Atheist argument: Christian stories existed before the time of Jesus

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one of the classic objects to religion is that atheist say that the stories of Jesus Mary the virgin along with other things come from the anicent religions like the Egyptians Babylonians have stories that are a part of our christian religion. The athesist think that becuase we “steal” those stories or we have the same stories i can’t possibly be true meaning all religion is not true meaning there is no good.

what do you think is a good way to reject this argument?

I think you explain the connections as ways God reveled himself through history.

If some ancient religion had a myth that a guy who was divine in nature, came to teach in the world, then sacrificed himself for a group of people.

or a story along the lines of that.

Instead of the story of Jesus being a spin off of this Myth, the Myth is a prophecy of what is to come in Jesus, just like many of the OT stories.

these stories will appear in history becuase God who is a perfect being who created the universe has a pattern in his creation meaning that stories will appear multiple times in history even if just as myths.

any problems with my argument?
 
one of the classic objects to religion is that atheist say that the stories of Jesus Mary the virgin along with other things come from the anicent religions like the Egyptians Babylonians have stories that are a part of our christian religion. The athesist think that becuase we “steal” those stories or we have the same stories i can’t possibly be true meaning all religion is not true meaning there is no good.

what do you think is a good way to reject this argument?

I think you explain the connections as ways God reveled himself through history.

If some ancient religion had a myth that a guy who was divine in nature, came to teach in the world, then sacrificed himself for a group of people.

or a story along the lines of that.

Instead of the story of Jesus being a spin off of this Myth, the Myth is a prophecy of what is to come in Jesus, just like many of the OT stories.

these stories will appear in history becuase God who is a perfect being who created the universe has a pattern in his creation meaning that stories will appear multiple times in history even if just as myths.

any problems with my argument?
The problem is that they are making the wrong conclusion regarding their information. And, they’re starting out with a desired outcome and, like Protestantism is wont to do, twisting it to mean what they want it to mean.

That being said, remember that even before Jesus became man, His truth was imprinted on the heart of every man. Before Him, man had a “dim intimation” and expression of this truth. That’s why pagans invented gods. They knew, in their hearts, that there was a higher Being, etc. They just couldn’t define Him well yet. They were struggling. Man was developing to the point to where God would reveal Himself, first to the Jews, eventually leading up to Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. We are a work in process. 🙂
 
one of the classic objects to religion is that atheist say that the stories of Jesus Mary the virgin along with other things come from the anicent religions like the Egyptians Babylonians have stories that are a part of our christian religion. The athesist think that becuase we “steal” those stories or we have the same stories i can’t possibly be true meaning all religion is not true meaning there is no good.

what do you think is a good way to reject this argument?

I think you explain the connections as ways God reveled himself through history.

If some ancient religion had a myth that a guy who was divine in nature, came to teach in the world, then sacrificed himself for a group of people.

or a story along the lines of that.

Instead of the story of Jesus being a spin off of this Myth, the Myth is a prophecy of what is to come in Jesus, just like many of the OT stories.

these stories will appear in history becuase God who is a perfect being who created the universe has a pattern in his creation meaning that stories will appear multiple times in history even if just as myths.

any problems with my argument?
I’m probably wrong because history isn’t my strong subject but here’s my thoughts on this.

Some of these myths came about during Jesus’ life and/or AFTER… which leads me to think the story of his life and resurrection was passed around and eventually morphed to accomodate the local customs.

Now, I’d have to see the myths that are older then Him to really refute and/or discuss them. My guess is that they aren’t as similar as people would assume. 🙂
 
one guys says that horus is pretty much an exact copy of jesus christ well he thinks its the other way around, jesus is an exact copy of horus.

anyone know alot about this story
 
one guys says that horus is pretty much an exact copy of jesus christ well he thinks its the other way around, jesus is an exact copy of horus.

anyone know alot about this story
I wouls say that he does not know Horus very well, the Egyptian god of hunting, a warrior god associated with the falcon. He is considered to be continually reincarnated as the pharaoh. A simple search will show you the differences.

However, this sort of correlation shows the exact logic error made (deliberately) by Alexander Hislop. Just because two things have similarities does not mean there is a relationship. Have you ever seen the movie Office Space where one of the computer geeks is name Michael Bolton? People continue to ask him if he was related, or assume he must like the music of Bolton. In history, there are thousands upon thousands of myths and stories. It is unavoidable that some will look familiar to each other or to something real. Even a broken clock is on time twice a day. For every myth that seems to match the narrative of Jesus one can find many more that do not.
 
I wouls say that he does not know Horus very well, the Egyptian god of hunting, a warrior god associated with the falcon. He is considered to be continually reincarnated as the pharaoh. A simple search will show you the differences.

