atheism

[josie_L]

How could they know it was wrong when they hadn’t yet obtained the knowledge of what “wrong” is? How would they understand that “obey” was right and “disobey” was wrong if they didn’t know what right and wrong was? What were they to do with the threat of “death” if they didn’t know what “death” was? How would they understand the seriousness of the threat or even the concept of threat itself?

They did obtain knowledge of what they shouldn’t do (from God no less) and they were told what would happen if they did (and it’s something bad because God is warning them it’s bad). And according to scripture they must have had knowledge of what death was:

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, “You must not eat from my tree in the garden?”

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say “You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.”

Now look at what the serpent says to them:

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

Adam and Eve chose to reject what God said (that they would die), choosing instead to believe the serpent (that they wouldn’t die). They in other words believed God was lying to them. But why would they disbelieve God knowing He had created them, loved them, sheltered them, fed them, essentially gave them everything they needed? It was because they wanted to be like God (just like the Devil). They were deceived simply because the offer was too tempting to resist, i.e., their desires were more important to them than their love for God.

 

[josie_L]

How could they know it was wrong when they hadn’t yet obtained the knowledge of what “wrong” is? How would they understand that “obey” was right and “disobey” was wrong if they didn’t know what right and wrong was? What were they to do with the threat of “death” if they didn’t know what “death” was? How would they understand the seriousness of the threat or even the concept of threat itself?

Don’t human beings, and mammals in general, reproduce by themselves? (Well, it takes one of each sex of course). Do you mean that it is the hand of God that puts the sperm inside the egg?

How has He made everything possible to prevent us from getting punished for eternity as He is the one that put the forbidden tree within the reach of Adam and Eve, even if He could have put it at an infinity of other, safer locations? Furthermore He is the one who decided of the punishment to be dealt upon His creatures, could He not have chosen a punishment that did not imply eternal suffering for His children?

How could you not do something that an omniscient God had foreseen you would do?

Let me begin by stating that I don’t understand how one can reconcile the belief in an omniscient deity and the concept of free will.

But assuming that one could, are you sure humans really want free will if the price is eternal suffering and the isolation from God? Would you not rather choose to be in the presence of your God even if you had to surrender your free will to get there? Furthermore, is it not what the Bible promise the Christians will get at the end of their life on earth: eternity at the side of their God. I assume this means free will disappear because how could you have the free will to sin in Heaven?

My intention wasn’t malicious. I am simply surprised that you profess a perfect understanding of the meaning of Genesis while millions of Christians cannot agree on it.

Is it enough?

I don’t doubt that. But millions of Christians, including Catholics, have killed and been killed because of the lack of clarity of God’s message. Maybe He could have been a bit clearer as He knew that millions would die as a result of the (for you apparent) confusion.

How could things want to influence us? Things have no intentions.

Why is Satan doing well in a world created by an omnipotent, benevolent God? Does Satan have a God-granted free will too?

I was merely pointing out that it doesn’t make any sense to say that a being existing outside of time could have turned back if He wanted. I have no positive nor negative feelings about this fact.

Does the essence of human love change or merely its manifestations?

If you work hard to achieve your goals, it means that you don’t leave everything to God. You yourself take actions in the pursuit of your goals.

Neither do they to me. But I need money to feed myself, as manna doesn’t seem to rain down from the sky much anymore.

For the sake of expediency and efficiency can you limit your questions to at least two a post? We can hardly answer all the questions that you throw at us in a cohesive and thorough manner if you persist doing this. Thanks.

p.s. Did you read the Bible prior to this? And are you looking into reading books that would further your understanding of our (Catholicism) theology? Otherwise talking to us will be very difficult as we would be incapable of answering all your questions without some basis of understanding/knowledge on your part? I also think some of the questions you ask might require a response that would be better served by reading a book or online encyclicals.

 

[Reuben_J]

p.s. Did you read the Bible prior to this? And are you looking into reading books that would further your understanding of our (Catholicism) theology? Otherwise talking to us will be very difficult as we would be incapable of answering all your questions without some basis of understanding/knowledge on your part? I also think some of the questions you ask might require a response that would be better served by reading a book or online encyclicals.

