But you must remember Jesus left us One Church. He left us the Apostles to keep that truth and lead us. there should not be many truths because there can be only one. You should not have to tru your hardest to figure out what its saying thats why Jesus left you the teachers of the faith to keep it and preserve it. That is written in the bible. To go by the early fathers of the Church or you will be misled from the truth. Read Tim. there is alot of it in there.This is true. And yet many Christian Churches give people the idea that it’s quite easy to to understand. I know it’s not, but I try my hardest to figure out what it’s saying.
Then, when I have trouble, I get together with other Christians, and we discuss it (Bible studies can be fun). Also, talking with a Biblical scholar or pastor can be helpful, because they have studied much of it; and know the history, and the time-period around Biblical times.
The Catholic has one interpritation, the protestant churches have another interpritation…on certain things. A lot of it they can agree on. At least some of the more important things, such as: by God’s graciousness he came to the earth in the form of a human to die for us, offering us a (single) way into Heaven.
Hi Ron, Yes God knows and has seen everything. But what people forget just because he knows and see everything he still leaves it up to us to make our choices,I have enjoyed reading this thread so far, some great points being passed back and forth. I do however feel there is a question that has not been fully answered yet (apologies to anyone who may have done and I have missed it). Is god omniscient and forsees everything that is yet to happen, or did he create the universe and then adam and eve, and from that point onwards, he left everything up to free will?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Hi Rinnie,Hi Ron, Yes God knows and has seen everything. But what people forget just because he knows and see everything he still leaves it up to us to make our choices,
Like Judas for instance they say if Judas didn’t betray Jesus he would have not died. That is not true. If you read the bible Jesus knew from the get go what Judas would do. But Judas still did what Judas wanted, Jesus just knew what he was going to do.
My Dad aways told me when we run to Jesus with a problem he just laughs. He knew we were comming and that problem is solved and he is working on our next one.
God is everything. Long before Adam and Eve. God is Omniscient for sure.
See here is the thing Adam and Eve had that choice to make. See what I mean. Even thought he knew what it would be ahead of time it was still theirs to make.Hi Rinnie,
Thanks for the reply. I understand (I think) what you are saying, but I am having trouble seeing why, if god knew what was going to happen, and no doubt has the power to stop it, why it had to happen in the first place?
He must have known the snake was up to no good, and what would happen as he was privy to all of this info beforehand. So why then act with such anger once the inevitable happened? If he already knew what would happen, how did adam and eve have any influence in what happened?
Oh and the reason he was angry is because they disobeyed him. The same reason our parents got angry at us. Because they hurt themself. They knew not to do it.Hi Rinnie,
Thanks for the reply. I understand (I think) what you are saying, but I am having trouble seeing why, if god knew what was going to happen, and no doubt has the power to stop it, why it had to happen in the first place?
He must have known the snake was up to no good, and what would happen as he was privy to all of this info beforehand. So why then act with such anger once the inevitable happened? If he already knew what would happen, how did adam and eve have any influence in what happened?
Not a problem my friend. But one more thought. You either do or will have kids someday. You also will teach them right from wrong. Then one day they will fly. You must let them go. And they will choose right from wrong also. Why? Because they will also have free will.Thanks for the thoughts Rinnie, but the prayers are not really going to change me in any way. I was just trying to understand the story in more detail.
I dont really see how the parents analogy works. If my son was going to a bad thing (and somehow I knew he would do it), and more importantly I had the ability to prevent him from doing it, then I would. Especially if this stopped him from hurting himself and everyone else.
Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut, I do appreciate it.
Rinnie,Not a problem my friend. But one more thought. You either do or will have kids someday. You also will teach them right from wrong. Then one day they will fly. You must let them go. And they will choose right from wrong also. Why? Because they will also have free will.
If they sin they will pay, and you will hurt worse than them. Then you will see how God fills when we sin.
But remember like God you can only tell them what and what not to do. If they disobey you they will pay for their wrong. But only then will they see what their wrong was and quit doing it. If you do it for them they will never learn.
If you agree with me, you will understand GOD. If not, your never will. I will still pray for you if you want me to. But if you don’t want me to I won’t either. Its up to you.
Which part of the Bible could you not teach your children (and please do not cite the mosaic law as we are not beholden to it as Christians)?Rinnie,
I am due to get married next June, so kids will not be far off after that. I will indeed be teaching my kids right from wrong, and let them make their own mistakes and live their own lives. I just do not feel that god has any impact on that.
If I were to use the bible for guidance, then it would be hypocritical for me to pick and choose which bits to live by. It is either all or nothing, and some of the teachings in the bible I do not see as suitable to teach my kids.
By all means pray for me if you like, if it makes you feel good for doing it, then I do not mind at all.
Hi Josie,Which part of the Bible could you not teach your children (and please do not cite the mosaic law as we are not beholden to it as Christians)?
