Atheist Countries Doing Well?

[Kaninchen]

The pejorative you introduced then dismissed will be ignored.

The “European” definition you gave for socialism is actually the definition for communism.

Socialism is where the government collects the assets from people and redistributes it evenly. Essentially, taking little from the poor and giving them much while taking much from the wealthy and giving them little. It is a very intrusive form of government in that it is typified by significant regulation and large number of restrictive laws. Community ownership may or amy not be part of it. However the Nordic countries do have some state-owned business, such as mines, oil companies, etc.

While American definitions are, I’m sure, terribly useful in understanding the US as Americans understand the US, European definitions tend to work best for understanding Europe.

Communism is, classically, the final stage of socialism - the difference being that ownership would be no longer vested in the State (which would wither away) - ‘workers control’ in other words (so not common ownership . . .).

The ‘Scandinavian model’ is a variation of the European ‘social democratic’ tradition which really has two themes - social insurance systems (including social medicine) and greater or lesser levels of State ownership of (mainly) public utilities.

Your characterization of the way in which it works is, of course, that of an American Conservative. One could use similarly loaded terms to describe how America works (I’ve lived in the US, I’m not exactly naive about it) - as I did in joking about an American Conservative appreciation of ‘socialist’ only to conjure one up.

 

[ProPatria]

It has nothing to do with atheism.

Those are all socialist societies, which can be sustained for a certain amount of time, but eventually they will get the socialist disease: “they run out of other peoples’ money”. The taxation level in all those countries is so high, that the smart capital tries to flee them. Norway has its huge oil revenue, which helps to maintain their socialism for quite a long time.

And this comes from an atheist (and libertarian). I do not have time to go deeper into this subject, but economical setups and general worldview (theism or atheism) have nothing to do with each other.

I just love it when people who have absolutely no real knowledge of our society feel that they are able to call us socialists. Finland is not a socialist country. We fought a civil war in 1918 when an illegal rebellion that was orchestrated by socialists (which also, however, saw oppressed farmers and poor people fight for their rights, but in a wrong way) was crushed and we defended our homeland from Stalin’s communism and barbaric Soviet invaders in 1939 and 1944. Just because we have equal rights for all citizens regardless of their wealth and practically free education, please don’t call Finland a socialist country.
God Bless

Ylistetty olkoon Herra, Israelin Jumala! - Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!

 

[thirddec]

Tell that to the Chinese Communists who after a major analysis of why the west became as dominant as it did taking into account all factors the one they felt had the biggest impact was Christianity. I cant be bothered finding link but you can track it i’m sure

 

[StrawberryJam]

I just love it when people who have absolutely no real knowledge of our society feel that they are able to call us socialists. Finland is not a socialist country. We fought a civil war in 1918 when an illegal rebellion that was orchestrated by socialists (which also, however, saw oppressed farmers and poor people fight for their rights, but in a wrong way) was crushed and we defended our homeland from Stalin’s communism and barbaric Soviet invaders in 1939 and 1944. Just because we have equal rights for all citizens regardless of their wealth and practically free education, please don’t call Finland a socialist country.
God Bless

Ylistetty olkoon Herra, Israelin Jumala! - Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!

What a surprise!

Minun Aiti oli fyntynyt Suomessa.

Left at age 12.

I only know basic words, sorry if it is not understandable.

Welcome to this place!

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

It has nothing to do with atheism.

Those are all socialist societies, which can be sustained for a certain amount of time, but eventually they will get the socialist disease: “they run out of other peoples’ money”. The taxation level in all those countries is so high, that the smart capital tries to flee them. Norway has its huge oil revenue, which helps to maintain their socialism for quite a long time.

And this comes from an atheist (and libertarian). I do not have time to go deeper into this subject, but economical setups and general worldview (theism or atheism) have nothing to do with each other.

Bingo!

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[StrawberryJam]

It has nothing to do with atheism.

Those are all socialist societies, which can be sustained for a certain amount of time, but eventually they will get the socialist disease: “they run out of other peoples’ money”. The taxation level in all those countries is so high, that the smart capital tries to flee them. Norway has its huge oil revenue, which helps to maintain their socialism for quite a long time.

And this comes from an atheist (and libertarian). I do not have time to go deeper into this subject, but economical setups and general worldview (theism or atheism) have nothing to do with each other.

When speaking of Finland this does not make sense. Finland is in uproar over Finland support of bankrupt catholic countries.
Let catholics take care of Portugal. Let them also take care of Spain and Italy.

 

[ProPatria]

What a surprise!

Minun Aiti oli fyntynyt Suomessa.

Left at age 12.

I only know basic words, sorry if it is not understandable.

Welcome to this place!

