Atheism

[AnlytcPhil]

If someone went to the moon and ONLY told me that the ground is like a powder, but didn’t show any evidence, and I believed it. And later, evidence was shown to me that the ground really is a powder. When did I believe the Truth? Before or after I was shown proof?

If I deemed them to be trustworthy, and they told me directly, I’d believe them before. But if they only told me that they read it in an old book that spoke of a lot of supernatural events that they trusted to be true, I wouldn’t be able to believe it. I act as though it’s true. I’m an active Methodist, go to church every Sunday, and sing in the choir. I never tell anybody there that I am unable to believe it. I can tell you because you can’t tell on me.

 

[rcwitness]

If I deemed them to be trustworthy, and they told me directly, I’d believe them before. But if they only told me that they read it in an old book that spoke of a lot of supernatural events that they trusted to be true, I wouldn’t be able to believe it. I act as though it’s true. I’m an active Methodist, go to church every Sunday, and sing in the choir. I never tell anybody there that I am unable to believe it. I can tell you because you can’t tell on me.

Ah, I see. I actually asked “when did I believe the Truth?” But that’s ok. My point is that believing without “proof” doesn’t mean it’s not true, anymore than it means it is true.

Do you receive communion? I would respect your position if you refrained from Communion. But if you do, then it’s wrongly deceptive.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Ah, I see. I actually asked “when did I believe the Truth?” But that’s ok. My point is that believing without “proof” doesn’t mean it’s not true, anymore than it means it is true.

Do you receive communion? I would respect your position if you refrained from Communion. But if you do, then it’s wrongly deceptive.

Why shouldn’t I take communion? I label myself a Christian because I believe in the teachings of Christ – and it doesn’t matter that you don’t label me a Christian. I consider myself just as much of a Christian as you are. I’m just honest enough to admit that nobody, not even you, can possibly believe what you claim to believe. You can’t possibly believe the supernatural stories in the Bible. Like Satan disguised as a snake talking Eve into eating an apple or fruit, and that caused men to all be born in sin. I certainly don’t believe that any Christians believe that, nor that Noah put all animals on board. Now I do believe that you and most Christians are deluded that you believe that and all the other, but I cannot believe that you or anybody really believes it and knows it to be true. So again, why shouldn’t I take communion? I’m honoring Jesus like they are and you are when you take it. I’m just like you or anybody else. The only difference is that I don’t have the illusion that I am able to believe something when there is no way a person can really know with absolute certainty that it is true. The reason I stay in the closet is for fear my friends will turn on me and say mean things like “You hate God!”, “You deliberately chose not to believe!” “Your pride is going to cause you to go to hell”. I’d rather hear that from you than from my good church friends. If they found out they would believe that I chose to believe – that I could believe if I wanted to, but that I chose not to". Nothing could be farther than the truth than that anybody could really choose belief. I can only believe that it is possible to have the illusion of belief of certainty of what you claim to believe. Can you believe that I didn’t choose to doubt all this stuff? I don’t think most Christians can. They believe that people can choose belief. Actually that’s what I disbelieve in – the ability to choose belief. However I do believe in the illusion of choosing to believe and believing that you believe in the certainty of something.

 

[Russell_SA]

I promise to never claim “a proof” of things that pertain to faith. Unless God chooses to display a miraculous “proof” and manifestation of Himself to you, outside the evidence of His goodness, wisdom, and knowledge which through the Church has been made known.

To your point that the god does not have to show proof of its existence. So could anyone feel justified in believing in something that is indistinguishable from anything they can imagine aka just plain make up? That seems to be the exact example of the idea of faith. The hope that something is true when there is no justifiable reason to believe this.

He has desired that His children believe on account of these things, not through the carnal senses. It isn’t the carnal senses that overcomes sin, or compels the love of one another, or gives life. Why should He use them to call His own?

This sounds like this god does not understand how humans work. We are always skeptical of the guy at school that claims to have a hot girlfriend in the next town over that no one ever runs into. Which is always the default point to take until she shows up. Then if she offers to buy the first round, we’ll have proof that yes she’s pretty cool.

If you were to receive a manifestation of Himself, then much more would be required of you. St Paul was given such, and it was all the more necessary for him to suffer much, for the sake of the Church and those who would believe through his trials and suffering.
another, or gives life. Why should He use them to call His own?

St Thomas demanded to see and touch, in order to believe.