Yes, I thought too. Sometimes it seems he’s just pouncing on slip of words, things we take for granted if he has proper groundwork knowledge on the subject. Personally I don’t mind answering all that but, yes, for the sake of expediency lot of space is wasted in clarifying and explaining what could be known as matter of fact.

He did not say he want a debate; merely wanting to know Christians view. But the discussion looks like its going to detoriate into one - unhelpful one at that.

 

[Reuben_J]

Adam and Eve chose to reject what God said (that they would die), choosing instead to believe the serpent (that they wouldn’t die). They in other words believed God was lying to them. But why would they disbelieve God knowing He had created them, loved them, sheltered them, fed them, essentially gave them everything they needed? It was because they wanted to be like God (just like the Devil). They were deceived simply because the offer was too tempting to resist, i.e., their desires were more important to them than their love for God.

Beautiful.

My Sunday school teacher could not have done better.

God bless.

 

[josie_L]

Yes, I thought too. Sometimes it seems he’s just pouncing on slip of words, things we take for granted if he has proper groundwork knowledge on the subject. Personally I don’t mind answering all that but, yes, for the sake of expediency lot of space is wasted in clarifying and explaining what could be known as matter of fact.

He did not say he want a debate; merely wanting to know Christians view. But the discussion looks like its going to detoriate into one - unhelpful one at that.

I feel like he fires questions like one would bullets.

 

[josie_L]

Beautiful.

My Sunday school teacher could not have done better.

God bless.

Thank you for your kind words. God bless.

 

[Akheron]

They did obtain knowledge of what they shouldn’t do (from God no less) and they were told what would happen if they did (and it’s something bad because God is warning them it’s bad). And according to scripture they must have had knowledge of what death was:

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, “You must not eat from my tree in the garden?”

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say “You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.”

Now look at what the serpent says to them:

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

I don’t see where it is explained to Adam and Eve what death was. Neither God nor the serpent make themselves clear on that point.

See Genesis 3:

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

I would seem to mean that prior to them eating the fruit Adam and Eve were allowed to live forever. Having never experienced death, how would they have known what it was if neither God nor the serpent explained it to them? Yes, God could very well have explained it to them without the Bible saying so but I assume that the Bible is the Perfect Word of God and therefore is perfectly as God intended, why would you infer some guesses into the text?

Adam and Eve chose to reject what God said (that they would die), choosing instead to believe the serpent (that they wouldn’t die). They in other words believed God was lying to them. But why would they disbelieve God knowing He had created them, loved them, sheltered them, fed them, essentially gave them everything they needed? It was because they wanted to be like God (just like the Devil). They were deceived simply because the offer was too tempting to resist, i.e., their desires were more important to them than their love for God.

If God had made perfectly clear to Adam and Eve that He was the omnipotent creator of everything, do you really think that they would have dared to offend Him if they understood death? Would you?

And if Adam and Eve were created in God’s image with the potential to sin in their hearts, wouldn’t that mean that God also has the potential to sin in His heart? Being omnipotent, He can do what He wants, including sin.

 

[Akheron]

For the sake of expediency and efficiency can you limit your questions to at least two a post? We can hardly answer all the questions that you throw at us in a cohesive and thorough manner if you persist doing this. Thanks.

I am sorry to overwhelm you. Maybe I should stop posting questions and review the ones I have posted precedently and that haven’t been answered.

p.s. Did you read the Bible prior to this? And are you looking into reading books that would further your understanding of our (Catholicism) theology? Otherwise talking to us will be very difficult as we would be incapable of answering all your questions without some basis of understanding/knowledge on your part? I also think some of the questions you ask might require a response that would be better served by reading a book or online encyclicals.

I have read the NT and I am slowly working my way through the OT, which is quite a chocking experience. I am also in the process of reading the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, which I already am quite familiar with.

I registered to this forum because I read some unfounded assumptions about atheists on this thread and another one and I felt I needed to react. Then I got caught in this discussion. I will humbly accept to interrupt this discussion and leave the thread if I am causing any trouble to you or anyone else.

 

[djeter]

Originally Posted by Akheron

You don’t have to work hard to convince me. Please don’t try to convert me to your faith. This is not the purpose of my presence here, I just want to understand the Christian point of view.