However, this sort of correlation shows the exact logic error made (deliberately) by Alexander Hislop. Just because two things have similarities does not mean there is a relationship. Have you ever seen the movie Office Space where one of the computer geeks is name Michael Bolton? People continue to ask him if he was related, or assume he must like the music of Bolton. In history, there are thousands upon thousands of myths and stories. It is unavoidable that some will look familiar to each other or to something real. Even a broken clock is on time twice a day. For every myth that seems to match the narrative of Jesus one can find many more that do not.
there is this thread on another message board im on and the zietigeist movie was the OP well a link so i wanted to see what people here thought about it.
 
one of the classic objects to religion is that atheist say that the stories of Jesus Mary the virgin along with other things come from the anicent religions like the Egyptians Babylonians have stories that are a part of our christian religion. The athesist think that becuase we “steal” those stories or we have the same stories i can’t possibly be true meaning all religion is not true meaning there is no good.

what do you think is a good way to reject this argument?

I think you explain the connections as ways God reveled himself through history.

If some ancient religion had a myth that a guy who was divine in nature, came to teach in the world, then sacrificed himself for a group of people.

or a story along the lines of that.

Instead of the story of Jesus being a spin off of this Myth, the Myth is a prophecy of what is to come in Jesus, just like many of the OT stories.

these stories will appear in history becuase God who is a perfect being who created the universe has a pattern in his creation meaning that stories will appear multiple times in history even if just as myths.

any problems with my argument?
I think it was Edwin Bevan who in “symbolism and belief” said “We can call the attempt to refute Theism by displaying the continuity of the belief in God with primitive delusion the method of anthropological intimidation.” or something like that. It could be a useful quotation to have available.

Ask for their sources. For example, even skeptics admit that the gospel of Mark was written no later than 40 years after Jesus’ death, while the letters of Paul as early as 20 years after his death. Ask what their source is for the claims that Horus (or other paganisms) are similar to Jesus and ask how early those sources are.

Point out that we have good historical evidence for the Resurrection, while we don’t for the other heathen dying and rebirths.
For example most scholars will admit 3 facts:
1). Jesus was buried and his tomb was found empty 3 days later. (according to Habermas 75% of scholars admit this)
2). Jesus disciples experienced appearances of the risen Christ (even the skeptic Luddeman admits this, though he tries to claim it was just hallucinations)
3). Jesus’ disciples came to believe that Jesus rose from the death, even though it contradicted ancient belief that a). Resurrection would happen to all God’s people at once, b). it would happen at the end of time.
The best explanation of these three facts is that Jesus really rose from the dead.

Ask for comparable evidence of any pagan resurrection. There is none and this shows we are rationally justified in believing the Resurrection, but not the pagan stories of dying and rising gods.

You can point out too that excellent schoalrs today defend the resurrection, but none defend the heath ones or consider them on the same level. The argument I just summarized very briefly above for the resurrection is most developed by N.T. Wright (The Resurrection of the Son of God ca.700pg.) and William Lane Craig. (The Son Rise ca. 100 pages). They’ve also written shorter works too.

It’s totally legit to point out that we belief in the Resurrection because there is good evidence for it and no comparable evidence for the pagan ones. It’s just you have to be able to cite the evidence. Criag has a shorter summary of the evidence in his apologetics book “On Guard,” that might be the best place to look.
 
It doesn’t matter whether or not the myths were recorded 20 minutes, 20 years, or 200 years after the events that supposedly inspired them. It doesn’t matter if the myths are purely works of fiction. What does matter is whether or not the myths existed before Christ. That’s the point that non-believers are making, not that there is truth within the myths, but that the story of Christ is just another myth which rose out of a blending of earlier ones.

Are there really similarities between the myths and the story of Jesus and, if so, what are they? Do those myths really predate Christ? Do your research. Only then will you be able to thoroughly defend your position against a non believer. Facts is facts!
 
Darn, I wish I was the first one to post this in this thread.

Ok, now that I have your attention. The way to refute this “argument” is to explain the truth. ALL - ALL - of the alleged parallels to pagan stories are wholly fabricated. Two books I recommend:

The Gospel and Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

Shattering the Christ Myth: Did Jesus not Exist?

Two good books to start. There are probably better ones, but these are the ones that I have. Many of the pagan parallels actually occur hundreds of years after the Gospels so that it was the pagans that copied Christianity! Christianity was very popular and its mythos was plagiarized!
 
Windfish, you are either a complete bs artist or really, really ignorant.

Those stories of rising son of god hero figures predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

Even a catholic church father, Justin Martyr admits this.

The previous poster knows the spin answer to this problem.

It is the demons who anticipate the coming of Christ and try and trick the true believers!
 
Windfish, you are either a complete bs artist or really, really ignorant.

Those stories of rising son of god hero figures predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

Even a catholic church father, Justin Martyr admits this.