John 20
Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

So asking for the level of evidence of it’s existence that I would use to convince anyone that trees exist would require your deity to then punish me brutally? Sounds like a worship of the biggest bully and might makes right type of religion you are in.

Jesus seems to be asking Thomas here if he is worshiping because Thomas knows without a doubt that this deity exists and as such has power over the betterment of Thomas’ future. And then pointing out that it is better for people to worship Jesus even though they do not know that he exists or not because the message and purpose of what Jesus wanted people to live by was what is important.

So Thomas didn’t find any convincing arguments in Jesus’ message for why what Jesus said was any more significant than anyone else that was trying to teach the same message. Jesus was saying do this because I’m magical, not because it’s the right thing to do and let me convince you through debate and dialog. No I’m going to by pass teaching people how to think, but rather dazzle them with magic so that they will want to be on my good side since we don’t have a cure for poverty, disease, or wearing white socks with black shoes.

Obviously the later is better because it is cowardly to worship a dictator out of fear or for rewards and gifts. It is better to follow an ethical standard regardless of threats and promises.

The religious’ message, as I’ve experienced, is that the main purpose is to appease the dictator out of fear of hell and the promise of all their desires fulfilled. The process for ethical living comes from their society forcing them to behave in an ethical way until they die and go off to their deity. If the doctrines taught people how to think instead of what to think, we would be better off now.

It is better NOT to be shown, in my opinion.
Peace to you.

This is fine for you, but not necessarily enough for everyone else. Your deity should know this and adjust his conversation with us accordingly. It’s hard to have a conversation with no one on the other end of the line to talk to.

 

[rcwitness]

Why shouldn’t I take communion? I label myself a Christian because I believe in the teachings of Christ

Do you really?

– and it doesn’t matter that you don’t label me a Christian.

No it doesnt. But what makes you, or anyone a Christian?

I consider myself just as much of a Christian as you are.

Then why is that not your religion?

I’m just honest enough to admit that nobody, not even you, can possibly believe what you claim to believe.

Well that’s quite presumptuous of you, no?

You can’t possibly believe the supernatural stories in the Bible. Like Satan disguised as a snake talking Eve into eating an apple or fruit, and that caused men to all be born in sin.

I think this would deserve it’s own thread, and my specific attention.

I certainly don’t believe that any Christians believe that, nor that Noah put all animals on board. Now I do believe that you and most Christians are deluded that you believe that and all the other, but I cannot believe that you or anybody really believes it and knows it to be true.

I think you are assuming what everyone believes, as though it’s all the same, for one, and that it is what you think it must mean. Again, I strongly suggest that you ask some of these questions about what and how others believe, in their own thread.

So again, why shouldn’t I take communion?

Why shouldn’t you be honest with your faith Community? Do you profess what they believe? If not, then why partake of their table?

I’m honoring Jesus like they are and you are when you take it. I’m just like you or anybody else. The only difference is that I don’t have the illusion that I am able to believe something when there is no way a person can really know with absolute certainty that it is true.

You keep asserting that it’s impossible for anyone to believe certain Christian beliefs. How do you know this? Belief doesn’t need to rely on proof.

The reason I stay in the closet is for fear my friends will turn on me and say mean things like “You hate God!”, “You deliberately chose not to believe!” “Your pride is going to cause you to go to hell”. I’d rather hear that from you than from my good church friends.

You know the Apostles and Saints, and believers all over the world suffer these things for what they believe?

If they found out they would believe that I chose to believe – that I could believe if I wanted to, but that I chose not to". Nothing could be farther than the truth than that anybody could really choose belief. I can only believe that it is possible to have the illusion of belief of certainty of what you claim to believe. Can you believe that I didn’t choose to doubt all this stuff? I don’t think most Christians can. They believe that people can choose belief. Actually that’s what I disbelieve in – the ability to choose belief. However I do believe in the illusion of choosing to believe and believing that you believe in the certainty of something.

You don’t need to have “perfect belief” without a shadow of a doubt to be Christian. This is true. Only Jesus had perfect belief! But some things are necessary, like the Nicene Creed.

Are you familiar with the father of the boy who Jesus exorcized, recorded in Mark 9?

Mark 9
And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.”*And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth.**And Jesus asked his father, “How long has he had this?” And he said, “From childhood.*And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us.”**And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”*And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.”**And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, “He is dead.”**But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.*And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”**And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer and fasting.”
No one has perfect belief. Jesus fulfills our lack of belief, and strengthens our unbelief. Ask Him in your prayers.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

May I suggest an excellent book, “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist”.