---

You might find this profitable:

Roman Catholic Theologian John Haught who teaches at Georgetown U. explains why science and God are not at odds, why Mike Huckabee worries him, and why Richard Dawkins and other “new atheists” are ignorant about religion. He was interviewed by Steve Paulson who authored the piece.

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/05/the-atheist-delusion-an-interview-with-prof-john-haught/

Regards

dj

You can find it here:

 

[Akheron]

Originally Posted by Akheron

You don’t have to work hard to convince me. Please don’t try to convert me to your faith. This is not the purpose of my presence here, I just want to understand the Christian point of view.

---

You might find this profitable:

Roman Catholic Theologian John Haught who teaches at Georgetown U. explains why science and God are not at odds, why Mike Huckabee worries him, and why Richard Dawkins and other “new atheists” are ignorant about religion. He was interviewed by Steve Paulson who authored the piece.

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/05/the-atheist-delusion-an-interview-with-prof-john-haught/

Regards

dj

You can find it here:

I don’t understand your message. Why do you post a link when you could simply try to answer some of my questions? If you read my posts on this thread, you will see that there are quite a few of them that remain unanswered. I am not interested about the relationship between religion and science, I don’t know who Mike Huckabee is and I am not interested in how “ignorant” the “new atheists” are.

I have read a lot about Christianity and atheism on my own. I am here to talk to real persons so I would rather you shared your insights with your own words.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t see where it is explained to Adam and Eve what death was. Neither God nor the serpent make themselves clear on that point.

When the serpent said to Eve that she would not die, it leaves one thinking that both she and Adam understood what dying meant (remember the betrayal had more to do with disbelieving God’s word over that of the serpent’s, so one has to ask how could they disbelieve something they knew nothing about?). I’ll explain, firstly, if Eve truly did not understand what was meant by dying, then why did she not say this to the serpent (it would be rather foolish to do something when it is unclear as to what the consequences will be). instead she willingly accepts what he says “you will surely not die”. You do not get the sense that she is naive about death but rather that she was tempted enough to believe that the serpent was telling the truth. Even the manner in which the serpent says what he does alludes to the fact that they understood death that is why he chose to emphasize they would not die (he lied about their being consequences in eating the fruit), i.e., he did not say something to the effect of “Oh dying is not bad dying is good” to make us understand that Adam and Eve were ignorant of the matter. I conclude that Adam and Eve were not in the dark about death, otherwise, God would not have propelled them out of Paradise. They were fully cognizant when they chose to sin against God.

 

[josie_L]

If God had made perfectly clear to Adam and Eve that He was the omnipotent creator of everything, do you really think that they would have dared to offend Him if they understood death? Would you?

Yes I can, in fact, the devil knew and understood who God was and rebelled against him too.

And if Adam and Eve were created in God’s image with the potential to sin in their hearts, wouldn’t that mean that God also has the potential to sin in His heart? Being omnipotent, He can do what He wants, including sin.

No, not at all. God is eternal and perfect whereas we are finite and imperfect, i.e., we are capable of sin because of free will and we have free will because that is the only means by which we can freely love God and therefore choose good, that is the essence of being human (we have the potential for choosing good or evil). God’s very nature/essence is love (i.e., goodness) as such he cannot sin for this would contradict his nature/essence. A God who does contradict himself would cease to be God, that is, being omnipotent does not entail being illogical/irrational, God is constant in His nature because He is (eternally) logical (in fact He is logic or the logos).

 

[josie_L]

I am sorry to overwhelm you. Maybe I should stop posting questions and review the ones I have posted precedently and that haven’t been answered.

Yes but even then I tend to notice your questions overlap, so for the sake of expediency I don’t answer them all.

I have read the NT and I am slowly working my way through the OT, which is quite a chocking experience. I am also in the process of reading the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, which I already am quite familiar with.

A word of advice, to understand the OT you need to be aware of the cultural and social milieu of the times, otherwise you will fail to see the necessity of some of God’s commands/instructions to the Jews. These were barbaric times and the Jews being the chosen people of God had to behave accordingly if they did not God’s plans for saving the world would be demolished (it was absolutely crucial that God reconcile us to Him through Christ). Remember, foremost that the Bible is an account of salvation history (the Word of God). It is imperative to keep this in mind so you can understand God’s motivations and the meaning behind scripture.

