now. On the contrary it enhances it, because it makes us all the more aware of the limited time we have here and of the importance of making the most of it for ourselves and those around us that share the same fate, i.e. each and every living being. The concepts of happiness, respect and responsibility take a very immediate meaning that we cannot set aside because we live now and are judged now by ourselves and our peers according to our actions.

 

[rinnie]

I am not a biblical scholar but a little bit of research will show that the hebrew word used in Isaiah 45:7 and translated into “evil” is “ra’”. This word is used in many other places in the OT, including, for example, in Genesis to describe the “tree of knowledge of good and evil”.

So this verse seems quite clear that God created evil. Who else would have created it?

That’s an interesting question. I would say that God, being according to the Bible the first cause of the universe and the creator of everything and everyone, bears the ultimate responsibility for every bad action ever committed, even if said action has been committed due to the free will of human beings. If every chain of causality goes ultimately back to God, every chain of causality that leads to sin also goes back to God. How could it not be so?

On the same note, what do you think of the fact that God seems to set stricter moral standards for human beings than he sets for himself? After all he doesn’t respect his own commandments. Shouldn’t the higher being be a role model for his subjects?

Could you show me one thing that God did by breaking one of his commmandments?

And also (on ths same note) yeah right, God puts stricter morals on man than on himself, The man died on the Cross for our sins, Because he had none of his own. Tell you what, when you let someone hang you on the cross, you die rise again, then we can talk. Until then I will stick with God.

And you are right you are no biblical scholar by no means thats for sure. God never created evil man did. God allows evil but he also allows good. Its free will to what we choose.

You will never understand because you have no faith. This world is the test, you follow Christ and his commands you get Christ when you die.

You reject Christ and his commands you will never see him. Its quite simple really. You have the choice. You made yours. ITs as simple as that really!

By the way how can you agree that Gods give’s us free choice to choose to do good or do evil. and then at the same time say God is responsible for the evil we choose to do. Kinda talking out of both ends of your mouth on that one arent ya.

 

[rinnie]

By the way the tree of knowledge is just that. Knowledge to know the difference between good and evil. You choose to create either on your own. God is there to help if you ask him, but he will never push himself on you. God will never tempt you. The devil will.

How could God creating the tree of knowledge mean he created evil. Again makes no sense, Free will is free will. We don’t need God to create evil, man does it on his own. If not then how could man have knowledge to know the difference and choose?

 

[Akheron]

Hi Rinnie,

My intention was to respond to you with respect and I chose my words carefully so as not to offend anyone. I must have failed to do that and offended you in some way as you don’t seem to be willing to show me the same respect I tried to put in my words. I apologize for my failure.

Could you show me one thing that God did by breaking one of his commmandments?

Do I have to point out the many occurences in the OT where God kills?

And also (on ths same note) yeah right, God puts stricter morals on man than on himself, The man died on the Cross for our sins, Because he had none of his own. Tell you what, when you let someone hang you on the cross, you die rise again, then we can talk. Until then I will stick with God.

I am sorry to have to disappoint you but it is not in my ability to die and rise again. You are welcome to “stick with God” as I didn’t invite you to worship me instead nor compelled you to abandon your beliefs in any way.

May I ask in what respect did God die? To die means to exit one form of existence without the possibility of coming back. But Jesus did come back to this earthly life after his “death” and you seem to believe that God is still around. How do you reconcile the “death” of God and His continued presence?

And you are right you are no biblical scholar by no means thats for sure. God never created evil man did. God allows evil but he also allows good. Its free will to what we choose.

Do you not agree with the Bible? I thought Isaiah 45:7 was pretty clear.

Nevertheless, if we take your position that man created evil, well God created man who created evil. Man is a being with limited knowledge, but God is omniscient and therefore knew that man would create evil. Had He not agreed to the intrusion of evil in the world (assuming as you seem to do that evil wasn’t part of the early creation), then He would have prevented it. Maybe evil was part of God’s plan all along? Do you know God’s plan for mankind?

You will never understand because you have no faith. This world is the test, you follow Christ and his commands you get Christ when you die.

You reject Christ and his commands you will never see him. Its quite simple really. You have the choice. You made yours. ITs as simple as that really!

How does one choose to believe? My absence of belief is not a choice, it is a consequence of the absence of evidence and the result of a thougt process.