Thanks but I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist either.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

To: rcwitness

Do I really believe in the moral teachings of Jesus? Certainly. Love others as thyself. Turn the other cheek. Certainly. What makes me a Christian? To be labeled as “___ian” (fill in the blank with a name), you believe in the teachings of ___ (fill in the blank with the same name). Christianity is my religion. The only religion I have.

I’m asserting that it’s impossible to believe anything by choosing to. Belief relies on knowing reason to believe that the source is true. You say belief doesn’t rely on proof. But without a good reason to believe it, you can only be agnostic. Even a burning desire for something to be true, is not a reason to believe it.

I’ll ask you this. Can you choose to believe in mermaids? If so, I’d be willing to pay you a good sum of money if you would choose to believe in mermaids or unicorns only temporarily and actually prove that you believe in them by taking a polygraph. If you could pass a polygraph then I’d pay you and even pay for the polygraph. Then you could stop believing in them. But if you failed the polygraph then you’d have to pay me that sum and pay for the polygraph. Well, I’m not really going to make that bet with you. But if somebody did, do you actually believe that you could choose to believe in mermaids temporarily – just long enough to take a polygraph? Immediately after getting paid you could stop believing in them. I can’t believe you could do that.

You say “You don’t need to have ‘perfect belief’ without the shadow of a doubt, to be a Christian”. I suppose by ‘perfect belief’ that you mean like our perfect belief that Trump was elected president (to my dismay!), not like our belief that some other planets have intelligent life. I am not able to believe in anything labeled “exorcism”. I think somebody might go through some psychological state and have a change of heart and behavior, and you can label that “exorcism”. But the stuff that Benny Hinn does I can only believe is phony. But maybe he has the illusion that what he’s doing is on the up and up. But I’m unable to believe in what he does.

 

[rcwitness]

To: rcwitness

Do I really believe in the moral teachings of Jesus? Certainly. Love others as thyself. Turn the other cheek. Certainly. What makes me a Christian? To be labeled as “___ian” (fill in the blank with a name), you believe in the teachings of ___ (fill in the blank with the same name). Christianity is my religion. The only religion I have.

You are selecting certain teachings from Jesus that are agreeable with you. That doesn’t make you a Christian. That means you are your own god, which likes some things that Jesus taught. You ultimately determine the tenants of your own religion. And you define your own beliefs and doctrines. Being a Christian means to accept the Gospel. Do you believe the Gospel expressed in the Nicene Creed?

I’ll ask you this. Can you choose to believe in mermaids?

Yes, of course…

If so, I’d be willing to pay you a good sum of money if you would choose to believe in mermaids or unicorns only temporarily and actually prove that you believe in them by taking a polygraph. If you could pass a polygraph then I’d pay you and even pay for the polygraph. Then you could stop believing in them. But if you failed the polygraph then you’d have to pay me that sum and pay for the polygraph. Well, I’m not really going to make that bet with you. But if somebody did, do you actually believe that you could choose to believe in mermaids temporarily – just long enough to take a polygraph? Immediately after getting paid you could stop believing in them. I can’t believe you could do that.

You know what? I don’t have a lot of experience discussing with atheists, which you seem to be. But comparing the Son of God who was slain for the sins of the world to belief in a mythical creature is extremely ignorant. But I am a fool, and I have been forgiven by Him, and I must serve those who might believe in Him.

You say “You don’t need to have ‘perfect belief’ without the shadow of a doubt, to be a Christian”. I suppose by ‘perfect belief’ that you mean like our perfect belief that Trump was elected president (to my dismay!), not like our belief that some other planets have intelligent life.

No, not that believe at all. You cannot be farther from understanding Godly belief at all. Do you think there is some sort of Spiritual sight involved in knowing the results of an election? That is simply gathering data and accepting it. Belief in God means understanding that God is Spirit.

I am not able to believe in anything labeled “exorcism”. I think somebody might go through some psychological state and have a change of heart and behavior, and you can label that “exorcism”. But the stuff that Benny Hinn does I can only believe is phony. But maybe he has the illusion that what he’s doing is on the up and up. But I’m unable to believe in what he does.

This is just an example of one of the things you reject in the faith you try to claim for yourself.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

But comparing the Son of God who was slain for the sins of the world to belief in a mythical creature is extremely ignorant.<<<

I resent that! You’re accusing me of something I DID NOT SAY! So I demand that you take it back! I was talking about choosing belief. Now you’re getting me angry falsely accusing me like that!!!