I registered to this forum because I read some unfounded assumptions about atheists on this thread and another one and I felt I needed to react. Then I got caught in this discussion. I will humbly accept to interrupt this discussion and leave the thread if I am causing any trouble to you or anyone else.

No, you are not causing trouble (as long as what you say is true). God bless, hope to hear from you today.

 

[Akheron]

I conclude that Adam and Eve were not in the dark about death, otherwise, God would not have propelled them out of Paradise. They were fully cognizant when they chose to sin against God.

Thank you for your explanation.

The question still stands however about how Adam and Eve could have understood that believing the serpent and disbelieving God was evil. To them it must have been a neutral action as the knowledge of evil hadn’t yet been revealed to them at the moment when they accepted the fruit, i.e. prior to eating it. They could not possibly have willfully chosen to do evil prior to knowing what evil was.

This point is a major stumbling block. If one cannot make sense of that, then one cannot make sense of any of the rest of the Bible, particularly of the story of Jesus.

But I can accept that I don’t understand.

Yes I can, in fact, the devil knew and understood who God was and rebelled against him too.

I have recently watched a very interesting documentary where some theologians, reverends and religious scholars talk about the history of the Devil. You can catch it here if you are interested: guba.com/watch/3000087824

No, not at all. God is eternal and perfect whereas we are finite and imperfect, i.e., we are capable of sin because of free will and we have free will because that is the only means by which we can freely love God and therefore choose good, that is the essence of being human (we have the potential for choosing good or evil). God’s very nature/essence is love (i.e., goodness) as such he cannot sin for this would contradict his nature/essence. A God who does contradict himself would cease to be God, that is, being omnipotent does not entail being illogical/irrational, God is constant in His nature because He is (eternally) logical (in fact He is logic or the logos).

Being truly omnipotent means that you can do anything, including contradicting yourself as it would then suffice that you reset the laws of logic to accommodate these contradictions.

I believe “Logos” is translated as “the Word” in the NT and I believe Pope Benedict has defined it as “creative reason”. It would seem that this definition allows some room for “bending” the rules. But I’ll leave it here.

I understand that it takes quite a lot of rationalizations to get the God of the Bible to fit into this world. I could offer an explanation for why this is, but you wouldn’t agree with me, so I’ll leave it here too.

Yes but even then I tend to notice your questions overlap, so for the sake of expediency I don’t answer them all.

I have insisted on some questions because I don’t seem to get a straightforward answer. As human beings we have to be aware of our tendency to avoid difficult questions.

A word of advice, to understand the OT you need to be aware of the cultural and social milieu of the times, otherwise you will fail to see the necessity of some of God’s commands/instructions to the Jews. These were barbaric times and the Jews being the chosen people of God had to behave accordingly if they did not God’s plans for saving the world would be demolished (it was absolutely crucial that God reconcile us to Him through Christ). Remember, foremost that the Bible is an account of salvation history (the Word of God). It is imperative to keep this in mind so you can understand God’s motivations and the meaning behind scripture.

I am very well aware of the need to understand the context in order to understand the OT. However it doesn’t change the fact that the God of the Bible is guilty of the murder of millions of innocents.

Thank you for your answers and your time.

 

[Akheron]

To all the Christians on this board and particularly to those of you who have been quick to dismiss me as ignorant of Christianity although I told you I had some knowledge of it, because you deemed my questions too simple and basic, let me share something with you:

I am 36 years old. I have spent 14 of these years in a Catholic school, from kindergarten to high school. My parents are both Catholics. Every single one of my relatives is a Catholic. I was baptized when I was 3 months old. I have been through the Sacraments of the First Holy Communion, the Solemn Communion (I was raised in France) and the Confirmation. I have been through the Sacraments of the Eucharist and the Confession of sins. I have sat in the Cathedral in my home town and the chapel at my school hours upon hours, listening to hours upon hours of homelies, reading the missal and singing hymns. I have recited Our Father and Hail Mary more times than I could count. I have read books on the lives of Saints, been on retreats and participated in night-long prayer sessions. I learned about death the day I saw the preserved body of Saint Bernadette Soubirous laying in its golden shrine in Nevers when I was 4 years old. I had nightmares for months.

