Atheist Abortion Debate

[Jennifer123]

atheos_sum:

If a child does not have a brain–*a brain!–*i would hardly label this “subjective” in any way, shape, or form. A child cannot live without a brain, in case you didn’t know.

If this is subjective, then every medical decision is subjective. When someone i knew died in a car accident, their heart was still beating, but his brain had long ceased to function. in fact, he was dead. It was “pointless” or “an unworthy pursuit” to keep him in the hospital, hooked up to life-support. If you or the pope were standing there and telling us that taking him off life support was a “subjective” decision, someone would have probably laughed in your face.

Look, we are talking in generalities or at least I am. Certainly in a real life situation you’d have to assess the situation then. I’m not sure what the moral obligations would be for each specific case, I am not a theologian nor qualified to determine what those moral choices should be. I would have to seek an opinion based on Church teaching from someone qualified or if I was incapacitated, my family would have to do that.

What I’m arguing against is the abortive mentality that either states it’s good in all situations or it’s not good for me personally but I can’t tell others not to abort.

I am sorry you have known someone who faced these end of life issues and experienced a tragic death. Neither I or pope Benedict want to force morality on anyone, but what we all are trying to do is inform people about the true nature of humanity so we can live lives free from death, physical and spiritual. The Church doesn’t teach that removal of all life support per say is an evil act, so your assumption kind of creates a straw man argument.

 

[atheos_sum]

Jennifer123:

Look, we are talking in generalities or at least I am. Certainly in a real life situation you’d have to assess the situation then. I’m not sure what the moral obligations would be for each specific case, I am not a theologian nor qualified to determine what those moral choices should be. I would have to seek an opinion based on Church teaching from someone qualified or if I was incapacitated, my family would have to do that.

What I’m arguing against is the abortive mentality that either states it’s good in all situations or it’s not good for me personally but I can’t tell others not to abort.

I don’t say abortion is good in all situations. This is not my position, you know that–and we certainly are justified in telling others they cannot abort if it is unjustified.

Jennifer123:

I am sorry you have known someone who faced these end of life issues and experienced a tragic death. Neither I or pope Benedict want to force morality on anyone, but what we all are trying to do is inform people about the true nature of humanity so we can live lives free from death, physical and spiritual. The Church doesn’t teach that removal of all life support per say is an evil act, so your assumption kind of creates a straw man argument.

that wasn’t my argument, it was an analogy. You said it was subjective to think we should abort a brainless baby. I’m saying: what’s the difference between that and someone whose brain ceased to function and is technically dead?

so what does the church say about children being born brainless?

 

[Jennifer123]

atheos_sum:

So it would seem you’d rather have more abortions in the future, if that’s what it takes to save children from current abortions. thus you are advocating more abortions and i’m advocating fewer. seems like the utilitarian holds the true prolife position.

Also, i’ve grown up in foster homes etc. so i know what it is like for these children. but obviously, since abortion is legal, our parents decided they would rather have a baby under the time and circumstances of our birth. And that’s what really counts: is the mother prepared or does she feel she’s prepared to have a child?

if you force unprepared mothers, raped mothers etc to have children, then there will be an enormous wave of children entering group homes, foster care etc. unfortunately, most children are not as fortunate as i am to have discovered their will to power, learned to take control of their lives, discovered that they don’t have to become a statistic and that they can make something of themselves.

What can I say? I most certainly am not advocating more abortions and I’m not even sure how you can so confidently think you’ve taken the “true” pro-life position.

Unfortunately it seems that you’ve experienced the sad fact that people don’t always have good beginnings in life and that life can be full of suffering and hardship. But it does seem you are indeed making a good life for yourself and that is so admirable. God never said our lives would be easy or that we would never experience suffering. But He does promise our lives will always have meaning. We can’t allow the wholesale slaughter of innocent life just because suffering exists. Just as you’re making a good and admirable life for yourself, others should be given that chance.

You’ve mentioned that unprepared mothers will have children who are destined for suffering, arguing that they should be given the opportunity to abort their children. I don’t mean to sound crass and I hope you take this in the manner intended, but with your experience, are you sorry your mother gave you a chance at life? Do you think you would have been better off aborted? I know that isn’t true and I hope you don’t either, but if everyone advocated your position, you may not be here today. Wouldn’t that be a loss to the world?

God bless and take care. I’m glad you are here, even if it’s only to show us “intolerant” pro-lifers the truth!

 

[Jennifer123]

atheos_sum:

I don’t say abortion is good in all situations. This is not my position, you know that–and we certainly are justified in telling others they cannot abort if it is unjustified.

True, sorry I do know that from other posts here on this thread. I didn’t mean to mislead others BUT I wanted to point out that I’m not necessarily qualified to speak about specific cases. I don’t necessarily know about the condition you speak of, but I wanted to be careful and not fall into a trap where the protection of handicapped life is null because of one specific case of which we don’t have official Church teaching.

I found this link about anencephalic infants on the EWTN site:
ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/bcdanen2.htm

" The Church recognizes anencephalic infants as truly human and worthy of the unconditional respect and reverence befitting every person. The 1987 Vatican Instruction On Respect for Human Life in Its Origin and on the Dignity of Procreation affirms this point: “The human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception; and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized, among which in the first place is the inviolable right of every human being to life” (n. I:1)."

It describes WHY the Church states this and then goes on to discuss moral and pastoral care in this situation.

that wasn’t my argument, it was an analogy. You said it was subjective to think we should abort a brainless baby. I’m saying: what’s the difference between that and someone whose brain ceased to function and is technically dead?

so what does the church say about children being born brainless?

I think it’s subjective to abort based on our own perceptions about quality of life issues for which we personally have no experience. I think it’s subjective to abort based on what we perceive is a person’s worth. I argue that our worth is not based on human novelty but on our inherent dignity given to us by our Creator. I think I made that clear in the posts but if I didn’t I’m sorry and am saying it now.