 

[rcwitness]

But comparing the Son of God who was slain for the sins of the world to belief in a mythical creature is extremely ignorant.<<<

It seems that whenever I have a discussion with atheists, they end up likening the belief in Jesus, as the Son of God, with some mythical creature. It’s profoundly ignorant. If you think there is a profound difference in those beliefs, please clarify.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

It seems that whenever I have a discussion with atheists, they end up likening the belief in Jesus, as the Son of God, with some mythical creature. It’s profoundly ignorant. If you think there is a profound difference in those beliefs, please clarify.

First of all, I am not an atheist. I would never say “God does not exist”. No indeed, believing in a caring, loving person like Jesus, who was cruelly crucified, is not at all like believing in mermaids and fairies. I believe Jesus probably lived, but I also suspect that the people who wrote the Bible may have improvised the truth a bit.

 

[rcwitness]

First of all, I am not an atheist. I would never say “God does not exist”. No indeed, believing in a caring, loving person like Jesus, who was cruelly crucified, is not at all like believing in mermaids and fairies. I believe Jesus probably lived, but I also suspect that the people who wrote the Bible may have improvised the truth a bit.

Ok, then you shouldn’t be offended, because my comment was on the condition that you were likening belief that Jesus was the Son of God, died and rose from the dead, to belief in mythical creatures, like mermaids, bigfoot, lockness, etc.

I will ask one more time… Do you believe in the Nicene Creed?

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Ok, then you shouldn’t be offended, because my comment was on the condition that you were likening belief that Jesus was the Son of God, died and rose from the dead, to belief in mythical creatures, like mermaids, bigfoot, lockness, etc.

I will ask one more time… Do you believe in the Nicene Creed?

We say both the Apostle’s and the Nicene Creed, and others in the United Methodist Church. I won’t say they’re false. I just don’t know of any reason to believe that they are necessarily true.

 

[rcwitness]

We say both the Apostle’s and the Nicene Creed, and others in the United Methodist Church. I won’t say they’re false. I just don’t know of any reason to believe that they are necessarily true.

Are you aware that faith is the reason we believe these things?

 

[AnlytcPhil]

Are you aware that faith is the reason we believe these things?

Of course, and like I’ve said before, I only know how to understand faith as wishing and hoping real hard. It’s not really believing.

 

[rcwitness]

Of course, and like I’ve said before, I only know how to understand faith as wishing and hoping real hard. It’s not really believing.

You have different concepts of Christian virtues than the Church. Trust is part of having faith.

If you don’t have faith, you should not call yourself Christian. It’s contrary to the name.

 

[rcwitness]

You believe in something* because o*f faith?

Or, you have faith in something and believe in it because it’s real?

.

Faith is the reason I am able to see God. I don’t see Him with the carnal senses, but the spiritual sense of faith. It is like belief. I believe in God, because I rely on faith and also have hope. Without faith, I could not believe in God.

Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.

I don’t have faith in something, but someone.

 

[rcwitness]

It might be an incredible sign of that, yes. But that still doesn’t mean a God or many Gods exist.

It’s just one of many natural wonders that reasonably supports a Creator.

 

[rcwitness]

“Belief” really is not the right word to use regarding atheists.

It’s not a belief…is more a dis-belief.

A person believes IN something. They don’t believe in the non-existence or negation of it; they just don’t believe it.

Do you believe in reincarnation? If not, then we wouldn’t really say you believe reincarnation doesn’t exist…we’d just say you don’t believe in it.

Either way, if one does not believe in the Creator, they must believe in an alternative origin of us and our universe, which denies the Creator.

 

[AnlytcPhil]

You believe in something* because o*f faith?

Or, you have faith in something and believe in it because it’s real?

.

You can choose all you want for something to be true, but choosing for something to be true will never make it true. That’s the cold hard fact of reality. People are unable to truly believe in anything by choosing for it to be true. So what they do is develop an illusion of belief and call it ‘belief’. The best anybody can be is agnostic. You simply cannot know that the Bible is 100% true. You can at best have the illusion that you believe it is. But that’s not really believing. Somebody on here recently said we can’t have perfect belief, as only Jesus had that. I can only see that as labeling the illusion of belief ‘imperfect belief’. I’m quite sure that they would label the belief that Trump got elected president as “perfect belief”. People fool themselves with words like that.