So yes, I know quite a bit about Christianity and Catholicism.

I am an atheist because religion never made any sense to me. I have prayed but never got any answer. I have opened my eyes, my ears and my heart, but never seen, heard or felt anything divine. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much at peace with myself. There is no “void” inside me where you think God should be. I feel very fulfilled and happy and I don’t need any divine guidance to know how to respect myself and my fellow human beings, compassion is enough.

Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick at judging the one who comes to you with questions that you consider beneath you. Maybe you should try to see this person as someone who knows just as much or just as little as you do. Maybe you should try to welcome this person who seeks knowledge and seize this opportunity to seek knowledge *with *her/him and see what she/he could teach you. And if you cannot answer a question, don’t just ignore it, be humble and say ‘I don’t know’ and maybe you and she/he could seek the answer together.

Knowledge is good. That’s why I came here. I am very fond of knowledge. It is a wonderful endeavor to seek knowledge, especially knowledge that challenges your convictions. Trying to shed your assumptions and see the world through the eyes of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs is very enlightening. I recommend you try sometime. It could help you see yourselves in your fellow human beings, and see them in yourselves.

I have read quite a few threads on this “Non-Catholic” section and what I have seen is prejudice and arrogance. A lot of it. And it’s very saddening, especially considering that Christians consider themselves endowed with a special gift from God that makes them more compassionate than the rest of us. You don’t seem to understand that we are all the same and that the gift of goodness and understanding you think God has put in your heart when you accepted Him, this gift is also present in the hearts of everyone else, even if they don’t call it a gift of God, but a gift of nature. We are one mankind walking the Earth and it’s a shame that we fail at setting aside our prejudices and seeing ourselves as one.

I thank you for your time and retire from this forum.

I wish you all a peaceful day on Earth, everyday.

 

[josie_L]

To all the Christians on this board and particularly to those of you who have been quick to dismiss me as ignorant of Christianity although I told you I had some knowledge of it, because you deemed my questions too simple and basic, let me share something with you:

I am 36 years old. I have spent 14 of these years in a Catholic school, from kindergarten to high school. My parents are both Catholics. Every single one of my relatives is a Catholic. I was baptized when I was 3 months old. I have been through the Sacraments of the First Holy Communion, the Solemn Communion (I was raised in France) and the Confirmation. I have been through the Sacraments of the Eucharist and the Confession of sins. I have sat in the Cathedral in my home town and the chapel at my school hours upon hours, listening to hours upon hours of homelies, reading the missal and singing hymns. I have recited Our Father and Hail Mary more times than I could count. I have read books on the lives of Saints, been on retreats and participated in night-long prayer sessions. I learned about death the day I saw the preserved body of Saint Bernadette Soubirous laying in its golden shrine in Nevers when I was 4 years old. I had nightmares for months.

So yes, I know quite a bit about Christianity and Catholicism.

I am an atheist because religion never made any sense to me. I have prayed but never got any answer. I have opened my eyes, my ears and my heart, but never seen, heard or felt anything divine. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much at peace with myself. There is no “void” inside me where you think God should be. I feel very fulfilled and happy and I don’t need any divine guidance to know how to respect myself and my fellow human beings, compassion is enough.

Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick at judging the one who comes to you with questions that you consider beneath you. Maybe you should try to see this person as someone who knows just as much or just as little as you do. Maybe you should try to welcome this person who seeks knowledge and seize this opportunity to seek knowledge *with *her/him and see what she/he could teach you. And if you cannot answer a question, don’t just ignore it, be humble and say ‘I don’t know’ and maybe you and she/he could seek the answer together.

Knowledge is good. That’s why I came here. I am very fond of knowledge. It is a wonderful endeavor to seek knowledge, especially knowledge that challenges your convictions. Trying to shed your assumptions and see the world through the eyes of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs is very enlightening. I recommend you try sometime. It could help you see yourselves in your fellow human beings, and see them in yourselves.