I was hoping you would use the NT as I expect you understand that Christians are not to stone anyone and sacrifice their children (neither were the Jews for that matter for the story of Abraham and Isaac was meant to convey the level of trust and faith that Abraham had in God, and the foreshadowing of God’s sacrifice of Jesus his only Son for all of humanity). So again, what is wrong with Christian values as expressed through the NT?Hi Josie,
Well, there is quite alot I would not want to teach to my kids. I dont have my bible with me, but for example the views on homosexuality in Leviticus 20:? is not a very moral teaching, nor is some of the teachings in deuteronomy regarding putting family members to death for serving other gods. Then stories like that of abraham and his son are also not very moral in my opinion.
Whether or not you or christianity subscribe to this teaching is irrelevant to me, I personally find it morally corrupt teaching, and therefore would not want to be skimming over these sections just to read the ‘good’ parts.
Do you not believe that the OT is the word of god? Or do you just tip toe past the murder and repression and you are fine with the rest. If that is the case, then that is where we differ. Either the OT is the word of god or it is not. These are not seperate books, the NT is dependant on the OT. I would also not teach the threat of eternal pain and suffering for lack of obedience also.I was hoping you would use the NT as I expect you understand that Christians are not to stone anyone and sacrifice their children (neither were the Jews for that matter for the story of Abraham and Isaac was meant to convey the level of trust and faith that Abraham had in God, and the foreshadowing of God’s sacrifice of Jesus his only Son for all of humanity). So again, what is wrong with Christian values as expressed through the NT?
There are Scholars who admit that the 5 Books of Moses could very well be a fairy tale.Do you not believe that the OT is the word of god? Or do you just tip toe past the murder and repression and you are fine with the rest. If that is the case, then that is where we differ. Either the OT is the word of god or it is not. These are not seperate books, the NT is dependant on the OT. I would also not teach the threat of eternal pain and suffering for lack of obedience also.
What about Jephthah?I was hoping you would use the NT as I expect you understand that Christians are not to stone anyone and sacrifice their children (neither were the Jews for that matter for the story of Abraham and Isaac was meant to convey the level of trust and faith that Abraham had in God, and the foreshadowing of God’s sacrifice of Jesus his only Son for all of humanity). So again, what is wrong with Christian values as expressed through the NT?
All that may have applied in the OT was pertinent to the barbaric times that the Jews were living in (which for the sake of expediency I will not go into right now), so I ask again being that Jesus created a new Covenant for Christians, what is wrong with the moral values expressed in the NT by Christ and his apostles? Secondly, the threat of eternal suffering in Hell is not just for lack of obedience (all of us are disbedient at one point or another) it is the for the lack of repentance and hatred for God’s commandments that we are condemned.Do you not believe that the OT is the word of god? Or do you just tip toe past the murder and repression and you are fine with the rest. If that is the case, then that is where we differ. Either the OT is the word of god or it is not. These are not seperate books, the NT is dependant on the OT. I would also not teach the threat of eternal pain and suffering for lack of obedience also.
So we agree that we should ignore all that is written in the OT?All that may have applied in the OT was pertinent to the barbaric times that the Jews were living in (which for the sake of expediency I will not go into right now), so I ask again being that Jesus created a new Covenant for Christians, what is wrong with the moral values expressed in the NT by Christ and his apostles? Secondly, the threat of eternal suffering in Hell is not just for lack of obedience (all of us are disbedient at one point or another) it is the for the lack of repentance and hatred for God’s commandments that we are condemned.
I’m not saying that we should ignore the OT I’m saying we should put an emphasis on the NT as you were an ex-Catholic/Christian. Furthermore, the Bible is a book about salvation history, and in it you see God slowly revealing himself to his people through the many covenants he created, the last of which is the new covenant, that is why I ask what issues morally speaking do you have a problem with in the NT (as this is the last revelation from God)? Hell as I understand it is not a threat but a warning to people to repent and do good, just like the laws of the land are a warning to people to abide by society’s rules or suffer the consequences. Those who wind up in Hell are there because they chose to be there.So we agree that we should ignore all that is written in the OT?
And I do not think that any threat of eternal pain and gnashing of teeth is moral. We may disagree there, but that is fine, it is ok to disagree.
You can put emphasis on the NT if you like, but for me the OT cannot be ignored. If you were to treat the rest of the OT with the same judgement as you do with all the genocide and nasty parts, then that would be fine. But by reading through other threads on this site and others, and speaking to some catholics, it is quite clear that they do use the OT for guidance. Look at some of the things written about homosexuals as an excellent example-and this is all justified becasue of what is written in the OT.I’m not saying that we should ignore the OT I’m saying we should put an emphasis on the NT as you were an ex-Catholic/Christian. Furthermore, the Bible is a book about salvation history, and in it you see God slowly revealing himself to his people through the many covenants he created, the last of which is the new covenant, that is why I ask what issues morally speaking do you have a problem with in the NT (as this is the last revelation from God)? Hell as I understand it is not a threat but a warning to people to repent and do good, just like the laws of the land are a warning to people to abide by society’s rules or suffer the consequences. Those who wind up in Hell are there because they chose to be there.
This is one of the most obtuse positions to be held by christains. ******NOT THAT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THIS.Those who wind up in Hell are there because they chose to be there.