In the area of divine revelation, the available alternatives are numerous and yours just don’t weigh more to me than any other.

By the way how can you agree that Gods give’s us free choice to choose to do good or do evil. and then at the same time say God is responsible for the evil we choose to do. Kinda talking out of both ends of your mouth on that one arent ya.

You read more in my words than I intended to put in them. I apologize for my lack of clarity. I didn’t mean to agree that God gives us free choice as I do not believe in any god. But I know that Christians often use the concept of free will as an explanation for the presence of evil in the world. However I cannot see how man can have free will in the presence of an omnipotent god. If all your life is known to God before you live it, you don’t have free will, you have the illusion of choice but ultimately God knows all your decisions before you make them. You simply cannot choose to do something that God didn’t know you would do. Therefore it is my understanding that the ultimate responsibility for evil lies with God as He didn’t object to it though He had the power to do so. After all according to the Bible God chose to intervene in the world and to bend man’s free will according to His plan in many occasions.

 

[Akheron]

By the way the tree of knowledge is just that. Knowledge to know the difference between good and evil. You choose to create either on your own. God is there to help if you ask him, but he will never push himself on you. God will never tempt you. The devil will.

How could God creating the tree of knowledge mean he created evil. Again makes no sense, Free will is free will. We don’t need God to create evil, man does it on his own. If not then how could man have knowledge to know the difference and choose?

You misunderstood. I didn’t say that God creating the tree of knowledge means He created evil. I simply pointed out that the same hebrew word was used in both passages. Please read my post again.

If I understand correcty, you state that man created evil. I assume you refer to the story of Adam and Eve, meaning that they chose to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil fully aware that they would disobey God and invite evil in the world.

But you also seem to agree with an objection of mine: how did Adam and Eve know this action of theirs was evil before they ate the fruit that made them understand what evil was? If God’s creation was perfect in the beginning before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, there was no evil and Adam and Eve couldn’t have posessed any knowledge of something that didn’t exist. How could man choose to do evil before he had created evil? Please help me understand.

 

[rinnie]

Yes actually you did offend me. First of all when you accused him of breaking the ten commandments. Secondly when you accused him of creating evil. That kinda did it for me.

To ask about why I believe in what I do and what is fine. I have no problem with that. To ask about what scripture means thats fine.

But to point blank accuse God the Almighty of what you did, well as Jesus taught me throw the dust off the sandles and walk away. Which is what I will do. You not only offended me you offended the most important person in my life. This world and the next. SO yeah I am quite offended.

To the rest of you gotta get a whole lot done before Thur. night so gotta get busy. God Bless us all and keep us. And dear Blessed Mother please keep all of your children close to you heart. Amen. And dear Jesus maybe when I get back you can show me the patience you had when you were beat and spit on at the cross. Because I have a real hard time to see you crucified all over again. Please forgive me for not being a good example of your love the way I should be.

 

[Akheron]

Yes actually you did offend me. First of all when you accused him of breaking the ten commandments. Secondly when you accused him of creating evil. That kinda did it for me.

I didn’t accuse God of anything. I pointed out that God seems unwilling to follow the commandment that says “You shall not kill”. Have you read the Bible?

To ask about why I believe in what I do and what is fine. I have no problem with that. To ask about what scripture means thats fine.

Ok, thank you, now I know what I should and should not discuss with you.

But to point blank accuse God the Almighty of what you did, well as Jesus taught me throw the dust off the sandles and walk away. Which is what I will do. You not only offended me you offended the most important person in my life. This world and the next. SO yeah I am quite offended.

I am sorry, I don’t understand: “accuse God the Almighty of what you did”? What did I do? I haven’t killed anyone and I wasn’t present in the Garden of Eden. Furthermore how could I have not written what I have written, the God you believe in must have known that I would and He doesn’t seem to take offense of one person politely seeking enlightment. Why do you take offense on His behalf?

I don’t understand why you were offended by my words. I haven’t been impolite or disrespectful. I have merely pointed you to the content of your Scriptures. And the Scriptures say that God created evil and describe quite clearly how God kills.

I notice that you haven’t responded to any of my questions. That’s ok, please refrain from participating to this thread if it uppsets you.