I have read quite a few threads on this “Non-Catholic” section and what I have seen is prejudice and arrogance. A lot of it. And it’s very saddening, especially considering that Christians consider themselves endowed with a special gift from God that makes them more compassionate than the rest of us. You don’t seem to understand that we are all the same and that the gift of goodness and understanding you think God has put in your heart when you accepted Him, this gift is also present in the hearts of everyone else, even if they don’t call it a gift of God, but a gift of nature. We are one mankind walking the Earth and it’s a shame that we fail at setting aside our prejudices and seeing ourselves as one.

I thank you for your time and retire from this forum.

I wish you all a peaceful day on Earth, everyday.

I write this in the hope that one day you will come back:

1. According to the witness concerning the beginning which we find in the Scriptures and in Tradition, after the first (and also more complete) description in the Book of Genesis, sin in its original form is understood as “disobedience,” and this means simply and directly transgression of a prohibition laid down by God. But in the light of the whole context it is also obvious that the ultimate roots of this disobedience are to be sought in the whole real situation of man. Having been called into existence, the human being-man and woman-is a creature. The “image of God,” consisting in rationality and freedom, expresses the greatness and dignity of the human subject, who is a person. But this personal subject is also always a creature: in his existence and essence he depends on the Creator. According to the Book of Genesis, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” was to express and constantly remind man of the “limit” impassable for a created being. God’s prohibition is to be understood in this sense: the Creator forbids man and woman to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The words of the enticement, that is to say the temptation, as formulated in the sacred text, are an inducement to transgress this prohibition-that is to say, to go beyond that “limit”: “When you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God “like gods”], knowing good and evil.”

“Disobedience” means precisely going beyond that limit, which remains impassable to the will and the freedom of man as a created being. For God the Creator is the one definitive source of the moral order in the world created by him. Man cannot decide by himself what is good and what is evil-cannot “know good and evil, like God.” In the created world God indeed remains the first and sovereign source for deciding about good and evil, through the intimate truth of being, which is the reflection of the Word, the eternal Son, consubstantial with the Father. To man, created to the image of God, the Holy Spirit gives the gift of conscience, so that in this conscience the image may faithfully reflect its model, which is both Wisdom and eternal Law, the source of the moral order in man and in the world. “Disobedience,” as the original dimension of sin, means the rejection of this source, through man’s claim to become an independent and exclusive source for deciding about good and evil The Spirit who “searches the depths of God,” and who at the same time is for man the light of conscience and the source of the moral order, knows in all its fullness this dimension of the sin inscribed in the mystery of man’s beginning. And the Spirit does not cease “convincing the world of it” in connection with the Cross of Christ on Golgotha.

The encyclical can be found online at vatican.va/holy_father/jo…cantem_en.html

May God grace you with the truth.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

This is what I said in my school’s forum:

People have arguments from both sides as to why or why not God exists.

When I stop and think about all that is around me, and how everything works the way it does, I have a hard time believing it all happend by accident.

-Our plannet is in the perfect location for life to exist
-How complex the human body is, it is fascinating
-The spirituality, love, and intelligence of people
-All the new scientific discoveries that are being made.
I know that God is so much more complex then we can begin to imagine, and yet many people try to make him seem like he isn’t that way. Alternative ideas are created, and people will use those to say that God doesn’t exist, because of all they learn and have; they believe there is no necessary reason for God to exist anymore.

And the reason I chose to be a “Christian” is because of Jesus Christ. He came to the earth to show us how we need to live our lives for God, so that we are able to live with him after we die. Jesus showed compassion for people. He was on the earth teaching the poor no-names, not the wealthy & famous people. Or the ones who already thought they were going to heaven because they did"good" things.

Here was a response:

*“When I stop and think about all that is around me, and how everything works the way it does, I have a hard time believing it all happend by accident.” *
You’re excluding a third option: That the world around is is neither due to accident nor purpose. When you drop a pencil, does it fall to the ground by accident? No, it’s gravity. Is it falling on purpose? Of course not. Gravity is but one of many forces that shape our world without the need for purpose or accident.

“Our plannet is in the perfect location for life to exist”
Well, of course it is. That’s because the planet is the reason for our existence, not the other way around. Your leg isn’t perfectly sized for you to be however tall you are – it’s the opposite: you’re however tall because of your leg.