That’s amazing!
Even if you do know just some basic words, I’m glad you know the word äiti, since it’s such an important word.
Do you know where in Finland your äiti was born? I live in Helsinki in Southern Finland.
Thanks for the welcome!
God Bless

 

[ProPatria]

When speaking of Finland this does not make sense. Finland is in uproar over Finland support of bankrupt catholic countries.
Let catholics take care of Portugal. Let them also take care of Spain and Italy.

It’s true, Finland is in uproar for supporting bankrupt countries (we just had a parliamentary election, where a populist party that opposes financial aid to these countries got 39 seats of 200 and will likely have some ministers in the next government) but especially helping the Eastern Orthodox Greece has caused a lot of anger, especially because the Greeks are constantly having strikes. The way we see it, since they created the problem, they should solve it.
God Bless

 

[GraceDK]

Some people have claimed that countries with high rates of atheism are doing well in some areas, they would even argue BETTER than predominantely Christian nations. They cite examples like Norway, Finland, and Sweden who have more people who don’t believe in God than people who do, and they say they have the longest life expectancy, the best GDPs per capita, high literacy, good health, etc. They say if atheism is so bad, why are these countries doing so well?

What is a good response to this question? I would just like to let everyone know that I’m a devout Catholic, I receive the sacraments and fully agree with the Church. I just want a good response to these questions. Thanks.

Dear Phil.
Western Europe is still quite influenced by the ethical code of the people who are getting old, and the few previous generations, which were all much influenced by at least Christian norms.

The world has yet to see what comes out of the alternative to Christianity… is atheism able to be a fulfilling grounds for democracy?
The last hundred years have shown us nazism, communism and fascism which were anti-religious systems of atheism, and they all costed more death and destruction and intolerance than all religious wars combined in all of history.

In the West now we have a utilitarian view on man, that is, we earn alot of Euro while our children are put away in full days daycare from the age of one, we put our children to death in abortion by millions, we kill the old and the sick under the name of compassion-killing. marriages are breaking apart. Young people experience more and more violence in their relationships. More and more young people engage in cutting and other self-destructive acts…

The last many years we have seen divorce numbers rise to unthinkable hights.
We see a growing number of dysfunctional little children who suffer from stress and psychological problems… this is happening much in eg. Sweden.
We have films and books that tell us to pursue our own happiness and egocentric interests at the expense of our families and our health, and any objective moral norms.
Even atheistic society critics foresee the collapse of Europe from being a decent civilisation … like it happend to the Roman Empire… peopele got promiscuous, no men wanted to marry, women bought little dogs instead of making families…

Thats one of the reasons why Islamic immigration is a real menace too… because the Western civilisation is undermining itself… its the tyranny of relativism like the Pope said.

At the moment we are in the midst of an experiment which cannot go well, why? because the experiment involves a dehumanising ethic, that is, an ethic that doesn’t recognize what human nature is. This is the beginning of the collapse…

 

[Keeler]

I just love it when people who have absolutely no real knowledge of our society feel that they are able to call us socialists. Finland is not a socialist country. We fought a civil war in 1918 when an illegal rebellion that was orchestrated by socialists (which also, however, saw oppressed farmers and poor people fight for their rights, but in a wrong way) was crushed and we defended our homeland from Stalin’s communism and barbaric Soviet invaders in 1939 and 1944. Just because we have equal rights for all citizens regardless of their wealth and practically free education, please don’t call Finland a socialist country.

Unfortunately I have no recollection what my password for Ateista used to be, so I must answer you under my current pen-name. But I am the same guy. You mistake the label “socialist” to mean a political label (along the lines of socialist and communist). It is not. It is the description of an economic model of high taxation, and consequently high concentration of spending power in the hands of the politicians, whose only qualification is that they were able to bamboozle the uncaring voters into voting for them.

Sadly, the Western countries are under the same model these day. They are all socialistic, though some groups start to see how unhealthy that setup is for the economy. By the way, for the sake of those who keep on bringing up “democracy” let’s reiterate the definition of it: “Democracy is when two wolves ons one lamb are voting what will be for dinner tonight”.

 

[Warrenton]

In looking at the proseperity of the Scandinavian countries, one must baer in mind that they are heavily subsidised by larger countries. The United States has underwritten western Europe’s defense for 60 years - which has freed up resources for those countries to use in social programs. We see this playing out now in Libya.

Lest Europeans get angry with me - I hasten to add that this was probably more or less intentional on the NATO countries’ part, since it played into the larger strategy of anti Soviet geopolitics.

The United States is approaching the point when it can not support the cost of maintaining NATO military hegemony alone. As the cold war era policies change, and more defense costs (and other costs, such as the regulation of international trade) devolve back to NATO member states, we will probably see the prosperity of northern countries change.

Mighty armies are expensive, sad to say.