 

[josie_L]

You misunderstood. I didn’t say that God creating the tree of knowledge means He created evil. I simply pointed out that the same hebrew word was used in both passages. Please read my post again.

If I understand correcty, you state that man created evil. I assume you refer to the story of Adam and Eve, meaning that they chose to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil fully aware that they would disobey God and invite evil in the world.

But you also seem to agree with an objection of mine: how did Adam and Eve know this action of theirs was evil before they ate the fruit that made them understand what evil was? If God’s creation was perfect in the beginning before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, there was no evil and Adam and Eve couldn’t have posessed any knowledge of something that didn’t exist. How could man choose to do evil before he had created evil? Please help me understand.

In Genesis we see that Adam and Eve living in paradise (before the fall) had everything they needed as God was generous and good towards his creation, there was however one stipulation, they could not eat from the tree of knowledge for they would die. Knowing this and knowing who God was (their Creator who loved them into existence) and what would happen if they ate of the fruit, freely disobeyed, i.e., rejected God when they chose to listen to the serpent who said that they would not die if they so ate from the tree of knowledge and moreover would be likened to God. In committing such an act Adam and Eve lost their innocence/holiness and were found guilty of sin. What you must understand is that they were not forced to disobey and/or reject God, so when they chose to disregard his laws and furthermore the Truth that He had revealed to them they had committed themselves to sin. The answer as to why there is evil is due to original sin and the free exercise of our will. I hope that this in some way answers your question.

 

[Akheron]

In Genesis we see that Adam and Eve living in paradise (before the fall) had everything they needed as God was generous and good towards his creation, there was however one stipulation, they could not eat from the tree of knowledge for they would die.

If before the fall there was no death in the Garden of Eden, how could Adam and Eve understand the command “Do not do that or you will die”?

Knowing this and knowing who God was (their Creator who loved them into existence) and what would happen if they ate of the fruit, freely disobeyed, i.e., rejected God when they chose to listen to the serpent who said that they would not die if they so ate from the tree of knowledge and moreover would be likened to God.

How would Adam and Eve have known that the serpent was trying to trick them into betraying God? Before they ate the fruit there was no sin in the Garden, how would they know what a lie was? How would they know what the sin of disobedience was?

If the serpent said to them that they would be like God if they ate the fruit, how would they have known that it was wrong, not knowing what wrong was, knowing only that God is loving and that love is a virtue that God wished upon them? Do Christians not strive to be as righteous as Jesus? Perhaps Adam and Eve thought they were doing just that, trying to be more like God in the positive sense of seeking to be more loving?

Why do you say that they “freely” chose to disobey as:

1. they obviously were tricked by the serpent, who seemed to have a more extensive knowledge than they had about sin
2. one can assume that the serpent was a creature of God just as Adam and Eve and thus created perfect and exactly as God intended it to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise
3. God knew what they would do before they did it thus they had no other option than to do just that that was destined to happen?

In committing such an act Adam and Eve lost their innocence/holiness and were found guilty of sin. What you must understand is that they were not forced to disobey and/or reject God, so when they chose to disregard his laws and furthermore the Truth that He had revealed to them they had committed themselves to sin. The answer as to why there is evil is due to original sin and the free exercise of our will. I hope that this in some way answers your question.

If you are perfectly innocent and have no concept of right and wrong, how can you choose between right and wrong? If I asked you to choose between “blip” and “blap” without giving you any possibility to understand what I am talking about, how could you make the choice that would please me?

To me it seems that they indeed were forced to do what they did because it was what God knew would happen and when you are subjected to an omniscient god every action you take is a part of that god’s knowledge and therefore impossible to avoid.

If they really had freely chosen their course of action against the will of God, then it would mean that they acted without God’s prior knowledge of the event and thus that God isn’t omniscient or wasn’t at that time.

 

[theistgal]

You know what theisgal I am taking off this week for sturgis south Friday. I am really disapointed in you thats for sure. But I earned this weekend comming up. The ole ball and chain turned 50. He got a new bike. Not only from hard work (by the way worked for the Gas company 30 years, beat cancer) but by the GRACE OF GOD) It’s our turn. God is wonderful and made this all happen. I refuse to listen to your garbage thats for sure. I have no respect for you thats for sure. You know better! To everyone else who want’s to know my story. Boy I can give you one!