“How complex the human body is, it is fascinating”
Life wasn’t always this complex.

“The spirituality, love, and intelligence of people”
These are all explained by neuroscience – the study of brain chemistry.

*“All the new scientific discoveries that are being made.” *
What do our self-made accomplishments have to do with God?
**To this I answered:**It shows that we will never know as much as God does, he has infinite knowledge.

So, we can’t say that “Atheists” (people of no religious affiliation) don’t have their own answers; because they certainly do. And, they sound pretty intelligent too.

 

[rinnie]

To all the Christians on this board and particularly to those of you who have been quick to dismiss me as ignorant of Christianity although I told you I had some knowledge of it, because you deemed my questions too simple and basic, let me share something with you:

I am 36 years old. I have spent 14 of these years in a Catholic school, from kindergarten to high school. My parents are both Catholics. Every single one of my relatives is a Catholic. I was baptized when I was 3 months old. I have been through the Sacraments of the First Holy Communion, the Solemn Communion (I was raised in France) and the Confirmation. I have been through the Sacraments of the Eucharist and the Confession of sins. I have sat in the Cathedral in my home town and the chapel at my school hours upon hours, listening to hours upon hours of homelies, reading the missal and singing hymns. I have recited Our Father and Hail Mary more times than I could count. I have read books on the lives of Saints, been on retreats and participated in night-long prayer sessions. I learned about death the day I saw the preserved body of Saint Bernadette Soubirous laying in its golden shrine in Nevers when I was 4 years old. I had nightmares for months.

So yes, I know quite a bit about Christianity and Catholicism.

I am an atheist because religion never made any sense to me. I have prayed but never got any answer. I have opened my eyes, my ears and my heart, but never seen, heard or felt anything divine. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much at peace with myself. There is no “void” inside me where you think God should be. I feel very fulfilled and happy and I don’t need any divine guidance to know how to respect myself and my fellow human beings, compassion is enough.

Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick at judging the one who comes to you with questions that you consider beneath you. Maybe you should try to see this person as someone who knows just as much or just as little as you do. Maybe you should try to welcome this person who seeks knowledge and seize this opportunity to seek knowledge *with *her/him and see what she/he could teach you. And if you cannot answer a question, don’t just ignore it, be humble and say ‘I don’t know’ and maybe you and she/he could seek the answer together.

Knowledge is good. That’s why I came here. I am very fond of knowledge. It is a wonderful endeavor to seek knowledge, especially knowledge that challenges your convictions. Trying to shed your assumptions and see the world through the eyes of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs is very enlightening. I recommend you try sometime. It could help you see yourselves in your fellow human beings, and see them in yourselves.

I have read quite a few threads on this “Non-Catholic” section and what I have seen is prejudice and arrogance. A lot of it. And it’s very saddening, especially considering that Christians consider themselves endowed with a special gift from God that makes them more compassionate than the rest of us. You don’t seem to understand that we are all the same and that the gift of goodness and understanding you think God has put in your heart when you accepted Him, this gift is also present in the hearts of everyone else, even if they don’t call it a gift of God, but a gift of nature. We are one mankind walking the Earth and it’s a shame that we fail at setting aside our prejudices and seeing ourselves as one.

I thank you for your time and retire from this forum.

I wish you all a peaceful day on Earth, everyday.

Down Boy! You now claim that you were raised Catholic, What knowledge could you be seeking that you did not obtain in the years of school. You claim you seek answers but cannot find them. Lets start with question number one.

You ask why did God throw Adam and Eve out of the garden? Let me ask you, what did they teach you in the Catholic School. Why did they tell you Adam and Eve were thrown out, and why does the bible say they were thrown out?

You claim you know the sacraments, you have been taught them, Honestly what more do you need to learn. You have parents who felt the faith was so important they struggled to send you to school and have the faith taught to you. A teacher can only teach. You can lead a horse to water but that’s it. You can never learn anything if you reject God. Because you are beat before you ever start the game.

God gave you a choice, you seem to deny that. You seem to feel that he didn’t or something. Its simple you reject his teachings or you accept. You choose to reject. Its really simple. No one can say anything to change your mind, only you can.