 

[atheos_sum]

Jennifer123:

What can I say? I most certainly am not advocating more abortions and I’m not even sure how you can so confidently think you’ve taken the “true” pro-life position.

Unfortunately it seems that you’ve experienced the sad fact that people don’t always have good beginnings in life and that life can be full of suffering and hardship. But it does seem you are indeed making a good life for yourself and that is so admirable. God never said our lives would be easy or that we would never experience suffering. But He does promise our lives will always have meaning. We can’t allow the wholesale slaughter of innocent life just because suffering exists. Just as you’re making a good and admirable life for yourself, others should be given that chance.

You’ve mentioned that unprepared mothers will have children who are destined for suffering, arguing that they should be given the opportunity to abort their children. I don’t mean to sound crass and I hope you take this in the manner intended, but with your experience, are you sorry your mother gave you a chance at life? Do you think you would have been better off aborted? I know that isn’t true and I hope you don’t either, but if everyone advocated your position, you may not be here today. Wouldn’t that be a loss to the world?

God bless and take care. I’m glad you are here, even if it’s only to show us “intolerant” pro-lifers the truth!

this is getting very personal.

I would have been born regardless. there were complications after my birth, not prior, that caused the state to intervene. so my mother wasn’t considering (i dont think) an abortion before these complications.

and there’s no sense in asking if “I” would have been better off had i been aborted, because of course there would be no “I” to be better off. though i know what you mean, and i have to say, from the perspective of social welfare, no, because i think i benefit society. however, if i was aborted due to some utilitiarian calculation, “I” would not have resented it–i think resenting it would be selfish.

not everyone realizes their potential, which is unfortunate.

we won’t know for sure unless we ban abortion, but my hunch is that the mother who was forced to have a child she wasn’t prepared to have will neglect the child. (And this happened to me anyway.) and she might grow to resent the child as well. But, you may say, the child may go to a foster home. But this is problematic as well.

This is anecdotal, but i don’t believe my experience is unrepresentative. Every foster home/group home i’ve lived in wasn’t prepared to care for children. Some were abusive, some were neglectful, some manipulative. All of them were religious. Having a foster child in your home is also seen as something like a crusade as well. You want this child to become religious. Also, the parents say things like “you should be glad you even have a home” whenever it’s convenient for them. Many of the kids feel worthless, and there is a lot of psychological damage done. And most of the wives often talk their husbands into this, thus the husband resents the children. The mother in the last family i lived with downplayed my education and tried to prevent me from excelling in school. This is absurd, and most who go through this aren’t any better off. The cycle of destructive lifestyles thus continues.

To summarize, children aren’t any better off necessarily if they are adopted or enter some state home.

 

[atheos_sum]

Jennifer123:

I think it’s subjective to abort based on our own perceptions about quality of life issues for which we personally have no experience. I think it’s subjective to abort based on what we perceive is a person’s worth. I argue that our worth is not based on human novelty but on our inherent dignity given to us by our Creator. I think I made that clear in the posts but if I didn’t I’m sorry and am saying it now.

How is this subjective?

How *dead *does a fetus have to be before you consider any decision to abort objective?

 

[Jennifer123]

atheos_sum:

How is this subjective?

How *dead *does a fetus have to be before you consider any decision to abort objective?

I’m not sure this is getting anywhere nor does it seem to be productive. I think we should just let it lie and settle for a while.

I appreciate you posting on your personal experiences. I hope you don’t think I was fishing for that information, I was just going off on the examples you used to state that life is worth living. I’m sorry you have had it rough, I truly am grateful you are here today in life and on this board. While I haven’t known of what you specifically speak, I too have been touched by tragedy. I have a sibling who is the product of a rape, and like many others on this board there are other experiences by myself and my family that also speak of this struggle against sin.

My parting comment though is just that rather than letting these experiences turn us inward, our belief allows us to turn outward. Thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ we can give these sufferings to Him and allow them to help others. It is unfair that children have to suffer so much when they are so innocent but we live in a fallen world with fallen members as you have seen. I don’t want to sound pollyanna-ish but life is still mysterious, beautiful and precious and deserves to be protected.

God Bless you truly and please stick around here on the forums. Good luck on your studies.

 

[atheos_sum]

I appreciate your comments and I apologize if at times my comments were sarcastic or indifferent. I really wish there were an obvious solution to this problem.

 

[caroljm36]

If you can’t show the operation on Discovery Health, then it’s wrong…next question?

 

[theTaxCollector]

Much of the debate above seems to center around whether the right to life is intrinsic or extrinsic to our human nature.

The founding fathers of the USA wrote that it is obviously intrinsic. The Catholic Church believes this also. If this is not true, then we would have to say that the right to life is extrinsic (i.e it depends on external circumstances.)

Following this line of reasoning, however, eliminates all human rights. We become a society which selectively and arbitrarily values human beings.

This is the real tragedy of allowing abortion at all, in any circumstance. It offends (or should offend) our sense of justice, because it always the strong taking advantage of the weak.

Peace.

 

[Jennifer123]

theTaxCollector:

Much of the debate above seems to center around whether the right to life is intrinsic or extrinsic to our human nature.

The founding fathers of the USA wrote that it is obviously intrinsic. The Catholic Church believes this also. If this is not true, then we would have to say that the right to life is extrinsic (i.e it depends on external circumstances.)

Following this line of reasoning, however, eliminates all human rights. We become a society which selectively and arbitrarily values human beings.

This is the real tragedy of allowing abortion at all, in any circumstance. It offends (or should offend) our sense of justice, because it always the strong taking advantage of the weak.

Peace.

Well said, thank you.