I’m so sorry to hear that you have no respect for me. It is, after all, my goal in life to make everyone on the Internet like and respect me, even if I have to pretend to be something I am not.

Having recently turned 50 myself, my congratulations - and sympathies - to your “ole ball and chain”.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

Do you not agree with the Bible? I thought Isaiah 45:7 was pretty clear.

Nevertheless, if we take your position that man created evil, well God created man who created evil. Man is a being with limited knowledge, but God is omniscient and therefore knew that man would create evil. Had He not agreed to the intrusion of evil in the world (assuming as you seem to do that evil wasn’t part of the early creation), then He would have prevented it. Maybe evil was part of God’s plan all along? Do you know God’s plan for mankind?

…

God did not create evil or the Devil. They were not part of his plan.

God gave us free will. It is a mark of his love. It would be pretty hard to define the love of God. I suggest none of what you’re trying to say will adequately define it in a Christian understanding. So perhaps you’d take my word for it.

God loves his creations but this love also alllows them to choose. What’s a love if it’s being forced upon?

I agree, seeing how atheists thinks, if you say God was playing game. Why not created and ensure there’ll be no evil? Free-will superceded that; and love being voluntary.

 

[josie_L]

If before the fall there was no death in the Garden of Eden, how could Adam and Eve understand the command “Do not do that or you will die”?

I would assume God made them understand that it was something really really bad, I mean you don’t question the authority of the one who created you, this was God speaking to them afterall and they realized this. I think we can safely say they believed and trusted him on this matter up until they were tempted by the devil to eat the fruit believing if they did they would be like God. They had to have known they were committing a wrong as they were disobeying God.

How would Adam and Eve have known that the serpent was trying to trick them into betraying God? Before they ate the fruit there was no sin in the Garden, how would they know what a lie was? How would they know what the sin of disobedience was?

They knew what was said to them by God and therefore should have realized the serpent was up to no good. You have to understand that Adam and Eve had a relationship with God (who knows for how long before the serpent/evil came along), and this relationship was based on love and trust. They knew who God was and what that entailed, i.e., He created the Universe and everything in it out of love for his creation, man. So even if they were unaware of evil they were aware of God’s goodness. They were also aware of God’s truth and that truth was, to not eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge (they needed to trust God absolutely on this matter). The serpent tempted them, and Adam and Eve through their own fault and misusage of free will chose to act against God.

If the serpent said to them that they would be like God if they ate the fruit, how would they have known that it was wrong, not knowing what wrong was, knowing only that God is loving and that love is a virtue that God wished upon them? Do Christians not strive to be as righteous as Jesus? Perhaps Adam and Eve thought they were doing just that, trying to be more like God in the positive sense of seeking to be more loving?

Because they knew they could not eat from the tree of knowledge, and God being who he is had to be right (this was a matter of trusting, believing and obeying). So this was blatant disobedience on the part of Adam and Eve as they chose to disregard God’s truth for someone who was not God (for they knew there was only one God).

Why do you say that they “freely” chose to disobey as:

1. they obviously were tricked by the serpent, who seemed to have a more extensive knowledge than they had about sin
2. one can assume that the serpent was a creature of God just as Adam and Eve and thus created perfect and exactly as God intended it to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise
3. God knew what they would do before they did it thus they had no other option than to do just that that was destined to happen?

I say freely because they had free will. And although they were deceived they chose to be deceived by the serpent because what he was suggesting seemed so attractive to them. And yet they knew the truth and therefore should have trusted, believed and obeyed God and not the lies of the serpent who they knew was not God. Furthermore, Adam and Eve were not created perfectly (as nothing that is finite is perfect) but they were considered good (in that they were created with original holiness in mind). Now, this third question is trickier because it involves predestination and free will. And I will expound on this matter in another post.

 

[Reuben_J]

…
Why do you say that they “freely” chose to disobey as:

1. they obviously were tricked by the serpent, who seemed to have a more extensive knowledge than they had about sin
2. one can assume that the serpent was a creature of God just as Adam and Eve and thus created perfect and exactly as God intended it to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise
3. God knew what they would do before they did it thus they had no other option than to do just that that was destined to happen?

God’s instruction was obvious - **" … do not eat of the fruit." **They disobeyed when they chose to eat regardless of what the serpent did.