 

[rinnie]

Getting back to the answer of Adam and Eve the reason they were thrown out of paradise had nothing to do with only disobeying God.

The whole thing had to do with the same reason we may be thrown out of paradise today. Its not only that we must obey God and his commandments its REPENTANCE.

Adam and Eve knew quite well not to eat the fruit. But the evil one talked them into it anyway. But instead of admitting their sin, what did they do. Well first Adam blamed Eve, then Eve blamed the devil, then to make things worse Adam even turned it around and lied again and blamed God. He said if you didn’t give me the woman it would have never happened.

All they had to do was repent. they just turned one lie into many, instead of admitting their sin. Sound familiar. How many times would it be easier to just admit, say we are sorry and repent. But we make it harder on ourself then we have to.

A wonder piece of scripture and I see no better place to put it then in this thread.

Mt 10:28 DO NOT FEAR THOSE WHO KILL THE BODY BUT CANNOT KILL THE SOUL; RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Fear is not a bad thing. If it keeps us to do good and not evil in this world even fear has its goodness.

But you see God as he is. shows us so much kindness he offered us the sacraments for our sins. If we repent we will not be thrown out of the garden at our death.

He died for that original sin so we could get in.

Repentance involves a change of the way we live and think. Suffering is not a evil any longer but a plan from God to teach us Love. We can enbrace suffering as NEEDED remedy for sin. Instead of being Gods revenge on Adam and Eve the curse was actually a CURE for their illness.

The same for us today. When we disobey Gods law and refuse his Love we cannot escape it, we just seal ourselves off from it, and in turn can’t enjoy it.

We only feel burned from it UNTIL we can open up and REPENT, THATS WHAT GODS WRATH IS MEANT FOR, TO LEAD US TO REPENTANCE.

Like any other sin in our life today, when we admit our sin, apologize and make amends what happens to us. Relief, the guilt is gone, we are forgiven by God.

So see Adam and Eve may have sinned, and had to do penance, but what happend in the long run, Even though they disobey God and suffered they still believed in him and may have gotten death, but by their repentance they also got the big reward the final reward ETERNAL LIFE.

Thats what the devil is about. Eternal death. He will get to anyone who will listen to give them eternal death, misery loves company kind of thing. The devil is pure evil, and loves to confuse good people. He will find a way if you let him. But if you repent, and turn to God before its too late you get Eternal Life.

So its all back to free will. You choose life or death. The devil choose death, eternal death in hell. He is real, just look around this world evil is everywhere. Some say he is winning.

But you look again and you will see life, eternal life in Jesus Christ. No one can say they do not know him. They can never say they have never seen a Church. But its your choice to step back inside, get on your knees and say I want Life Lord. I want eternal life, I want good, I want Love, I want you. THere are alot of good people also. And I believe more good then bad. Just they need to see that and accept God. When they do the world will become a better place.

Unfortunately many will not choose God. That is the reason the world is like it is. They do not fear God or death. They believe the lies of the devl. And like the devil he gives you all you need, empty promises, horrible lies. just enough to let you destroy yourself. I am sure you know many people like that in this world. They do indeed exist. Because evil and the devil do indeed exist. Don’t kid yourself. The devils best lie, is to convince people he does not exist. If he can do that, he can convince you God does not exist.

Don’t let him fool you like he did Adam and Eve. Choose God. He loves you and cares for you. The devil hates you, and loves to see you suffer.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

I am simply trying to understand the whole story, because your Scripture and your doctrine are not as straightforward and easily understandable as you seem to think when you look at them from the outside

This is true. And yet many Christian Churches give people the idea that it’s quite easy to to understand. I know it’s not, but I try my hardest to figure out what it’s saying.
Then, when I have trouble, I get together with other Christians, and we discuss it (Bible studies can be fun). Also, talking with a Biblical scholar or pastor can be helpful, because they have studied much of it; and know the history, and the time-period around Biblical times.

The Catholic has one interpritation, the protestant churches have another interpritation…on certain things. A lot of it they can agree on. At least some of the more important things, such as: by God’s graciousness he came to the earth in the form of a human to die for us, offering us a (single) way into Heaven.