The previous poster knows the spin answer to this problem.

It is the demons who anticipate the coming of Christ and try and trick the true believers!
No, they do not. These have been debunked so many times. I will humor you, though: give me examples. Give me the earliest dates for those examples. Give me the books and scholars where you got this information from.
 
I’ll give you something from the Church Fathers…

CHAPTER XXI – ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

CHAPTER XXII – ANALOGIES TO THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST.

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior–or rather have already proved Him to be so–for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.

CHAPTER XXIII – THE ARGUMENT.

And that this may now become evident to you–(firstly) that whatever we assert in conformity with what has been taught us by Christ, and by the prophets who preceded Him, are alone true, and are older than all the writers who have existed; that we claim to be acknowledged, not because we say the same things as these writers said, but because we say true things: and (secondly) that Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race: and (thirdly) that before He became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions, of which there is neither witness nor proof–we shall bring forward the following proof.

CHAPTER XXIV – VARIETIES OF HEATHEN WORSHIP.

In the first place [we furnish proof], because, though we say things similar to what the Greeks say, we only are hated on account of the name of Christ, and though we do no wrong, are put to death as sinners; other men in other places worshipping trees and rivers, and mice and cats and crocodiles, and many irrational animals. Nor are the same animals esteemed by all; but in one place one is worshipped, and another in another, so that all are profane in the judgment of one another, on account of their not worshipping the same objects. And this is the sole accusation you bring against us, that we do not reverence the same gods as you do, nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues, and sacrifices. For you very well know that the same animals are with some esteemed gods, with others wild beasts, and with others sacrificial victims.
 
Cont’d…

In a nutshell, Justin Martyr is saying that our beliefs are similar to yours…but ours are true, yours aren’t. All I can say to that is…sure they are, sure they are. 🙂

CHAPTER XXV – FALSE GODS ABANDONED BY CHRISTIANS.

And, secondly, because we–who, out of every race of men, used to worship Bacchus the son of Semele, and Apollo the son of Latona (who in their loves with men did such things as it is shameful even to mention), and Proserpine and Venus (who were maddened with love of Adonis, and whose mysteries also you celebrate), or AEsculapius, or some one or other of those who are called gods–have now, through Jesus Christ, learned to despise these, though we be threatened with death for it, and have dedicated ourselves to the unbegotten and impossible God; of whom we are persuaded that never was he goaded by lust of Antiope, or such other women, or of Ganymede, nor was rescued by that hundred-handed giant whose aid was obtained through Thetis, nor was anxious on this account that her son Achilles should destroy many of the Greeks because of his concubine Briseis. Those who believe these things we pity, and those who invented them we know to be devils.

CHAPTER XXVI – MAGICIANS NOT TRUSTED BY CHRISTIANS.

And, thirdly, because after Christ’s ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecuted by you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statue was erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome:–
 
Uh… ok. Way to not adress the issue… at all. I don’t understand what you think this proves. I haven’t researches Justin Martyr’s writings, but we do know for a fact that all of the parallels used by skeptics today either 1) post-date Jesus and were plagiarized from the Gospels 2) totally fabricated.
 
could someone please tell me if my argument against this idea is a good argument or not a good argument
 
could someone please tell me if my argument against this idea is a good argument or not a good argument
I think it is a good argument but not one that is necessary. Part of the beauty of Catholicism is how it recognizes that God was preparing other cultures to receive Jesus Christ with “points of contact” - things that are similar between the two cultures. However, I don’t think it’s an argument that is necessary in this case. Dionysus, Mithras, Horus, etc. they’re all bunk.
 
It is very true that outside religions had an impact on Judaism, which would allow for the formation of Christianity. Zoroastrian was the ancient Babylonian religion, which had a “God,” a “Devil,” and a Son, and there was a battle for good and evil. Judgement Day was also here with a heaven and a hell.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Just a quick brush up if you need to read up

But Christianity, imo, is not based on these teachings. Sure, they may have been influenced, but it is logical to accept Jesus as a real person in history. Base your beliefs on Jesus’ life and teachings.
 
Darn, I wish I was the first one to post this in this thread.

Ok, now that I have your attention. The way to refute this “argument” is to explain the truth. ALL - ALL - of the alleged parallels to pagan stories are wholly fabricated. Two books I recommend:

The Gospel and Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

Shattering the Christ Myth: Did Jesus not Exist?

Two good books to start. There are probably better ones, but these are the ones that I have. Many of the pagan parallels actually occur hundreds of years after the Gospels so that it was the pagans that copied Christianity! Christianity was very popular and its mythos was plagiarized!
And I would like to recommend the book

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mNeB7bl7L.SL500_AA300.jpg

even though I know you are to ignorant to read it :rolleyes:
 
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