They did not know what ‘die’ meant? Give us a break friend. Genesis is perhaps a few thousand words and much less in the creation story. Not everything can be recorded there. Do you seriously think that God would give them an instruction and left them in the dark without knowing what the instructions and his words meant?

Fact - Adam and Eve exercised their free will and chose what they did. All of us do, you included.

 

[josie_L]

1. God knew what they would do before they did it thus they had no other option than to do just that that was destined to happen?

They were not destined in the sense that they were manipulated by God to commit those acts (he endowed us with free will) but God knowing it was going to happen (as He is eternal) knew of a way to rectify the mistake of original sin committed by our first parents (through Jesus Christ). You might ask why He didn’t create us without free will and the response to that is God could not create man to forcibly love him as that would no longer be love, so he endowed us with free will knowing we could and would reject Him. What caused the rift between Adam/Eve and God, is the nonconformity of their will with God’s will." Therefore God did not create evil we did.

If you are perfectly innocent and have no concept of right and wrong, how can you choose between right and wrong? If I asked you to choose between “blip” and “blap” without giving you any possibility to understand what I am talking about, how could you make the choice that would please me?

I’ve already explained this.

To me it seems that they indeed were forced to do what they did because it was what God knew would happen and when you are subjected to an omniscient god every action you take is a part of that god’s knowledge and therefore impossible to avoid.

Omniscient doesn’t mean he can violate our free will, for what point would there be in creating something that mindlessly loves and obeys you.

If they really had freely chosen their course of action against the will of God, then it would mean that they acted without God’s prior knowledge of the event and thus that God isn’t omniscient or wasn’t at that time.

No matter what world God would have created humans would always have the option to reject God because He is love. Being that He is love He can only accept a love which is freely given as that is the essence of love, i.e., God cannot contradict who He is and the nature of what He is and how he functions.

 

[Akheron]

God did not create evil or the Devil. They were not part of his plan.

How do you know God’s plan? What do you make of Isaiah 45:7?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

If God didn’t create evil then where did evil come from?

If it came from the free will of man, it means that evil was inside man from the beginning, implying that God put it there since God created man. If God is the creator of everything there is and ever will be, is He not also the creator of evil, as evil is present in His creation? Either He is the absolute creator of everything, including evil, or He is not.

If evil came from outside of God’s creation then it means that there is another creator at work in the universe, a competitor with whom God is either unwilling or unable to rival.

God gave us free will. It is a mark of his love. It would be pretty hard to define the love of God. I suggest none of what you’re trying to say will adequately define it in a Christian understanding. So perhaps you’d take my word for it.

Why should I take your word for it? I am very interested in your opinion and I thank you for responding to me but I cannot assume that your opinion reflects the truth of the universe, no more than you can take the word of a believer of another religion for what it says.

You suggest that I, being an non-believer in the Christian God, couldn’t possibly understand the love of God as a Christian understands it. So it means that you don’t have full access to all the glory of the love of God unless you are a Christian. You have to become a Christian first in order to experience the love of God with a full understanding. Should not an almighty, benevolent, divine Father make all His love available to all His children without strings attached?

God loves his creations but this love also alllows them to choose.

I understand what you say. Loving someone is allowing them to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes in order for them to learn and to grow as human beings. I agree.

But loving someone also means protecting them from harming themselves and others by ignorance or failure of judgment especially if you yourself have the benefice of some knowledge that is not available to them. Would you let your innocent children stick their fingers in the mains in order to let them exercise their free will and grow as human beings? Especially if you absolutely knew in advance that they would do that and what the consequences would be for themselves and others?

What’s a love if it’s being forced upon?

I don’t mean to be rude, please pardon me if I sound so, but reading this sentence makes me inclined to suggest that you could discuss the matter with the Inquisitors when you meet them in heaven. They too claimed to know God’s plan.

I agree, seeing how atheists thinks, if you say God was playing game.

I have to point out that I don’t mean to represent “how atheists think”. I state my own thoughts, that’s all. And I have not said that I thought God was playing game. I seek to understand the character of God as described in the Bible and the Christian doctrine.

Why not created and ensure there’ll be no evil? Free-will superceded that; and love being voluntary.

You mean that the necessity of free will and voluntary love supersedes the omnipotence of God? A constrained omnipotence is an oxymoron.

Couldn’t God possibly have created human beings with free will but without the choice of evil? A truly omnipotent and benevolent deity could surely have laid an infinity of alternatives before man that allowed him free will without any of them implying evil.

 

[Akheron]

I would assume God made them understand that it was something really really bad, I mean you don’t question the authority of the one who created you, this was God speaking to them afterall and they realized this. I think we can safely say they believed and trusted him on this matter up until they were tempted by the devil to eat the fruit believing if they did they would be like God. They had to have known they were committing a wrong as they were disobeying God.

You assume that God did something even though you cannot possibly know? How can you do that?

I apologize for my being obtuse but you insist on using words as “bad”, “devil”, “wrong”, “disobeying”, words that describe concepts that an innocent being without knowledge of good and evil would have no grasp on whatsoever.

They knew what was said to them by God and therefore should have realized the serpent was up to no good.

How? There was no sin or evil in the Garden of Eden, how could they have suspected the presence of something that didn’t exist at that point?

You have to understand that Adam and Eve had a relationship with God (who knows for how long before the serpent/evil came along), and this relationship was based on love and trust.

Well, I have heard that some Christians think you can addition all the generations mentioned in the Bible going back to Adam and you get a total of approximately 6000 years. That is 6000 years between the present time and the fall of man. Assuming that Adam didn’t age prior to the fall because he hadn’t been punished with death yet, it could have been millions of years between the divine act of creation in six days and the fall. But there seems to be some debate between Christians on this particular point and it is a bit confusing.

They knew who God was and what that entailed, i.e., He created the Universe and everything in it out of love for his creation, man. So even if they were unaware of evil they were aware of God’s goodness. They were also aware of God’s truth and that truth was, to not eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge (they needed to trust God absolutely on this matter).

You make my points:

• God created the universe and everything in it, including evil, evil being a part of the universe.
  -Adam and Eve were unaware of evil: how could they possibly have avoided it if they hadn’t the ability to recognize it?

The serpent tempted them, and Adam and Eve through their own fault and misusage of free will chose to act against God.

In what sense did they act against God, as they were acting according to God’s prior knowledge of the event? It sounds to me like they acted precisely inside the frame of God’s omniscience and omnipotence.

Because they knew they could not eat from the tree of knowledge, and God being who he is had to be right (this was a matter of trusting, believing and obeying).

Assuming that God created right and wrong, He could have created the concept of right in a way that would not have caused suffering in His beloved creation. You say “He had to”, how can the omnipotent creator of the entirety of the universe “have to” do anything?

So this was blatant disobedience on the part of Adam and Eve as they chose to disregard God’s truth for someone who was not God (for they knew there was only one God).

Genesis 1:26:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

In this verse, God is called Elohim, which is a plural noun. So maybe God didn’t make Himself very clear to Adam and Eve regarding His uniqueness as a divine being.

I say freely because they had free will. And although they were deceived they chose to be deceived by the serpent because what he was suggesting seemed so attractive to them. And yet they knew the truth and therefore should have trusted, believed and obeyed God and not the lies of the serpent who they knew was not God.

Again, the words “deceive” and “lies” wouldn’t have meant anything to Adam and Eve prior to them eating the fruit.

Furthermore, Adam and Eve were not created perfectly (as nothing that is finite is perfect) but they were considered good (in that they were created with original holiness in mind). Now, this third question is trickier because it involves predestination and free will. And I will expound on this matter in another post.

You mean that a perfect creator created a flawed creature, how could that be? Was it a conscious decision from God or did something unforeseen happened?

 

[Akheron]

God’s instruction was obvious - **" … do not eat of the fruit." **They disobeyed when they chose to eat regardless of what the serpent did.

I agree that God’s instruction is quite obvious, to us. How can you know how an innocent creature without knowledge of good and evil in the Paradise of God would have understood it?

You say they disobeyed, I say they opted for another proposition that seemed to them as justifiable as the first since they had no way of weighing the one against the other in an informed way, as they had no knowledge of good and evil.

They did not know what ‘die’ meant? Give us a break friend.

If God threatened them with death if they would eat the fruit, does it not imply that they didn’t die prior to that? Do children know what death is before it is explained to them or they see it for themselves?

Genesis is perhaps a few thousand words and much less in the creation story. Not everything can be recorded there.

Why? Isn’t Genesis part of the inspired Word of God? How could we, mere mortals, simply infer knowledge about God that He chose not to state explicitly?

Do you seriously think that God would give them an instruction and left them in the dark without knowing what the instructions and his words meant?

Why give them an instruction in the first place as He already knew they would eat from the fruit?

Fact - Adam and Eve exercised their free will and chose what they did. All of us do, you included.

I agree that I exercise my free will and choose what to do most of the time, according to the situations I am confronted with and taking into account the rights and needs of others. But I use my experience as a human being of some age and the social tools that evolution has formed in my brain, I am not a newly created being with a blank space in my mind and without discernment, subjected to the will of an omnipotent deity.

 

[Reuben_J]

How do you know God’s plan? What do you make of Isaiah 45:7?

I know God’s plan in that it is taught to me by the Church and the Bible.
Isaiah 45:7 simply says that God makes all things. Not the devil because they were once angels; not evil because everything were once good (see Genesis).

I form the light, and create the darkness,
I make well-being and create woe;
I, the Lord, do all these things. Is45:7

If God didn’t create evil then where did evil come from?

It is already mentioned here many times – from man’s choice because he is given freewill.

If it came from the free will of man, it means that evil was inside man from the beginning, implying that God put it there since God created man. If God is the creator of everything there is and ever will be, is He not also the creator of evil, as evil is present in His creation? Either He is the absolute creator of everything, including evil, or He is not.

This is what freewill is all about – to choose. Unless you say that freewill is evil.

As I explained, freewill is a priced to be paid but that’s because the nature of love – it is not forced upon.

If evil came from outside of God’s creation then it means that there is another creator at work in the universe, a competitor with whom God is either unwilling or unable to rival.

Evil is not created. Sorry I don’t share your logic. It comes from freewill of choice.

Why should I take your word for it? I am very interested in your opinion and I thank you for responding to me but I cannot assume that your opinion reflects the truth of the universe, no more than you can take the word of a believer of another religion for what it says.

No you don’t. I respect your belief even if you don’t believe in God. I only come in to clarify when you misunderstand Christianity and when you misrepresent it. I am merely stating what Christian believes about God not what everybody believes.

You do not believe in God but if you want to talk about him it is reasonable to at least listen to what the believers believe what God is.

You suggest that I, being an non-believer in the Christian God, couldn’t possibly understand the love of God as a Christian understands it.

Yes, you are right. You could not possibly understand the love of God until and unless you experience it. Nobody can describe it to you or make you truly understand without you believing and experiencing it. You reject God, how then can you experience and understand his love? If you believe and experience his love, how then can you reject him?

So it means that you don’t have full access to all the glory of the love of God unless you are a Christian.

Yes. Sorry but that’s what it teaches. “ … eternal life for one who believe …”

You have to become a Christian first in order to experience the love of God with a full understanding. Should not an almighty, benevolent, divine Father make all His love available to all His children without strings attached?

Yes, that’s how it is. I can explain it on and on but it may bore you especially for things that you already don’t believe in.

I understand what you say. Loving someone is allowing them to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes in order for them to learn and to grow as human beings. I agree.

I agree on the first but not the second part.

 

[Reuben_J]

Continue.

But loving someone also means protecting them from harming themselves and others by ignorance or failure of judgment especially if you yourself have the benefice of some knowledge that is not available to them. Would you let your innocent children stick their fingers in the mains in order to let them exercise their free will and grow as human beings? Especially if you absolutely knew in advance that they would do that and what the consequences would be for themselves and others?

There are many things involved here. Since you don’t want to take it from me about the love of God, it makes this discussion a bit difficult. But I try.

You are defining love according to what it means to you and then proceeding to apply it accordingly. You cannot do that with God. In fact an English language does not have a word for God’s love. We take it from Greek – agape. His love is not erotic love or brotherly love but agape love.

Again you have to consider all the history of God as revealed to mankind from the beginning to truly understand why he does the thing he does.

You are speaking therefore on a wrong premise and I cannot answer you on that.

I don’t mean to be rude, please pardon me if I sound so, but reading this sentence makes me inclined to suggest that you could discuss the matter with the Inquisitors when you meet them in heaven. They too claimed to know God’s plan.

No you are not. We are only trying to discuss a point. No problem. The Inquisitors were wrong and not God abiding. Some of the things they did have been disassociated with by the Church. John Paul 2 formally said them during his reign. I should say that’s an old argument and has ceased to interest.

I have to point out that I don’t mean to represent “how atheists think”. I state my own thoughts, that’s all. And I have not said that I thought God was playing game. I seek to understand the character of God as described in the Bible and the Christian doctrine.

My apology if I generalized you and atheists. We can never stop learning and I am willing to learn. You can start with us here. It is not difficult to know God – it’s a matter of making a decision. I caution you though – the mystery will only be revealed if we behave like little children.

You mean that the necessity of free will and voluntary love supersedes the omnipotence of God? A constrained omnipotence is an oxymoron.

Again, you have to know the background of God’s history with mankind. On the surface it looks oxymoron but it has good rationale if seen in context. Or maybe I did not put it properly for want of words and lack of ability that you don’t seem to access to the rationale.

God’s love is also governed by his justice. His justice is delivered with his compassion. He cannot be the truth if his loves betray both.

Couldn’t God possibly have created human beings with free will but without the choice of evil? A truly omnipotent and benevolent deity could surely have laid an infinity of alternatives before man that allowed him free will without any of them implying evil.

I said God plays game and I think that’s the nearest it can be understood by a layman. Actually I cannot say that as a Christian because it sound to demean God but I thought you would understand if I relate it in that manner.

God is love. God is just. God is compassionate. He cannot compromise on these characteristics nor do any one of them at the expense of the other.

He loves his creation – he creates them. He does not have to do it – he is complete on his own.

When creations disobey/sin – they face the consequence –death. That’s the justice. Obey, you experience the wealth of his glory; disobey, you are separated from him – and that means death because we cannot be on our own – there are just too many predators.

Even though if you disobey but regret it, his compassion allows you to be restored. But the price must be paid – he himself paid the price. That his love.

May God bless you. Please don’t be offended about the wish; it’s just a Christian wishing you well.

 

[Akheron]

They were not destined in the sense that they were manipulated by God to commit those acts (he endowed us with free will)

You say that God “manipulated” Adam and Eve, does it not imply that He infriged on their free will? If I manipulate you, I make you do what *I *want you to do and even though you still feel that you are choosing freely, you are actually doing as I want, not as *you *want.

but God knowing it was going to happen (as He is eternal) knew of a way to rectify the mistake of original sin committed by our first parents (through Jesus Christ).

How come God, being perfect and omnipotent, finds Himself forced to rectify a mistake He knew would happen? Would an engineer go on with the building of a bridge he knew from the start would collapse and kill a lot of people?

You might ask why He didn’t create us without free will and the response to that is God could not create man to forcibly love him as that would no longer be love, so he endowed us with free will knowing we could and would reject Him. What caused the rift between Adam/Eve and God, is the nonconformity of their will with God’s will." Therefore God did not create evil we did.

You say “God could not”, is He not omnipotent?

If God created man in His own image, man’s will should have be conform to God’s will from the start. If God created man with an inherent ability to sin, does it not imply that God Himself has an inherent ability to sin? God would not have created an being inferior to Himself that possessed characteristics He didn’t Himself possess because that would have made man into a being larger than God.

I’ve already explained this.

Your explanation made no sense to me.

Omniscient doesn’t mean he can violate our free will,

Omniscient means God knows everything that will ever happen in the universe He has created.

Omnipotent means He can do whatever He wants regardless of how many rules He has to break.

for what point would there be in creating something that mindlessly loves and obeys you.

Is it not what Heaven is supposed to be? A place where you experience perfect bliss and perfect love for God all the time without the choice of doing evil? Is “mindless love” not what God ultimately wishes upon His creatures? Or do man have free will in Heaven?

No matter what world God would have created humans would always have the option to reject God because He is love. Being that He is love He can only accept a love which is freely given as that is the essence of love, i.e., God cannot contradict who He is and the nature of what He is and how he functions.

It sounds like you mean that man is quite powerful as he can somehow manage to overtrump the limitless abilities of God.

I also notice that you place a lot of limitations on the person of God. God cannot do this and God cannot do that. Why is that?